SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 28 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: There are many surround speakers out there now, but the ones below would have to get my highest reco
Mirage OMD5 (or any other Mirage Omnipole) 34 22.37%
JBL P520WS / Infinity ES-250 / Infinity Classia C255ES (Dual-monopole for 4 channels from 2 speakers, but also Bipole & Dipole switchable) 9 5.92%
Axiom QS8 or QS4 (Unique Quadpole design) 41 26.97%
Paradigm ADP (Many models available with this design, where the tweeters run Dipole, but the woofers are Bipole) 24 15.79%
Monitor Audio BXFX or RXFX (Single woofer, but the tweeters can switch to either Dipole or Bipole) 19 12.50%
Monitor Audio GXFX (6 drivers, including a ribbon. (Monopole / Dipole switchable) 17 11.18%
KEF 26/2DS (Dipole only, alas... but with two 6.5 inch side woofers and a front-firing 8 inch!!! ) 11 7.24%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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post #811 of 903 Old 12-27-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Listen to Dan, for in ceiling you want backer boxes to control sound leakage to other areas, plus the design is tuned better when a known back box size is there. I have Paradigm in ceiling in my rec room and wife's craft room. They work fine but not containing the sound leaks to the main floor.


Via Mikes brain/thumb interface, LLAP

Yes I have read Dan's posts before and tons of good info , so glad we have a chat going.


Correct me if wrong but the Triad's have boxes or are enclosed already? I am just concerned about the DIY box approach for a speaker that wasn't built with one from the manufacturer.

Again trying to accomplish a lot I know but a good balance of everything is probably where I need to land. Trying to do the research obviously :-)
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post #812 of 903 Old 12-27-2014, 06:26 PM
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I am not one to push the volume in my estimation haha...never had a "dedicated room" before so who knows but I don't watch hard with the current setup.


Yeah I could upgrade down the road...heard good things about the triad's and was look at the silver as that would probably be max in terms of budget ($$$ based on a sheet that I pulled from the triad owners thread). I am just looking for the two speakers to complete the 5.2 for now, but want the ability to expand and hope the Triad model stick around a bit and then can possibly incorporate Atmos. Triad dealers seem limited right now so just hope the upgrade down the road though isn't even more limited


Never heard them either...but again reviews seem good. Which ones would you recommend? Budget is a concern as its a reno and there are other parts of the house that need to be done haha. That being said I do want decent speakers so I am happy down the road and don't mind paying a little more now for that. Again I am not a total audiophile (no disrespect to anyone meant), but at some point in the speaker food chain you can get a lot of speaker for X$, and then you can spend a lot more for the finer sound increases (these are things I might not notice).


Thanks!
The Silver LCR in-wall's (used as main level surrounds and even as the front three screen speakers) come in two varieties depending on the depth of your stud wall: 4 and 6. The MSRP, as you may have the same sheet I have, is $900 each. Really great speakers with a wide sound stage that even a non-audiophile could appreciate. Object based surround formats and Auro3D can use the surrounds far more aggressively than in previous channel-based tracks, so an investment in a more robust speaker is a sound one.

On the Triad thread, you could talk to Dawn and AV Science also caries them (at competitive prices), especially if you are hard up for dealers in your area. The In-ceiling Silver/6 Satellite would be used for the height speakers.

As you may be aware, side and rear surrounds should just be high enough to clear the tops of viewers' heads, so no sound is blocked, in order to have enough separation between the main layer and overhead layer for Dolby Atmos.

You may also want to pre-wire for the upcoming 9.1.4 layout with the addition of the front wide positions (I heard it at CEDIA and it really knocked my socks off... glad to see it's going to trickle down to the more mainstream manufacturers) as seen in the newest Dolby Atmos home installation guide on their website. It's one thing I really love about scalable object based audio... you can upgrade your surround processor and not have to buy all new Atmos discs to take advantage of the improvement. They handle up to 24.1.10.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...guidelines.pdf

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 12-27-2014 at 06:51 PM.
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post #813 of 903 Old 12-27-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by manfrog View Post
Yes I have read Dan's posts before and tons of good info , so glad we have a chat going.


Correct me if wrong but the Triad's have boxes or are enclosed already? I am just concerned about the DIY box approach for a speaker that wasn't built with one from the manufacturer.

Again trying to accomplish a lot I know but a good balance of everything is probably where I need to land. Trying to do the research obviously :-)
Triad in-wall's and in-ceiling's have full speaker cabinets designed to fit within a stud wall (or columns or baffle walls in a dedicated theater) and have built-in clamping mechanisms. The reason why they're taller and/or deeper than most architectural speakers is so that they have a fairly equivalent internal cabinet volume compared to the in-room versions. It's basically like putting a regular speaker in a more inconspicuous location.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 12-27-2014 at 06:45 PM.
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post #814 of 903 Old 12-27-2014, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The Silver LCR in-wall's (used as main level surrounds and even as the front three screen speakers) come in two varieties depending on the depth of your stud wall: 4 and 6. The MSRP, as you may have the same sheet I have, is $900 each. Really great speakers with a wide sound stage that even a non-audiophile could appreciate. Object based surround formats and Auro3D can use the surrounds far more aggressively than in previous channel-based tracks, so an investment in a more robust speaker is a sound one.

On the Triad thread, you could talk to Dawn and AV Science also caries them (at competitive prices), especially if you are hard up for dealers in your area. The In-ceiling Silver/6 Satellite would be used for the height speakers.

As you may be aware, side and rear surrounds should just be high enough to clear the tops of viewers' heads, so no sound is blocked, in order to have enough separation between the main layer and overhead layer for Dolby Atmos.

You may also want to pre-wire for the upcoming 9.1.4 layout with the addition of the front wide positions (I heard it at CEDIA and it really knocked my socks off... glad to see it's going to trickle down to the more mainstream manufacturers) as seen in the newest Dolby Atmos home installation guide on their website. It's one thing I really love about scalable object based audio... you can upgrade your surround processor and not have to buy all new Atmos discs to take advantage of the improvement. They handle up to 24.1.10.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...guidelines.pdf
Yeah I think we must have the same price sheet from Dawn.

Read the Atmos link...I am more educated now on that format. Thank you!

Listener level and speaker placement...I am a little limited on the left side speaker placement as I will be maintaining the current French doors and window. I do have about 2 ft of wall space above that I can place a speaker on/in but I guess I would need a speaker that I can angle to the main listening position. My theatre guy was originally suggesting ceiling mounted for the surrounds of the "7" setup. But with looking to do a 7.2.2 (or 4) that is going to be one busy ceiling.

So many things to contemplate and think about haha
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post #815 of 903 Old 12-27-2014, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by manfrog View Post
Yeah I think we must have the same price sheet from Dawn.

Read the Atmos link...I am more educated now on that format. Thank you!

Listener level and speaker placement...I am a little limited on the left side speaker placement as I will be maintaining the current French doors and window. I do have about 2 ft of wall space above that I can place a speaker on/in but I guess I would need a speaker that I can angle to the main listening position. My theatre guy was originally suggesting ceiling mounted for the surrounds of the "7" setup. But with looking to do a 7.2.2 (or 4) that is going to be one busy ceiling.

So many things to contemplate and think about haha
Wow! You do have a challenge there. I take it this is a multi-purpose room and not a dedicated viewing space. I'm beginning to wonder if In-room Bronze LCR's on pivoting wall brackets might work better in your situation (Triad can add them for you). They're not huge speakers and can still handle the room size you have (I wouldn't use them in any larger room as that would be pushing it). Aesthetics shouldn't be a problem (except for the one side surround that would be higher than the other main surrounds) because you can get them in custom finishes and Triad will even paint-match if given a sample of your decor. Then use in-ceiling Bronze/8's for Atmos overheads. It would look even more weird if all your surrounds were in-wall's except for one. This would also work for the wide surround positions because you could then properly angle the speakers towards the Main Listening Position, which is very hard to do with an in-wall.

This also saves you a few hundred bucks.

I'm just shooting out ideas here if the door has to stay in its current location.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 12-27-2014 at 09:22 PM.
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post #816 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 07:32 AM
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Where is the "None Of The Above" choice?

Non-standard RAIDs can recover deleted files. Anyone who says RAID protection is only for failed drives is lying.
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post #817 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Wow! You do have a challenge there. I take it this is a multi-purpose room and not a dedicated viewing space. I'm beginning to wonder if In-room Bronze LCR's on pivoting wall brackets might work better in your situation (Triad can add them for you). They're not huge speakers and can still handle the room size you have (I wouldn't use them in any larger room as that would be pushing it). Aesthetics shouldn't be a problem (except for the one side surround that would be higher than the other main surrounds) because you can get them in custom finishes and Triad will even paint-match if given a sample of your decor. Then use in-ceiling Bronze/8's for Atmos overheads. It would look even more weird if all your surrounds were in-wall's except for one. This would also work for the wide surround positions because you could then properly angle the speakers towards the Main Listening Position, which is very hard to do with an in-wall.

This also saves you a few hundred bucks.

I'm just shooting out ideas here if the door has to stay in its current location.

I have attached a few "rough" drawings of the room...a couple above the room to give you an idea of what I am working with. It will be a "dedicated room for TV/Theatre but its a reno and I am tearing down a wall between two room to make this one room.


In the first pic the green circles were my Atmos wiring, black circles are were side surround speakers will be placed (as mentioned the theater guy said ceiling ones from Monitor Audio), red boxes are the wiring for 7 channel back surrounds.


Second pic is the speaker layout out up at screen.


3rd pic is looking at the front wall


ignore the colors for now haha
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post #818 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 09:55 AM
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Where is the "None Of The Above" choice?

Sorry I am not understanding...is there another option I should be looking at?
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post #819 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 11:13 AM
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Question

Dan,
What would you do for my room below?

I'm starting to plan to remodel my existing basement for a Multi-Purpose Theater Room

It is for Movies (40%), TV (40%), and Games/Music (20%).

Attached is the first draft of the room.

I currently have...
Paradigm Monitor 7 v5 R/L
CC-390 v6 Center
Atom v4 (qty 4)

... If I want to "hide" the surrounds I'm not sure I can use the Atoms... they are deep and back ported.

Questions...
1. What Surrounds and Ceiling speakers would you guys suggest if I want to build an Atmos-ready theater? I'm thinking 4 or even 6 ceiling speakers
2. Suggestions on placement?
3. I'm considering the "invisible speaker" concept for the ceiling and/or surrounds... using transducers attached directly to the drywall. I wonder if this will provide the wide dispersion needed for the ceiling?

Really appreciate your input!
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________
Ltek

my setup: XBMC, Windows Media Center, Z-Wave/Insteon automation, Paradigm-Parasound-Onkyo-Velodyne Home Theater, 110" DIY Screen & BenQ W1070

Last edited by Livin; 12-28-2014 at 11:15 AM. Reason: added room diagram
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post #820 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 12:02 PM
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Sorry I am not understanding...is there another option I should be looking at?
I think he means the user poll at the beginning of the thread.

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post #821 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by manfrog View Post
I have attached a few "rough" drawings of the room...a couple above the room to give you an idea of what I am working with. It will be a "dedicated room for TV/Theatre but its a reno and I am tearing down a wall between two room to make this one room.


In the first pic the green circles were my Atmos wiring, black circles are were side surround speakers will be placed (as mentioned the theater guy said ceiling ones from Monitor Audio), red boxes are the wiring for 7 channel back surrounds.


Second pic is the speaker layout out up at screen.


3rd pic is looking at the front wall


ignore the colors for now haha
How far back are you planning on sitting from your 120" diagonal screen?

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #822 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Livin View Post
Dan,
What would you do for my room below?

I'm starting to plan to remodel my existing basement for a Multi-Purpose Theater Room

It is for Movies (40%), TV (40%), and Games/Music (20%).

Attached is the first draft of the room.

I currently have...
Paradigm Monitor 7 v5 R/L
CC-390 v6 Center
Atom v4 (qty 4)

... If I want to "hide" the surrounds I'm not sure I can use the Atoms... they are deep and back ported.

Questions...
1. What Surrounds and Ceiling speakers would you guys suggest if I want to build an Atmos-ready theater? I'm thinking 4 or even 6 ceiling speakers
2. Suggestions on placement?
3. I'm considering the "invisible speaker" concept for the ceiling and/or surrounds... using transducers attached directly to the drywall. I wonder if this will provide the wide dispersion needed for the ceiling?

Really appreciate your input!
I don't believe the transducer type invisible speakers (like the kind Triad now distributes) have enough of a dispersal pattern to work with Atmos or other 3D audio formats. They're better for background/ambient usage for light music and that sort of thing. I would scratch that idea.

Are you at all open to replacing the Paradigms you have now?

If you do use in-ceiling's for your overheads, they must be precisely located and should already have a built-in angle to fire toward the MLP. That's why quite a few Atmos theaters are using speakers like the Tannoy dual concentric mountable outdoor speakers, so they can more easily locate and aim them using the included brackets. You mess up an in-ceiling speaker installation and you have a nasty patch work job ahead of you.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 12-28-2014 at 12:36 PM.
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post #823 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I don't believe the transducer type invisible speakers (like the kind Triad now distributes) have enough of a dispersal pattern to work with Atmos or other 3D audio formats. They're better for background/ambient usage for light music and that sort of thing. I would scratch that idea.

Are you at all open to replacing the Paradigms you have now? If you do use in-ceiling's for your overheads, they must be precisely located and should already have a built-in angle to fire toward the MLP. That's why quite a few Atmos theaters are using speakers like the Tannoy dual concentric mountable outdoor speakers, so they can more easily locate and aim them using the included brackets. You mess up an in-ceiling speaker installation and you have a nasty patch work job ahead of you.
Yes, I'm open to replacing the Paradigms. Triads would be nice but they might be cost prohibitive. Do you see any issue using the Di6 or Di8 with the Paradigm LCRs I have?

For my space where would you place the speakers, and which ones in those locations?

thanks for the help!

________
Ltek

my setup: XBMC, Windows Media Center, Z-Wave/Insteon automation, Paradigm-Parasound-Onkyo-Velodyne Home Theater, 110" DIY Screen & BenQ W1070
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post #824 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
How far back are you planning on sitting from your 120" diagonal screen?

Lets say 14' to 16' - will have a 120" screen and the Sony HW40ES projector.

I have attached a pic of the French doors (on the south side wall with backyard on the other side of the glass) and space above that I am working with. Note - wall in pic on right side is the one coming down.

I have been looking at wall speakers that could go above the doors and have angle capabilities...any thoughts? Am I looking at this all wrong haha?

HTD - W80 http://www.htd.com/Products/high-def...-speakers#more
Speakercraft - http://www.speakercraft.com/products...category_id=52
Monitor Audio - http://www.monitoraudio.ca/products/...e/cp-wt380idc/ (seems to have tilting and the box enclosure already)
ML - https://www.martinlogan.com/architec...tion/em-iw.php

Could I install above door (same height on opposite side and angle down to the listening position?


I am not trying to deviate from Triad as I think they are good speakers I am just figuring out what is best for my setup and constraits

Thanks
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post #825 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Livin View Post
Yes, I'm open to replacing the Paradigms. Triads would be nice but they might be cost prohibitive. Do you see any issue using the Di6 or Di8 with the Paradigm LCRs I have?

For my space where would you place the speakers, and which ones in those locations?

thanks for the help!
You could use the Tannoy's with the speakers you have now... if you choose to keep the Paradigm's. Timbre matching is ideal, but Paradigm really limits your choices since they didn't jump on the Atmos bandwagon from the beginning and seem to be slow on the up take from what I gathered at CEDIA. The Tannoy Di 6DC's are being used by Roger Dressler (who used to work for Dolby) for his overheads and Keith Barnes is using the smaller Di 5DC's since his room is "hobbit sized."

It really comes down to whether room aesthetics or pure audio performance is more important to you. With the latter, you have a lot more choices to look at and probably would have an easier installation, and it would end up sounding better too. Also, much depends on how flexible your budget is. Regular Triad Bronze and Silver speakers (not their upper-scale Monitor line in each model tier, not to be confused with Paradigm Monitors) are around the same price as the higher end of the scale Paradigm Monitor and Studios, if you shop around you can get a lot better deal, and they are of better overall quality IMHO. And that's coming from a Paradigm Studio owner.

Great speakers are a sound investment and will last you years. Triad also has great after-sale customer service. Their reputation is impeccable.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 12-28-2014 at 01:16 PM.
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post #826 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manfrog View Post
Lets say 14' to 16' - will have a 120" screen and the Sony HW40ES projector.

I have attached a pic of the French doors (on the south side wall with backyard on the other side of the glass) and space above that I am working with. Note - wall in pic on right side is the one coming down.

I have been looking at wall speakers that could go above the doors and have angle capabilities...any thoughts? Am I looking at this all wrong haha?

HTD - W80 http://www.htd.com/Products/high-def...-speakers#more
Speakercraft - http://www.speakercraft.com/products...category_id=52
Monitor Audio - http://www.monitoraudio.ca/products/...e/cp-wt380idc/ (seems to have tilting and the box enclosure already)
ML - https://www.martinlogan.com/architec...tion/em-iw.php

Could I install above door (same height on opposite side and angle down to the listening position?


I am not trying to deviate from Triad as I think they are good speakers I am just figuring out what is best for my setup and constraits

Thanks

I'm not going to state categorically that you should rule out Atmos, however it's starting to look like you won't have enough angular separation between the main layer speakers (that should be around ear level) and the overhead layer. That's if you have to place the side surrounds that high up on the wall to clear your French door. You may end up not being able to really differentiate sound emanations from both locations... they'll all sound like they're coming from above you. If you had really tall ceilings, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. This is from reading other Atmos user stories.

Perhaps it might be best to stick with 7.1 or 9.1 (with front wides) for now. It's still best if you can aim the entire speaker toward the listening space. That would rule out most in-wall's unless the entire frame can be angled at the correct trajectory. I would still consider smaller in-room's that can be attached to adjustable brackets. The Bronze LCR's would still be good here, or possibly the Tannoy Di 6DC (http://www.fullcompass.com/product/345151.html) since they are dual concentric designs with a wider dispersion pattern and can be turned on their side... the woofer and tweeter are one unit. The Triad can be, as I mentioned previously, custom color matched and so can the grill... the Tannoy is metal and can be painted as well.

If that won't cut it, the Monitor Audio CP-WT380IDC might be the best bet of the in-wall's you listed since it has a) a backer box, and b) a pivoting tweeter and midrange, not just the tweeter - that would help focus the sound a bit better than a traditional in-wall.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 12-28-2014 at 02:05 PM.
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post #827 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I'm not going to state categorically that you should rule out Atmos, however it's starting to look like you won't have enough angular separation between the main layer speakers (that should be around ear level) and the overhead layer. That's if you have to place the side surrounds that high up on the wall to clear your French door. You may end up not being able to really differentiate sound emanations from both locations... they'll all sound like they're coming from above you. If you had really tall ceilings, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. This is from reading other Atmos user stories.

Perhaps it might be best to stick with 7.1 or 9.1 (with front wides) for now. It's still best if you can aim the entire speaker toward the listening space. That would rule out most in-wall's unless the entire frame can be angled at the correct trajectory. I would still consider smaller in-room's that can be attached to adjustable brackets. The Bronze LCR's would still be good here, or possibly the Tannoy Di 6DC (http://www.fullcompass.com/product/345151.html) since they are dual concentric designs with a wider dispersion pattern and can be turned on their side... the woofer and tweeter are one unit. The Triad can be, as I mentioned previously, custom color matched and so can the grill... the Tannoy is metal and can be painted as well.

If that won't cut it, the Monitor Audio CP-WT380IDC might be the best bet of the in-wall's you listed since it has a) a backer box, and b) a pivoting tweeter and midrange, not just the tweeter.

I see what you mean about the layers having some separation and if I place the sides to high then I have an issue...thought I could get away with the angling of the full baffle if I could point it "down" from above. In looking at the Speakercraft model it look like it can move full baffle left or right, but is not clear about down. Thought the issue here is that the listening postion changes a bit so setting for one sit is not same for the others.


Maybe the 9.2 is a better setup as I get some height speakers off of the front wall. My current receiver (denon x4000) can handle it as well...and wouldn't have to upgrade to Atmos if I went for the ceiling speakers - which was the original plan. I will look at the bronze Triad then for some. It may be the best option for the sides to wall mount on a angling bracket.


Many thanks for your patience and explanations...its really helped me out

Last edited by manfrog; 12-28-2014 at 02:21 PM.
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post #828 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 02:34 PM
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You could use the Tannoy's with the speakers you have now... if you choose to keep the Paradigm's. Timbre matching is ideal, but Paradigm really limits your choices since they didn't jump on the Atmos bandwagon from the beginning and seem to be slow on the up take from what I gathered at CEDIA. The Tannoy Di 6DC's are being used by Roger Dressler (who used to work for Dolby) for his overheads and Keith Barnes is using the smaller Di 5DC's since his room is "hobbit sized."

It really comes down to whether room aesthetics or pure audio performance is more important to you. With the latter, you have a lot more choices to look at and probably would have an easier installation, and it would end up sounding better too. Also, much depends on how flexible your budget is. Regular Triad Bronze and Silver speakers (not their upper-scale Monitor line in each model tier, not to be confused with Paradigm Monitors) are around the same price as the higher end of the scale Paradigm Monitor and Studios, if you shop around you can get a lot better deal, and they are of better overall quality IMHO. And that's coming from a Paradigm Studio owner.

Great speakers are a sound investment and will last you years. Triad also has great after-sale customer service. Their reputation is impeccable.
I always try to balance bang for the buck with how they are being used. I want to make it sounds excellent with Movies but I watch just as much TV as I do movies. And, that room needs to look nice but not like a "fancy" home theater - though I do plan to have theater seating and a riser... the seats will be on casters so I can move them around the room for parties, etc.

I could see spending 200 per speaker at the most for ceiling and surrounds - more on the fronts and center.

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post #829 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 02:40 PM
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I see what you mean about the layers having some separation and if I place the sides to high then I have an issue...thought I could get away with the angling of the full baffle if I could point it "down" from above. In looking at the Speakercraft model it look like it can move full baffle left or right, but is not clear about down. Thought the issue here is that the listening postion changes a bit so setting for one sit is not same for the others.


Maybe the 9.2 is a better setup as I get some height speakers off of the front wall. My current receiver (denon x4000) can handle it as well...and wouldn't have to upgrade to Atmos if I went for the ceiling speakers - which was the original plan. I will look at the bronze Triad then for some. It may be the best option for the sides to wall mount on a angling bracket.


Many thanks for your patience and explanations...its really helped me out
You would definitely like the Bronze speakers. You can talk to Triad customer service and they can give you an idea of what kind of brackets would be most useful to your situation and they'll install them, so one less thing to worry about. Don't want to end up screwing through the crossover circuit board if you do it yourself.

One thing to consider is that with DTS Neo:X post processing the wides seem to expand the sound stage more noticeably than the heights due to it being a matrixed steering logic rather than discrete audio like Atmos.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #830 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 03:24 PM
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I always try to balance bang for the buck with how they are being used. I want to make it sounds excellent with Movies but I watch just as much TV as I do movies. And, that room needs to look nice but not like a "fancy" home theater - though I do plan to have theater seating and a riser... the seats will be on casters so I can move them around the room for parties, etc.

I could see spending 200 per speaker at the most for ceiling and surrounds - more on the fronts and center.
Your surround speaker budget is modest, so I don't exactly see where in-wall's of suitable quality would work in this situation.

Try these for mountable surrounds and overheads... they're compact, non-ported monopoles, and get great reviews as bang vs. buck champs (under $300/pair - you get a small discount with quantity orders):

http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/pro...00/htm200.html

Use your Paradigm Monitor fronts and center. These Ascend Acoustic models should be a fairly good match (not perfect, but better than some). Use the savings on not upgrading your screen speakers and get a couple high quality subs.

Peruse the Atmos installation guide and compile any questions you might have.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...guidelines.pdf

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #831 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 03:50 PM
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You would definitely like the Bronze speakers. You can talk to Triad customer service and they can give you an idea of what kind of brackets would be most useful to your situation and they'll install them, so one less thing to worry about. Don't want to end up screwing through the crossover circuit board if you do it yourself.

One thing to consider is that with DTS Neo:X post processing the wides seem to expand the sound stage more noticeably than the heights due to it being a matrixed steering logic rather than discrete audio like Atmos.


Triad will install? Not sure they can make where I am, but maybe they have a local distributor.


Could you explain the DTS Neo comment...not sure I Understand what you mean.


Will look at the bronze for sure. Back to the original question now (if I am not using Atmos)...would I look to use a Triad "surround" speaker for the back while using the bronze for the side and front heights? Correct me if I have this wrong...still looking at the "9" setup haha
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post #832 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 04:16 PM
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Triad will install? Not sure they can make where I am, but maybe they have a local distributor.


Could you explain the DTS Neo comment...not sure I Understand what you mean.


Will look at the bronze for sure. Back to the original question now (if I am not using Atmos)...would I look to use a Triad "surround" speaker for the back while using the bronze for the side and front heights? Correct me if I have this wrong...still looking at the "9" setup haha
Where are you located? Triad makes the speakers to order - they don't have much pre-made stock sitting around in their warehouse. If you want custom wall brackets for in-room's or on-wall's, they'll put them on the back of the speaker for you when you order them. The same as if you request an order with a custom finish or paint color. They then ship to your dealer or directly to your home... whichever arrangement you settled on with the dealer.

It would be Bronze In-Room LCR's for the rears and wides or heights and Bronze On-Wall Surrounds for the sides, if you want dipole surrounds. I, personally, am not keen on dipoles. Too diffuse IMHO, and if you ever get into multi-channel music, monopoles would be the better choice... just like as if you had been able to do Atmos.

If you stay with the Denon x4000 receiver, you can either process heights or wides with DTS Neo:X post-processed upmixing (it doesn't allow you to do both at the same time due to its limited chip horsepower). These post-processed formats (that are not Dolby Surround - designed for Atmos speaker upmixing) tend to do a better and more accurate and noticeable job widening the front sound field out into the wide speakers rather than placing audio into the height speakers. Bang vs. buck in a non-3D audio theater would be using wide speakers instead of heights if you have to choose one location.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 12-28-2014 at 04:22 PM.
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post #833 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 07:43 PM
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Dan,
I see you are in CO. I'm in Erie, I'm looking for help doing a design and the install. Do you have anyone in this area you can recommend - who won't cost me an arm and a leg? I want a nice room, not extravagant, but something I'll not want to change in a few years.

thanks!

________
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post #834 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 07:59 PM
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Dan,
I see you are in CO. I'm in Erie, I'm looking for help doing a design and the install. Do you have anyone in this area you can recommend - who won't cost me an arm and a leg? I want a nice room, not extravagant, but something I'll not want to change in a few years.

thanks!
There was one I could have suggested in Fort Collins that no longer exists. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Erskine Group. They do different levels of design from basic to the most extravagant. Perhaps they can tailor something to your budget since you're an AVS Forum member, or at least get you on the right track. However, even the most inexpensive A/V designer is probably going to charge around $1,000 for basic DIY building plans and schematics. What I do know is that Dennis and his team are absolutely well worth the money, especially if this is for a home that you plan to stay in for a while. He used to frequent this forum quite a bit in the past giving sage, professional advice on his own time, and quite a few members have used his company for at least the planning stages. Obviously, only the most well off have had his award winning team flown in to actually build their theater.

http://erskine-group.com/contact-us/

Perhaps if you check out the dedicated theater build thread and ask your questions, you might get some great free advice. You may end up having to learn as you go because labor, especially labor that knows something about home theater, is not cheap.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #835 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 08:56 PM
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Where are you located? Triad makes the speakers to order - they don't have much pre-made stock sitting around in their warehouse. If you want custom wall brackets for in-room's or on-wall's, they'll put them on the back of the speaker for you when you order them. The same as if you request an order with a custom finish or paint color. They then ship to your dealer or directly to your home... whichever arrangement you settled on with the dealer.

It would be Bronze In-Room LCR's for the rears and wides or heights and Bronze On-Wall Surrounds for the sides, if you want dipole surrounds. I, personally, am not keen on dipoles. Too diffuse IMHO, and if you ever get into multi-channel music, monopoles would be the better choice... just like as if you had been able to do Atmos.

If you stay with the Denon x4000 receiver, you can either process heights or wides with DTS Neo:X post-processed upmixing (it doesn't allow you to do both at the same time due to its limited chip horsepower). These post-processed formats (that are not Dolby Surround - designed for Atmos speaker upmixing) tend to do a better and more accurate and noticeable job widening the front sound field out into the wide speakers rather than placing audio into the height speakers. Bang vs. buck in a non-3D audio theater would be using wide speakers instead of heights if you have to choose one location.

I am above the border in Vancouver, Canada, but have access to the US for all orders easily...all my shipments go there. I see there is a "local" dealer listed of the Triad site that I might call tomorrow and see, but have to check the USA prices and see what works best. Maybe there are some used ones out there as well..?


Room will mainly be for movies and TV viewing ...so not sure that makes a difference when deciding between heights or wides? I just thought the heights would add more to the experience vs the wides (but that is uneducated at best haha).

Would it be a "bad" decision to do heights then? Or just not the best considering the equipment...maybe I will stick with a 7.2 haha

What to wire for...was 7.2 Atmos, now I don't know haha. Room is "dedicated" to the purpose of viewing a screen (maybe 10% music down the road). Walls should be opened up in a few weeks and I need to figure this out ASAP.


Thanks again for the help...and I know I will get there haha

Last edited by manfrog; 12-28-2014 at 09:00 PM.
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post #836 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 09:33 PM
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I am above the border in Vancouver, Canada, but have access to the US for all orders easily...all my shipments go there. I see there is a "local" dealer listed of the Triad site that I might call tomorrow and see, but have to check the USA prices and see what works best. Maybe there are some used ones out there as well..?


Room will mainly be for movies and TV viewing ...so not sure that makes a difference when deciding between heights or wides? I just thought the heights would add more to the experience vs the wides (but that is uneducated at best haha).

Would it be a "bad" decision to do heights then? Or just not the best considering the equipment...maybe I will stick with a 7.2 haha

What to wire for...was 7.2 Atmos, now I don't know haha. Room is "dedicated" to the purpose of viewing a screen (maybe 10% music down the road). Walls should be opened up in a few weeks and I need to figure this out ASAP.


Thanks again for the help...and I know I will get there haha
Heights are better used when there is discrete information in the soundtrack like from Auro3D, Dolby Atmos, or DTS MDA. It's not as easy to synthesize overhead audio with these older upmixing formats like Dolby Prologic IIz and DTS Neo:X as it is frontal derived info from the side surrounds and screen speakers (Dolby Surround was a re-invention of the upmixer "secret sauce"). That doesn't mean you couldn't wire for front wall height speakers that fall within Dolby Atmos recommended angle specs for front heights, not ceiling heights (that also work for these other upmixing formats and Auro3D) and add them later.

You are losing a lot by not adding music into the mix. Multi-channel high res. is a real treat. Quite a few concert Blu-ray's include it too.

I'm sure there are some used Triad's out in the wild, though they can be harder to come by. Owners usually don't like to part with them, which says a lot.

Are you using an acoustically transparent screen?

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #837 of 903 Old 12-28-2014, 09:38 PM
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Heights are better used when there is discrete information in the soundtrack like from Auro3D, Dolby Atmos, or DTS MDA. It's not as easy to synthesize overhead audio with these older upmixing formats like Dolby Prologic IIz and DTS Neo:X as it is frontal derived info from the side surrounds and screen speakers (Dolby Surround was a re-invention of the upmixer "secret sauce"). That doesn't mean you couldn't wire for front wall height speakers that fall within Dolby Atmos recommended angle specs for front heights (that also work for these other upmixing formats) and add them later.

You are losing a lot by not adding music into the mix. Multi-channel high res. is a real treat. Quite a few concert Blu-ray's include it too.

I'm sure there are some used Triad's out in the wild, though they can be harder to come by. Owners usually don't like to part with them, which says a lot.

Are you using an acoustically transparent screen?

Yeah I may get more into the music/concert on Blu-ray once I have the setup to do it...just moved into this house from a townhouse where there were no options to upgrade to "toys" like this


Yeah wiring for all this should be fun...I really want to try and get it right at this point and at least enjoy for a few years (if not more) without worrying/wanting/needing to upgrade. This hobby is demanding and I really just want to enjoy it.


no my screen is not transparent...not to say I wouldn't get one down the road, but budget and all I did not go for it this time. Besides, I like the look of speakers and want them out at the front of the room. Looks daunting have big towers and dual subs just waiting to go...
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post #838 of 903 Old 12-29-2014, 04:47 PM
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If you don't have a relationship with a local Triad dealer I can sell you Triads. I can also arrange for an installer to install them for you.

Call or email me if you need assistance.

Dawn Gordon Luks
Egret Electronics
561-745-6186
dawn@egretelectronics.com


Hey Dawn...thanks! Email sent.
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post #839 of 903 Old 12-30-2014, 04:36 PM
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If I buy some used Triad's (to save some $) - what specific things should I look for, check, etc - to ensure they will match new ones that I'd need to buy?

Also (in case Triad are not within my budget - they may not be) what other speakers should I be looking at? I don't need in-wall but it would make hiding them much easier and the room look nicer. Thus, please suggest on-wall or speakers that woul be easily hidden behind panels/pillars/etc.

thanks!

________
Ltek

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post #840 of 903 Old 01-01-2015, 01:12 PM
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I recently purchased the new Sony STR-ZA3000ES AVR for my new home. I've been using the Sony SA-VE835ED speaker system for awhile now. However to complete the 5.1 I really don't have a way to easily run speaker wires to the back speakers. There is no basement and I have really nice birch wood floors I don't want to drill into.

Can anyone recommend a way I can get 2 rear speakers introduced to this setup to complete the 5.1 surround again?

Would you also recommend a complete new speaker setup? Right now as a 3.1 setup, I'm disappointed in watching most Dolby TV shows that the talking is washed out by the other sounds. It used to be so much clearer in my previous setup, now I need to really turn up to have the voices above the rest. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
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