SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 25 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: There are many surround speakers out there now, but the ones below would have to get my highest reco
Mirage OMD5 (or any other Mirage Omnipole) 24 22.02%
JBL P520WS / Infinity ES-250 / Infinity Classia C255ES (Dual-monopole for 4 channels from 2 speakers, but also Bipole & Dipole switchable) 5 4.59%
Axiom QS8 or QS4 (Unique Quadpole design) 28 25.69%
Paradigm ADP (Many models available with this design, where the tweeters run Dipole, but the woofers are Bipole) 20 18.35%
Monitor Audio BXFX or RXFX (Single woofer, but the tweeters can switch to either Dipole or Bipole) 14 12.84%
Monitor Audio GXFX (6 drivers, including a ribbon. (Monopole / Dipole switchable) 12 11.01%
KEF 26/2DS (Dipole only, alas... but with two 6.5 inch side woofers and a front-firing 8 inch!!! ) 6 5.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll

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post #721 of 749 Old 08-08-2014, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
Some people prefer diffused or spread sound. Depends on the room too.

If the sofa was right up against the back wall, no way I'd use monopoles, even if they're the coaxial type which generally have a wider dispersion and central sound point source.

I have heard M&K tripoles, forget the model maybe K and S series. Like the S series but too expensive for me.
It's not about preference per se with Dolby Atmos or any other object based format, it's how the content is recorded and also delivered to theaters and to the home. Monopoles work best, dipoles "confuse" and "blur" the 3D imaging set up by the Atmos rendering processor. The only speakers that could be a bit more diffuse are the ceiling surrounds, but they still call for something more akin to bipoles or monopoles with at least a 90 degree by 90 degree dispersion pattern.

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post #722 of 749 Old 08-08-2014, 02:30 PM
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Not trying to start an long hypothetical discussion but until Atmos is in the wild I am not convinced that dipoles or bipoles may not have a place depending on the room and set-up. I have a sofa near wall and plan to use my bipoles with Atmos when I get a new receiver.
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post #723 of 749 Old 08-08-2014, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
Not trying to start an long hypothetical discussion but until Atmos is in the wild I am not convinced that dipoles or bipoles may not have a place depending on the room and set-up. I have a sofa near wall and plan to use my bipoles with Atmos when I get a new receiver.
I think bipoles may be more acceptable than dipoles, especially for ceiling surrounds. Dipoles create an artificial diffusion due to the two sets of drivers being wired out of phase, creating a null between the two sets of drivers. From what I'm reading and hearing about Atmos and DTS MDA (aka DTS-UHD), that is not what you want to have happen.

Any diffusion or reverb is in the mix itself, but you also want a more directionalized effect as well, especially since dialog is now often panned into the surrounds aggressively. That also calls for strict timbre matching of all the speakers in a system.

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post #724 of 749 Old 08-08-2014, 03:59 PM
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That also calls for strict timbre matching of all the speakers in a system.
Not possible.

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post #725 of 749 Old 08-08-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
Not possible.
Sure it is, especially if you're building anew or expanding a system with more speakers (there are always caveats due to the age of the speakers or the manufacturer's product line being too limited, etc.). It will hopefully get easier to do so as companies embrace object based surround, which is starting a paradigm shift in the industry. Things, they are a-changin'.

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post #726 of 749 Old 08-08-2014, 04:50 PM
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No it isn't. For many reasons I've already given. I have no desire to change speakers to new ones. And they don't make matching surround speakers.

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post #727 of 749 Old 08-09-2014, 06:38 AM
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@Dan Hitchman

hey thanks for youre advise. i already sold my dipole/bipole speakers, to replace it with center speaker RC LCR for my surrounds and also get timbre match with my fronts. question, i know the RC LCR is a center channel, if im placing them for my surrounds, which is better position do i need to place them horizontal or vertical? thanks.

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post #728 of 749 Old 08-09-2014, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
@Dan Hitchman

hey thanks for youre advise. i already sold my dipole/bipole speakers, to replace it with center speaker RC LCR for my surrounds and also get timbre match with my fronts. question, i know the RC LCR is a center channel, if im placing them for my surrounds, which is better position do i need to place them horizontal or vertical? thanks.
Fantastic!

The Energy RC LCR, in actuality, is designed as a vertically aligned monitor that can be used for the left, center, or right channel positions (as well as surrounds). Definitely place them vertically.

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post #729 of 749 Old 08-09-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Fantastic!

The Energy RC LCR, in actuality, is designed as a vertically aligned monitor that can be used for the left, center, or right channel positions (as well as surrounds). Definitely place them vertically.
Gotcha! Thanks. I'm getting ready for atmos 5.1.2.
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post #730 of 749 Old 08-09-2014, 09:22 AM
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Gotcha! Thanks. I'm getting ready for atmos 5.1.2.
Do you have a line on any particular Atmos capable receiver?

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post #731 of 749 Old 08-09-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Do you have a line on any particular Atmos capable receiver?
not at the moment. any receiver that you can recommend? im looking from one of the denon new avr with atmos. but its a little bit pricey. maybe wait for a couple of years to get one.

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post #732 of 749 Old 08-09-2014, 12:57 PM
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not at the moment. any receiver that you can recommend? im looking from one of the denon new avr with atmos. but its a little bit pricey. maybe wait for a couple of years to get one.
I would wait until next year's models and hopefully they will then have HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 encryption.

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post #733 of 749 Old 08-18-2014, 05:17 PM
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I'm about to get some bipoles so I will add my opinion to the discussion soon.

I don't know, is RB-41 II even a bipole? It's kind of a weird mix. With a front firing woofer and angled tweeters. It might be perfect for me and my room arrangement though.

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post #734 of 749 Old 08-18-2014, 05:43 PM
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I'm about to get some bipoles so I will add my opinion to the discussion soon.

I don't know, is RS-41 II even a bipole? It's kind of a weird mix. With a front firing woofer and angled tweeters. It might be perfect for me and my room arrangement though.
It's still mostly a dipole. If you're thinking of doing Atmos as some point... not recommended.

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post #735 of 749 Old 08-18-2014, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
It's still mostly a dipole. If you're thinking of doing Atmos as some point... not recommended.
Probably not for a long while. Now if it doesn't sound great then I'll replace it with a RB. Curious though, I thought dipoles were speakers that fired in 2 directions completely opposite of each other? I thought a bipole is what the Klipsch surrounds are. Angled outward but not completely polar opposite firing.

Plus klipsch claims they are both good at directionality and ambiance. They use some PR lingo for it. I'll find out soon enough.

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post #736 of 749 Old 08-18-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Teremei View Post
Probably not for a long while. Now if it doesn't sound great then I'll replace it with a RB. Curious though, I thought dipoles were speakers that fired in 2 directions completely opposite of each other? I thought a bipole is what the Klipsch surrounds are. Angled outward but not completely polar opposite firing.

Plus klipsch claims they are both good at directionality and ambiance. They use some PR lingo for it. I'll find out soon enough.
The horns of the Klipsch's are wired out of phase... a dipole speaker trait. Bipole speakers fire in two directions, but are wired in-phase like a normal speaker. Dipoles, in particular, are not recommended for Atmos and DTS-UHD because they cause phasing problems with these types of object based formats where the ambient presence is embedded in the mix already.

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post #737 of 749 Old 08-18-2014, 10:42 PM
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I see, well I'm still demoing my RS-41. Not sure if I like stepping down from a 5.25" woofer to a 4" one. Even if it was an entry level. I don't want to derail the thread. But so far it doesn't seem to provide much more ambience, just more clarity. But that's a biproduct of the horn. I might try the RB-51 since that's the closest match to what I had before.

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post #738 of 749 Old 09-05-2014, 10:13 AM
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Question for some of the experts out there. I have a legacy speaker system I bought years ago: the cambridge soundworks movieworks 5.1 system. The package consists of LCR satellites/bookshelfs, an acoustic suspension sub and (where my question is concerned) bipole/dipole switchable rears. These speakers served me well for years as an apartment dweller but I've recently moved into a condo where I have more room. While I would love to upgrade my audio system the budget's been a little tight lately and with Panasonic exiting the plasma business-- which forced me into an 11th hour TV purchase last year when I really didn't need a new display-- I'm going to have to make do with my Cambridge Soundworks for a little while longer in my media room/theater.

My media 'room' is really the end of my walk-out basement (basement is an 'L' shape). I sit about 8 feet from the front wall which is about 7 feet from butt-to-screen. I picked this spot as the 'room' is 19 feet long and this is roughly 40% of the way into the room (ahead of the room's midpoint bass null) and a great distance to maximize the relatively small 55" VT60. The room is carpeted and is finished with dry wall. Initially I am getting a lot of slap back so I want to add some acoustic panels to the walls. I have two 2'x4' panels each 4" thick that I will be mounting on adjacent walls left and right of the soundstage (with a third I plan to mount in the rear corner in the back of the room). My rears are mounted just above ear level left and right of the seating position

Here's my question. By my measurements the rears will only be about 2 feet (possibly a few inches less once things are finalized) from the back of the acoustic panels. Is this going to affect their performance or blunt their impact? I'm specifically trying to limit first reflections of the front sound stage but I didn't stop to think that the rears largly depend on refections to operate. Thanks in advance for any advice.

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post #739 of 749 Old 09-06-2014, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Question for some of the experts out there. I have a legacy speaker system I bought years ago: the cambridge soundworks movieworks 5.1 system. The package consists of LCR satellites/bookshelfs, an acoustic suspension sub and (where my question is concerned) bipole/dipole switchable rears. These speakers served me well for years as an apartment dweller but I've recently moved into a condo where I have more room. While I would love to upgrade my audio system the budget's been a little tight lately and with Panasonic exiting the plasma business-- which forced me into an 11th hour TV purchase last year when I really didn't need a new display-- I'm going to have to make do with my Cambridge Soundworks for a little while longer in my media room/theater.

My media 'room' is really the end of my walk-out basement (basement is an 'L' shape). I sit about 8 feet from the front wall which is about 7 feet from butt-to-screen. I picked this spot as the 'room' is 19 feet long and this is roughly 40% of the way into the room (ahead of the room's midpoint bass null) and a great distance to maximize the relatively small 55" VT60. The room is carpeted and is finished with dry wall. Initially I am getting a lot of slap back so I want to add some acoustic panels to the walls. I have two 2'x4' panels each 4" thick that I will be mounting on adjacent walls left and right of the soundstage (with a third I plan to mount in the rear corner in the back of the room). My rears are mounted just above ear level left and right of the seating position

Here's my question. By my measurements the rears will only be about 2 feet (possibly a few inches less once things are finalized) from the back of the acoustic panels. Is this going to affect their performance or blunt their impact? I'm specifically trying to limit first reflections of the front sound stage but I didn't stop to think that the rears largly depend on refections to operate. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Anybody?
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post #740 of 749 Old 09-06-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Anybody?
So the dipoles will be mounted at your side position with panels right behind them on the wall, and the other panels are directly against the rear corners? Well, if the dipole drivers are angled outwards like a lot of other dipoles, the direction that they're pointing will be enough to keep the reflective effect since they can still reflect off the exposed back wall (assuming there's enough back wall). Dipoles can still work optimally when there are panels as long as the enitre room isn't covered.
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post #741 of 749 Old 09-07-2014, 01:56 PM
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I have had monopoles and currently dipoles (swan R3), placement is a big factor overall. Monopoles give a direct sound and a more in your face effect like bullets flying across the room. The dipoles are more diffuse and enveloping like it sounds like it is raining in the room good for ambient noises. I say go for a 7.1, 9.1, 11.1 system with monopoles and you will get the best of both worlds.
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post #742 of 749 Old 09-07-2014, 01:58 PM
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I have had monopoles and currently dipoles (swan R3), placement is a big factor overall. Monopoles give a direct sound and a more in your face effect like bullets flying across the room. The dipoles are more diffuse and enveloping like it sounds like it is raining in the room good for ambient noises. I say go for a 7.1, 9.1, 11.1 system with monopoles and you will get the best of both worlds.
Atmos works better with wide dispersal monopoles. Timbre matching is important. EQ cannot magically make every speaker model sound the same.

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post #743 of 749 Old 09-07-2014, 03:59 PM
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So the dipoles will be mounted at your side position with panels right behind them on the wall, and the other panels are directly against the rear corners? Well, if the dipole drivers are angled outwards like a lot of other dipoles, the direction that they're pointing will be enough to keep the reflective effect since they can still reflect off the exposed back wall (assuming there's enough back wall). Dipoles can still work optimally when there are panels as long as the enitre room isn't covered.
Yes the speakers fire directly fore and aft. The panels are actually in front of the rears with the edge of the panel exactly 20" from the front firing driver (I measured).

I actually hung the panels over this weekend and tested my system. Sounds good! Like I said this is a very modest surround system but as it's my personal media room and I just upgraded my TV I'll have to stick with this audio system for awhile. Maybe next year I can start looking at upgrading. I've had my eye on the Andrew Jones set from Pioneer as I've had some experience with them and they left me mightily impressed considering the ridiculously low price. Problem is if I upgrade my speakers I'll need a new receiver as well as the Onkyo I'm using now is very modest in power output. My old Yamaha was actually more powerful but lacked DTS decoding which I needed for Bluray (it's a long story but my old Samsung 2500 bluray player with onboard decoding for DTS wasn't 3d compatible and it was actually cheaper to upgrade to an inexpensive Panasonic 3d bluray player and the Onkyo receiver with the sales last Chrstmas than it was to buy the Oppo 3d bluray player with the analog outs I needed).

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post #744 of 749 Old 09-07-2014, 05:31 PM
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post #745 of 749 Old 09-11-2014, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Yes the speakers fire directly fore and aft. The panels are actually in front of the rears with the edge of the panel exactly 20" from the front firing driver (I measured).

I actually hung the panels over this weekend and tested my system. Sounds good! Like I said this is a very modest surround system but as it's my personal media room and I just upgraded my TV I'll have to stick with this audio system for awhile. Maybe next year I can start looking at upgrading. I've had my eye on the Andrew Jones set from Pioneer as I've had some experience with them and they left me mightily impressed considering the ridiculously low price. Problem is if I upgrade my speakers I'll need a new receiver as well as the Onkyo I'm using now is very modest in power output. My old Yamaha was actually more powerful but lacked DTS decoding which I needed for Bluray (it's a long story but my old Samsung 2500 bluray player with onboard decoding for DTS wasn't 3d compatible and it was actually cheaper to upgrade to an inexpensive Panasonic 3d bluray player and the Onkyo receiver with the sales last Chrstmas than it was to buy the Oppo 3d bluray player with the analog outs I needed).
That's cool that it worked out for you. If you liked the Pioneers than yeah it makes sense to consider something that you're familiar with. If you want a set that comes with a dipole check out the Phase Tech v52s with the V Surrounds. This one has front-firing drivers with the tweeters out of phase. It's reasonably priced with excellent sound quality. S&V has a review of these. I had this set for awhile but I had to give it up only because it was black and the speakers had to match an old but nice cherry cabinet.
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post #746 of 749 Old 09-11-2014, 09:50 AM
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I just purchased a pair of Infinity Reference RS152 surround speakers. http://www.infinityspeakers.com/esto...RS152BK_INF_US




I think these are Bipolar speakers. (Please correct me if I am wrong). I would like to mount them to my back wall, but I am unsure how high they should be. Any advice would be helpful.


Thanks


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post #747 of 749 Old 09-12-2014, 06:42 AM
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Generally ear height or one or two feet above ear height.

I can't see what type it is. But why do some speaker makers put so much effort in fronts and so little in rears? I don't like Infinity Reference RS152 driver arrangement, prefer one with a midange that is front firing. I borrowed a few surround speakers, one just had treble driver, another with one woofer but two treble (uneven effect) prefer mirrored treble/midrange. Lower woofer isn't essential but if it has it..

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post #748 of 749 Old Today, 07:47 PM
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hello everyone.

i have an issue. my sides are not cutting it any more. they just are not large enough = will not handle the volume i want to play them at.
ENERGY RVSS

so i want to get something that can handle it. but since i have not been on the HT forums in a while , idk what the current thinking is = bi's di's mono's. my room is 14' wide and about 40' long. the theater is at one end. and the seats are about 12'ish from the 119" screen. with the sides about 7' up on the wall, right even with the seats. 9' ceiling. right now i am only running 5.2, as i do not have the time to run new wires/mounts for 7.2. but i am ok with that, as long as what i have is working properly.

So, what type of sides are recommended ?

thanx a ton.

oh. what is ATMOS ?

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post #749 of 749 Old Today, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Fabricator View Post
hello everyone.

i have an issue. my sides are not cutting it any more. they just are not large enough = will not handle the volume i want to play them at.
ENERGY RVSS

so i want to get something that can handle it. but since i have not been on the HT forums in a while , idk what the current thinking is = bi's di's mono's. my room is 14' wide and about 40' long. the theater is at one end. and the seats are about 12'ish from the 119" screen. with the sides about 7' up on the wall, right even with the seats. 9' ceiling. right now i am only running 5.2, as i do not have the time to run new wires/mounts for 7.2. but i am ok with that, as long as what i have is working properly.

So, what type of sides are recommended ?

thanx a ton.

oh. what is ATMOS ?
This is at-home Dolby Atmos (I heard it at CEDIA and it is fantastic - in historical perspective, it's like going from black & white to color TV!!):

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...y-atmos.html#2


You will want to lower your surrounds to no more than just above your listeners' heads, if you possibly can, especially if installing the proper on or in-ceiling overhead speakers. There should be a good distance between the main layer of speakers and the overheads for the best 3D envelopment. You can do a 5.2.4 layout with the room you have.

You will want wide dispersion monopoles, hopefully from the same model family as your main front speakers. Dipoles, at least, are out. People are still wondering about the role of bipoles with these new 3D audio formats. The surrounds and overheads should be capable of dishing out some powerful sound as the surround effects are far more aggressive and can be full range. Dialog placement can also come from anywhere in the room, which really emphasizes the need for similarly voiced speakers.

Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, and Yamaha have mainstream Atmos receivers and pre-amps out or being released this year and early next.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; Today at 08:16 PM.
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