SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: There are many surround speakers out there now, but the ones below would have to get my highest reco
Mirage OMD5 (or any other Mirage Omnipole) 23 22.55%
JBL P520WS / Infinity ES-250 / Infinity Classia C255ES (Dual-monopole for 4 channels from 2 speakers, but also Bipole & Dipole switchable) 4 3.92%
Axiom QS8 or QS4 (Unique Quadpole design) 27 26.47%
Paradigm ADP (Many models available with this design, where the tweeters run Dipole, but the woofers are Bipole) 18 17.65%
Monitor Audio BXFX or RXFX (Single woofer, but the tweeters can switch to either Dipole or Bipole) 13 12.75%
Monitor Audio GXFX (6 drivers, including a ribbon. (Monopole / Dipole switchable) 11 10.78%
KEF 26/2DS (Dipole only, alas... but with two 6.5 inch side woofers and a front-firing 8 inch!!! ) 6 5.88%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

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post #61 of 737 Old 07-14-2007, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggunnell View Post

Gee, most of us just switch wires on one of the tweeters

If you do this, label the speaker on the back which tweeter is reversed (voice of experience).

I've not heard the QS8s -- they would not work for me due to the aforementioned low frequency limitation. If you want more info on the QS8s, search the Axiom forum http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php on QS8.

By switching wires on one of the tweeters, do you mean reversing the polarity on one of the speakers? This would just put the two speakers out of phase with each other (including reduced bass), rather than the tweeters on each speaker?

Also, which surround speakers do you own?
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post #62 of 737 Old 07-14-2007, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zissou View Post

You may have missed this but I have been told you are closing your store?

Just the retail portion. Too many aggressive burglars here. Time for something completely different. Why?

John
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post #63 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post


Thanks Jaseman!
That's actually why I REALLY started this thread..... so people could suggest speaker models, approaches, confgurations, etc.

* Tell us what models of dipoles and bipoles you've listened to?
* What did or didn't you like about them?
* How have you placed them?
* How far does everyone sit from them?
* What would you rather own (in a different room or with more funds)?
* What test material do you use?
.......all this sort of stuff.


Jaseman, I've long been interested in the QS8's. How diffuse are they compared to dipoles you may have heard? (I notice they have woofers firing at the floor and the ceiling)

I only have heard two other individual's HT setup. Like them I used to use direct firing monopole speakers for surrounds, side and back. I never heard any bi-pole, di-pole, tri-pole, or quad-pole speakers until I got my QS8's. I simply do not have the time to audition all these different types of speakers. So, I read as much as I could on the pros and cons of those who are using these types of speakers. Since I was getting my new 7.1 system from Axiom I decided to get what they offered. As for bass response from the QS8's... do not let the specs fool you. These things rock! Highs and lows are clearly heard! Remember, that there really isn't that much low frequency sent to the surrounds anyway. The dual 5.25" woofers are more than adequate for getting down low. They are rated at 65Hz. In my case I went from an 8 Ohm two driver design per box to a 6 Ohm four driver box. The increased power to them along with the quad design makes my old monopoles sound like cheap garbage.

Again because I have never had the opportunity to hear any other di-pole or bi-pole speakers I cannot compare them. I can say though that my wife, who cares little about sound quality has even commented (without any prodding from me) that the new setup sounds really good and clear.

My room is about 20L x 13W x 7H. It's a finished basement with a drop ceiling dedicated to HT. The surrounds are mounted 5.5' high at the top of the speaker. The sides are 12' back from the front wall. The rears are mounted on the back wall 3' in from either side leaving about 7' between them. That gives all the QS8's about 1.5' of space above them to the drop ceiling. Because the rears sit in 3' from the side wall there is about 10' of space between the side surrounds and the rears. Right now my couch sits right against the back wall. I do need to pull it out at least 1.5' to 2'. As of yet I have not done so due to limits in the other furnishings. Sitting on the couch makes the speakers a little too easy to localize but I know it's because the couch needs to be pulled out. But it's still better than with the monopoles. After calibrating with my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter the sound of movies and music is just beautiful.

I highly recommend di-bi-tri-quad-pole's over direct radiators any day.

Better to want what you don't have, than to have what you don't want!

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post #64 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

By switching wires on one of the tweeters, do you mean reversing the polarity on one of the speakers? This would just put the two speakers out of phase with each other (including reduced bass), rather than the tweeters on each speaker?

I think he may have meant switching the two tweeters out of phase while leaving the woofers in phase, so you don't get reduced bass.

Sanjay

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post #65 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

I think he may have meant switching the two tweeters out of phase while leaving the woofers in phase, so you don't get reduced bass.

Sanjay

By the way, that's a mistake, Big Time. Information from the woofers would be IN phase WELL up into the midrange, and I would expect an obnoxious directional "honk" in the 1 kHz region.

A properly designed dipole does not have the front array out of phase with the back array over the full frequency range. If there is one common woofer, one of the arrays may be highpassed at 300 Hz or so to avoid bass cancellations. If there are separate woofers for each array, they are most likely in phase to 300 Hz-500Hz with the rear array shifting to out-of-phase above that. Some 4-driver dipoles simply highpass the rear array somewhere in the lower midrange, which is not a good solution because it reduces upper bass/lower midrange headroom. There are a dozen different ways of wiring a dipole, and some are worse than others.

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post #66 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 09:39 AM
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Yes, Paul, but it clearly wouldn't matter since any pretense of accuracy or phase is completely thrown out as a consequence of choosing dipoles anyway. How would one notice a little more inaccuracy in something completely inaccurate?

John
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post #67 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Yes, Paul, but it clearly wouldn't matter since any pretense of accuracy or phase is completely thrown out as a consequence of choosing dipoles anyway. How would one notice a little more inaccuracy in something completely inaccurate?

It would shift the frequency response off by 5-10 dB in the midrange, throwing off the spectral balance. It would take the compromised concept of a dipole surround and turn it into a sonic horror show.

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post #68 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 10:40 AM
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That's like saying putting ketchup on a Taco Bell burrito turns it into into a culinary horror show. I say "what's the difference?"

John
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post #69 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Just the retail portion. Too many aggressive burglars here. Time for something completely different. Why?


LMAO!!! Awesome!
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post #70 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 12:51 PM
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Paul is correct that a typical two-way x-o is a couple octaves higher than you really want to split the signal in a dipole -- the well designed dipoles (in John's honor, I will say the 'better' designed dipoles ) I think of are three-ways with a common woofer.

Haggis, my movie surrounds have been out of production for a long time: the NHT dipoles that went with the VT-2's. They're 3-ways with a single 6' woofer, and a midrange and tweeter on each end.

If you are looking for a product rec, I'll give you two. Under $600 the QS8's -- despite the limited under 100Hz response, they're probably the most liked multi-way surrounds and have been enjoyed by folks with much more expensive front speakers.

Under $1k the Polk LsiFX, which will do a 60Hz global cross and uses the Vifa XT25 tweeter, a personal favorite of mine.

Esit: I forgot to include the DefTech bipoles.
Remember that a high-wall-mounted conventional speaker aimed either down at the floor or up at the ceiling, as Rudman described earlier in this thread, may be all you need to non-localize the sound field.

Or you can hire a pro to design some and build the cabs yourself. You've got some great talent Down Under -- up here I'd probably ask Dannie Richie
http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp...TS&Category=14
or Rick Craig
http://www.selahaudio.com/

Good Luck!
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post #71 of 737 Old 07-16-2007, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

That's like saying putting ketchup on a Taco Bell burrito turns it into into a culinary horror show. I say "what's the difference?"

John, I understand the concept of "You can't polish a turd."


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post #72 of 737 Old 07-22-2007, 09:44 AM
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I've got a question about 7.1 system dipole deployment -- in particular, how to mount rear dipole surrounds relative to the rest of the system.

I'm about to install 2 pairs of Triad In-Wall Gold Surrounds (the newer ones with 7 drivers each) in my 7.1 dedicated theater, and trying to figure out the best way to orient the surrounds.

It's pretty clear how to mount the side dipole surrounds in columns on the side walls, since Triad nicely labels its speaker cabinet with an arrow that is supposed to point to the front of the room. (I'm interested in determining if this makes the front-facing or the rear-facing midrange/tweeters out-of-phase). I'm also assuming these side surround dipoles should be mounted "upside down" with the woofer on top/tweeters on bottom, so the tweeters are closer to ear level, right?

But my biggest question is how to mount the rear dipoles. Do left dipoles go still go on the left side of the back wall, and right dipoles still go on right side of the back wall? Or should their positions be reversed? (I can't rely on the arrow labels on these rear speakers, since with mounting them on the back wall, they can't point to the front of the room.) Again, I'm assuming the woofer belongs at the top to make tweeters closer to ear level, right?

(And for those of you questioning why I chose dipoles for the rear wall, my rear row of seats would be too close to direct radiating speakers.)

Any guidance on dipole surround speaker orientation would be appreciated.

Thanks,
- Dave
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post #73 of 737 Old 07-22-2007, 02:11 PM
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Left dipoles still go on the left side of the back wall. Also, I would not turn the surrounds upside-down, unless they have to be mounted very high, and then you have to use a left speaker for a right and vice versa.

Normally I'd prefer direct-radiating in the back, but in your installation, dipoles will not hotspot as bad as direct-radiating surrounds. BTW, you will get directional cues from the new Gold Surround. The null is not quite as deep as some other surrounds, and strong surround information can be localized.

You are to be commended for using four $1500 surround speakers.

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post #74 of 737 Old 07-22-2007, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Left dipoles still go on the left side of the back wall.

Paul - is there a reason for not following the conventional advice of swapping the left and right dipoles for the rear position?

To the OP, if there is an arrow that is supposed to point to the front of the room for side surrounds, then the usual recommendation for the rears is to swap positions such that the arrows would point toward each other and also point toward the center of the back.

Ed
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post #75 of 737 Old 07-22-2007, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Left dipoles still go on the left side of the back wall. Also, I would not turn the surrounds upside-down, unless they have to be mounted very high, and then you have to use a left speaker for a right and vice versa.

Paul:
Thanks for your rapid response!

But I'm still confused a bit. The PDF drawings (on your website) for the Triad In-Wall Gold Surrounds show them being mounted woofer on top/tweeter on bottom, and if I place the left surround on the left side of the room and have the arrow on the speaker point forward towards the screen as indicated on the label, it also means I should mount the side surround dipoles with the woofer on top/tweeter on bottom.

So based on all this, Gold Surround dipoles SHOULD be mounted "up-side down" (unless you mean I shouldn't turn them over to have the tweeter on top/woofer on bottom). But hey, you're the expert on Triad speakers here, so I really value your advice.

Separately, let's see if I understand the rear dipole mounting strategy: Mounting the rear dipoles per your recommendation will cause the in-phase drivers to face the back corners of the room (where their sound will face and mix with the out-of-phase sound from the side dipole surround speakers). The out-of-phase drivers of the rear dipoles will face each other towards the centerline of the rear wall.

Is this what you intended? Again, thanks for the help.

- Dave
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post #76 of 737 Old 08-03-2007, 08:38 AM
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Here's a cut and paste from a cached Goggle site:

Some make a blanket recommendation of dipolar speakers with no serious discussion of their limitations and flaws. Dipole speakers were designed specifically to hide the poor rear channel sound of Dolby Pro-logic surround. In Pro-Logic, the rear channels are monophonic and extremely low fidelity, essentially equivalent to AM radio. The thought was to make take the monophonic sound and spread it across the back of the room to make it more spacious and less noticeable. However, with the advent of 5.1 soundtracks with essentially CD-quality stereo rear channel sound, spaciousness is dramatically improved and, because of the dramatic improvement in quality, there is no reason to hide the rear sound any more. And, with the ability to further split two rear channels into three, precision and spaciousness are enhanced to levels no dipole speaker could possibly match. Interestingly, dipole speakers are the most difficult to setup because there is only one way to set them up at all - directly to the side of the couch, several feet above the listening position with the couch 5-10' from the back wall. Any deviation from that setup yields even lower quality rear channel sound. Also, many proponents back dipole speakers because "it mimics the more diffuse sound of a movie theater." This is like buying a sports car that performs like a bus. Movie theater sound is awful compared to a good home theater system. More to the point, sound engineers use two or three discrete directional speakers behind them, not dipoles. If you want to hear what the sound engineer hears in his mixdown studio avoid dipole loudspeakers at all cost. Movie theaters sound the way they do because they have to play decent sound to hundreds of people, where as a home theater can focus its performance on just a few people. Also, many dipolar proponents insist that dipolar speakers are less noticeable and allow you to concentrate more fully on the TV screen "as the director intended". But they don't know what the director intended.. Dipolar sound is an "effect" that seriously modifies and dilutes the sound of the rear channels. Only true monitor speakers allow you to hear exactly what the sound engineer heard when he mixed the soundtrack. If he mixed for a diffuse effect, that is what you will get. If he wanted an intense, distracting effect, that is what you will get. If you own dipolar speaker and want to understand more of what I mean, hook them up to the stereo front channels of your receiver and play stereo music through them. If that doesn't convince you of the low fidelity of dipolar speakers, I don't know what will. Although I could go on forever on the dipole subject, I can say that we have switched dozens of people out of dipolar rear speakers purchased elsewhere because the customer simply did not get the performance that he had expected from their new DVD player. All of them are extremely happy with the far more accurate and intense surround sound of high quality monitor speakers.
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post #77 of 737 Old 08-03-2007, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbobwe View Post

Here's a cut and paste from a cached Goggle site:

Some make a blanket recommendation of dipolar speakers with no serious discussion of their limitations and flaws. Dipole speakers were designed specifically to hide the poor rear channel sound of Dolby Pro-logic surround. In Pro-Logic, the rear channels are monophonic and extremely low fidelity, essentially equivalent to AM radio. The thought was to make take the monophonic sound and spread it across the back of the room to make it more spacious and less noticeable. However, with the advent of 5.1 soundtracks with essentially CD-quality stereo rear channel sound, spaciousness is dramatically improved and, because of the dramatic improvement in quality, there is no reason to hide the rear sound any more. And, with the ability to further split two rear channels into three, precision and spaciousness are enhanced to levels no dipole speaker could possibly match. Interestingly, dipole speakers are the most difficult to setup because there is only one way to set them up at all - directly to the side of the couch, several feet above the listening position with the couch 5-10' from the back wall. Any deviation from that setup yields even lower quality rear channel sound. Also, many proponents back dipole speakers because "it mimics the more diffuse sound of a movie theater." This is like buying a sports car that performs like a bus. Movie theater sound is awful compared to a good home theater system. More to the point, sound engineers use two or three discrete directional speakers behind them, not dipoles. If you want to hear what the sound engineer hears in his mixdown studio avoid dipole loudspeakers at all cost. Movie theaters sound the way they do because they have to play decent sound to hundreds of people, where as a home theater can focus its performance on just a few people. Also, many dipolar proponents insist that dipolar speakers are less noticeable and allow you to concentrate more fully on the TV screen "as the director intended". But they don't know what the director intended.. Dipolar sound is an "effect" that seriously modifies and dilutes the sound of the rear channels. Only true monitor speakers allow you to hear exactly what the sound engineer heard when he mixed the soundtrack. If he mixed for a diffuse effect, that is what you will get. If he wanted an intense, distracting effect, that is what you will get. If you own dipolar speaker and want to understand more of what I mean, hook them up to the stereo front channels of your receiver and play stereo music through them. If that doesn't convince you of the low fidelity of dipolar speakers, I don't know what will. Although I could go on forever on the dipole subject, I can say that we have switched dozens of people out of dipolar rear speakers purchased elsewhere because the customer simply did not get the performance that he had expected from their new DVD player. All of them are extremely happy with the far more accurate and intense surround sound of high quality monitor speakers.

This quote seems to be referring to strictly a 5.1 set up, with an emphasis on the rear sound stage.

In a 7.1 setup -- with directs for the rears, but dipole/bipole for the side surrounds, I think you get the best of both worlds.

If I was the only one listening, I think directs for sides would be good. But with 7 seats in my theater, I think dipoles are better for the side surrounds (coupled with directs for the rears).
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post #78 of 737 Old 08-03-2007, 12:29 PM
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This is an article posted in the FAQ section of the Paradigm websited. It pretty clearly disputes what is being said.

http://www.paradigm.com/en/pdf/dipolar_confusion.pdf

I am a firm believer in di-pole speakers. I feel they give me a much more enveloping soundfield. If your room is big enough that you can get some distance between yourself and a direct radiating speaker, that might change. But in my room, di-poles win.
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post #79 of 737 Old 08-03-2007, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swgiust View Post

This is an article posted in the FAQ section of the Paradigm websited. It pretty clearly disputes what is being said.

http://www.paradigm.com/en/pdf/dipolar_confusion.pdf

I am a firm believer in di-pole speakers. I feel they give me a much more enveloping soundfield. If your room is big enough that you can get some distance between yourself and a direct radiating speaker, that might change. But in my room, di-poles win.

That Paradigm article may be outdated though -- its from 1998.

That being said, I think dipole wins if you have multiple seats too.
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post #80 of 737 Old 01-05-2009, 04:35 PM
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Tag for reading later.
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post #81 of 737 Old 03-03-2009, 01:52 PM
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I know this is an old thread, but I need to clarify for my room.
I have a 24' wide by 26' long room with 12' ceilings. I sit about 13' from the rear surrounds. They are about 8 feet high.
According to most, my rear surrounds should then be set to direct or bipole?
I own the Infinity Beta 250s so I can change their effect.
I sit 13' from the right side surround and 12' from the left side surround. I assume they should be set to dipole?
Thanks all.
Excellent read, but still confusing to someone relatively new to this.
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post #82 of 737 Old 03-03-2009, 02:09 PM
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Bipole

John
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post #83 of 737 Old 03-04-2009, 03:26 PM
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Thank you Alimentall!
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post #84 of 737 Old 03-04-2009, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

I know this is an old thread, but I need to clarify for my room.
I have a 24' wide by 26' long room with 12' ceilings. I sit about 13' from the rear surrounds. They are about 8 feet high.
According to most, my rear surrounds should then be set to direct or bipole?
I own the Infinity Beta 250s so I can change their effect.
I sit 13' from the right side surround and 12' from the left side surround. I assume they should be set to dipole?
Thanks all.
Excellent read, but still confusing to someone relatively new to this.

I would favor bipole as Alimentall suggested, but since you can switch modes on your speakers, why not try both ways and see which way you like it better?

Steve

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post #85 of 737 Old 03-04-2009, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

I know this is an old thread, but I need to clarify for my room.
I have a 24' wide by 26' long room with 12' ceilings. I sit about 13' from the rear surrounds. They are about 8 feet high.
According to most, my rear surrounds should then be set to direct or bipole?
I own the Infinity Beta 250s so I can change their effect.
I sit 13' from the right side surround and 12' from the left side surround. I assume they should be set to dipole?
Thanks all.
Excellent read, but still confusing to someone relatively new to this.

So you have the ES250's on the back wall, and you are sitting half way down the room? Is that right?

How far in from the side walls are they?

The ES250's can be set to:
Bipole: Both drivers firing in phase

Dipole: Both drivers firing, but OUT of phase - This gives you a more diffuse sound that's harder to localise, but with less accuracy and reduced bass. Only use this if you've got them to either side of you and relatively close to seating.... and even then, test first!

Dual-monopole:: This is what makes these speakers special. Hook in two pairs of wires to each (surrround + rear-surround), switch your receiver to 7.1 speakers and run everything in Dolby ProLogic IIx Cinema, and you'd swear everything was mixed that way... Better soundstaging, smoother pans, etc.

Ideally, you should have 4 separate speakers: 2 side-surrounds (dipole or bipole) AND 2 rear-surrounds (bipole).
But if you really can't, then this is the next best thing.

This is how I used to have things, back in the last place whe I had a room more like yours...




Click on my signature below to see how this has been down-graded in the new place....

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post #86 of 737 Old 03-07-2009, 10:35 AM
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Thank you Electric Haggis and fireman 325!
I only have one wire run through the ceiling and walls to my rear surrounds so I can't easily do what you've suggested with the two wires to those speakers.
I could run two separate wires to the side surrounds though easy enough.
I sit 13' from the right side surround and 12' from the left side surround. Should I still do the bi-wiring to them and run them monopole? Or just keep them di pole?
Thanks again everyone for the advice.
Its very difficult to get everything to sound just right in this large a room, sitting so far away from the speakers. Being all the surround speakers are so far away from my prime seating, should I invest in 4 larger direct radiating speakers?
I do appreciate the advice and suggestions.
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post #87 of 737 Old 03-07-2009, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

Thank you Electric Haggis and fireman 325!
I only have one wire run through the ceiling and walls to my rear surrounds so I can't easily do what you've suggested with the two wires to those speakers.
I could run two separate wires to the side surrounds though easy enough.
I sit 13' from the right side surround and 12' from the left side surround. Should I still do the bi-wiring to them and run them monopole? Or just keep them di pole?
Thanks again everyone for the advice.
Its very difficult to get everything to sound just right in this large a room, sitting so far away from the speakers. Being all the surround speakers are so far away from my prime seating, should I invest in 4 larger direct radiating speakers?
I do appreciate the advice and suggestions.

There's nothing wrong with having a big room. In some ways it's easier to get the surrounds to dissapear - especially when you're sitting that far away from them. Remember, commercial cinemas and studio mixing theatres are still WAY bigger than your room.

Why on earth would you think that direct-radiating will give you "more sound" than bipoles or dipoles?
With a larger room, you want more drivers, so you can fire & bounce more surround information around in more directions to make up for not having arrays of surround speakers, like a cinema/mixing theatre does.


In your situation, basically what you want to be doing is running you ES250's in BIPOLE (2 wires only), and buying another pair of BIPOLES for the sides - The larger the better.
Maybe another pair of ES250's. Axiom Audio QS8 quadpoles are well-loved by many. They fire in four different directions - Good for big rooms.
Paradigm's larger ADP speakers in their Monitor range are also worth considering. But in your case, I'd probably go for the QS8's. Maybe even replace your rear Infinity's with them, too (although it isn't critical).

Let me get this straight...
1. You have only two surround speakers on the back wall (Infinity ES250's).
2. You have two pairs of wires at the back of the room, and can run two more to the sides?
3. You haven't bought side-surrounds yet?
4. You're sitting around 13 feet from the rear surrounds?
5. You're sitting 12-13 feet from where the side surrounds would be if you bought a pair?
6. Surrounds speakers are/would be 8 feet from the floor?

Questions...
1. Do you have an Audyssey-equipped 7.1 receiver? What is it?
2. How far are you from the front speakers, and how widely spread out do you have them, relative to the TV / projector screen?
3. What front speakers are you using?
4. How far in from the sides are your rear surrounds?
5. How high are your walls?
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post #88 of 737 Old 03-11-2009, 12:17 PM
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Thanks again for the extra help. I've answered your questions below within your quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post


Let me get this straight...
1. You have only two surround speakers on the back wall (Infinity ES250's).
Yes, at present I only have the two rear surrounds, but only because I sold the side surrounds a few weeks ago. I'm looking to replace all four surrounds, but may consider keeping the Infinity Beta 250s.
2. You have two pairs of wires at the back of the room, and can run two more to the sides?
Wiring is run to the side and rears. I can not run any more wires to the rear speakers, but can run another set of wire to the side surrounds if needed.
3. You haven't bought side-surrounds yet?
No. I'm still looking at all options, but I keep coming back to the Axiom QS8's. I'd really like to find a great deal on the Niles PRO870FX speakers. I heard them at Nebraska Furniture Mart this weekend. They are very nice and very large multi pole surrounds (18"x18").
4. You're sitting around 13 feet from the rear surrounds?
Yes.
5. You're sitting 12-13 feet from where the side surrounds would be if you bought a pair?
Yes.
6. Surrounds speakers are/would be 8 feet from the floor?
Yes. I could mount them higher if need be. The ceilings are 12 feet high.

Questions...
1. Do you have an Audyssey-equipped 7.1 receiver? What is it?
Yes, I have the Onkyo 805.
2. How far are you from the front speakers, and how widely spread out do you have them, relative to the TV / projector screen?
I sit 13 feet from the 120"x67", 16:9, movie screen. Front 3 are directly behind my DIY AT screen. There is 7 feet in between the left and right fronts. Center channel is in the middle of these two.
3. What front speakers are you using? 3 Klipsch KL-650 Ultra 2 THX speakers. Bought them as demos from a home theater store. Great price. Great speakers.
4. How far in from the sides are your rear surrounds?
They are about 4 feet in from the side walls, 16 feet apart from each other.
5. How high are your walls?
12 foot ceilings. Walls go all the way up

My thought was the larger the surround speaker, the better, for my room's volume. I know I want dipole for the side surrounds and bipole for the rears.
If I can find two more white Infinity Beta 250s (they are hard to find now), I'd try them first before investing in 4 completely new speakers.
Thanks again for all of your time and help!
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post #89 of 737 Old 03-11-2009, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Firstly, it's good that you've got all the speakers at a decent, equal distance and that you have a projection screen with the front trio well-spaced.
Fronts are beefy and well-suited to the room and the receiver is up to the challenge. Good stuff.

* Sounds like the side-surrounds you had were the matching Klipsch dipoles. What made you get rid of them?

* 8 feet high is more than enough.

* Wasn't aware of the Niles PRO870FX, but seems like it'd fit the bill nicely - It's pretty efficient, has multiple drivers, a large woofer and a large cabinet. Having dipole/bipole switchability with the bass always in phase gives it an advantage over the Infinity.

My only gripe with the Niles would be the front-firing tweeter/squawker. I've found that the side-drivers tend to get completely overwhelmed when you have a frontal drivers firing toward you. So I'd wonder if it's possible to dial down or switch off the front tweeter/squawker? Probably not.

* In your room, with your distances, I really wouldn't be running Dipole at the sides. It's nice to have the option, and it's worth a try, but you'll probably find (as I did) that the combined effect of the 7.1 processing, the rear surrounds, the room dimensions and speaker distance/height give you all the diffusion you need.
Having dipoles with drivers running out of phase is mostly handy for reducing localization when you're stuck sitting nearer to side-surrounds than you'd like. But sonically, dipoles aren't as pure as bipoles.

* If another pair of ES-250's are hard to find, don't forget JBL makes the identical P52OWS (same parent company).

If I were you, I'd do one of the following...

1. Buy a pair of Niles, but use them for the rears (in Bipole). Their driver arrangement is better suited to that. Move the Infinities to the sides and run them in Bipole.
(Try Dipole if you like - but test carefully.)

2. Buy another pair of Infinities/JBLs for the sides. Run all four surrounds in Bipole.

3. Use Axiom QS8's for all 4 surrounds. What I'd definitely do before all else is buy a pair of QS8's on the 30-day trial offer.
Try them at the sides (and/or rear) and see how they go. If you're as impressed as most people are, then buy another pair and lose the Infinities.
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post #90 of 737 Old 03-11-2009, 05:26 PM
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Great advice!
I've priced the Niles and unfortunately, they are way out of my price range at this time. I'll order the Axiom QS8's and while I wait for them, continue my search for another pair of Infinities.
You've been a great resource and I thank you again!
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