SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 31 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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View Poll Results: There are many surround speakers out there now, but the ones below would have to get my highest reco
Mirage OMD5 (or any other Mirage Omnipole) 39 23.21%
JBL P520WS / Infinity ES-250 / Infinity Classia C255ES (Dual-monopole for 4 channels from 2 speakers, but also Bipole & Dipole switchable) 11 6.55%
Axiom QS8 or QS4 (Unique Quadpole design) 45 26.79%
Paradigm ADP (Many models available with this design, where the tweeters run Dipole, but the woofers are Bipole) 27 16.07%
Monitor Audio BXFX or RXFX (Single woofer, but the tweeters can switch to either Dipole or Bipole) 19 11.31%
Monitor Audio GXFX (6 drivers, including a ribbon. (Monopole / Dipole switchable) 18 10.71%
KEF 26/2DS (Dipole only, alas... but with two 6.5 inch side woofers and a front-firing 8 inch!!! ) 12 7.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 168. You may not vote on this poll

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post #901 of 915 Old 03-25-2015, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
If you haven't seen it already, this post is pretty good:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=170720
Thank you for the link.

Think I will try the surround speakers on the back wall, maybe starting at 6' high from the floor.

I am looking at using either the DefTech SR8040BP or the Klipsch RP-240S.
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post #902 of 915 Old 04-06-2015, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post
<p>I think it's time to start a thread discussing &amp; promoting the use of DIPOLE surround speakers in 5.1 and 7.1 systems.<br><br>
I've used many different types of speakers as surrounds. But until recently, I always thought that regular front-firing speakers were better for the surrounds, as they were a closer match to the fronts.<br><br>
Damn... was I wrong!<br><br>
After trying out a few types of dipoles and bipoles, I wonder why everyone doesn't have dipoles in their system. I'm also amazed that more hi-fi shops don't sell or push them... or even KNOW about them, as is all too often the case here in Australia !<br><br>
Quick Definitions....<br><br>
BIPOLE :<br>
A good bi-pole speaker will have two sets of drivers facing away from each other, firing sound out into the room. This sound will then cover a wider area, and bounce off the side and back walls, helping to create a bigger sound that allows more people in the room to "get surrounded".<br><br>
DIPOLE :<br>
The same as bi-pole , but the drivers on either side of the speaker will run out-of-phase with each other. THX recommend this. The advantage is that it's harder to tell exactly where the speaker is as it sounds more diffuse. It's also harder for you to get ear-bashed by one of the surround speakers if you're stuck sitting off to one side. So opens up the "sweet spot".<br><br>
So here are some advantages...<br><br>
1. A wider, bigger sound - much closer to the result you get from multiple surround speakers in a movie theatre.<br>
2. A much wider listening sweet spot for everyone in the room.<br>
3. They're easy to wall-mount.<br>
4. They're often more compact than a regular bookshelf speaker, and a lot more wall-friendly.<br><br>
Here's an interesting shoot-out between dipoles and front-firing speakers. There are six pages with pictures. This will link to the summary...<br><a href="http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/25/index5.html" target="_blank">http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/25/index5.html</a><br><br>
Here's some more blurb: "The Case for Dipole surrounds":<br><a href="http://www.paradigm.com/en/pdf/dipolar_confusion.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.paradigm.com/en/pdf/dipolar_confusion.pdf</a><br><br>
One issue dipoles can have compared to bipole or front-firing speakers, is reduced bass. This is because the bass drivers are running out-of-phase with each other. Be aware though, that several manufacturers make dipoles that avoid this problem....<br><br>
PARADIGM really know how to make great surround speakers. Their ADP190 would have to be my favourite all-round surround speaker for the majority of people. Paradigm design all their surround speakers so that the deeper bass is kept in phase....<br><a href="http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/speaker-type-surrounds.paradigm" target="_blank">http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/...ounds.paradigm</a><br><br>
MONITOR AUDIO also make nice surround speakers. The less expensive models have only one bass driver, but they can be switched between dipole and bipole, like this one...<br><a href="http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/product.php?range=3&amp;product=21" target="_blank">http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/produ...e=3&amp;product=21</a><br><br>
JBL make some THX-approved models...<br><a href="http://www.jbl.com/home/products/category.aspx?CatId=SSS&amp;Language=ENG&amp;Count ry=US&amp;Region=USA" target="_blank">http://www.jbl.com/home/products/cat...=US&amp;Region=USA</a><br><br>
INFINITY make a unique speaker called the ES250. I own a pair of these. They can be switched between dipole, bipole and dual-monopole, where they operate as two separate speaker channels in one wall-mounted unit. Handy for 7.1 where you can't mount rear-wall speakers....<br><a href="http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=BETAES250BK&amp;cat=SAS&a mp;ser=BET&amp;Language=ENG&amp;Region=USA&amp;Cou ntry=US" target="_blank">http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...USA&amp;Country=US</a><br><br>
JBL now make one just like the Infinity...<br><a href="http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=P52OWS&amp;Language=ENG&a mp;Country=US&amp;Region=USA&amp;cat=SSS&amp;ser=P ER" target="_blank">http://www.jbl.com/home/products/pro...at=SSS&amp;ser=PER</a><br><br><br>
ANY OTHER THOUGHTS OR SUGGESTIONS?</p>
I only use dipoles when speaker location for the rears is limited. In small or narrow rooms they give a depth to the rear audio information. When I am not dealing with acoustic issues due to location, geometry of the room etc. I always use a conventional rear and my favorite will surprise you. I absolutely love the Paradigm Stylus 370s but not the newest ones. The highs are hard with them. They are versatile to mount, efficient, can be run as a "large" speaker and have a nicely balanced voicing with respectable midbass. They also, and this you only get from a monopole speaker, give a beautiful sense of location for rear action or well engineered surround music. Probably my favorite speaker from Paradigm. I am not a fan of how they voice speakers in general. Too Klipschy on the top end.
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post #903 of 915 Old 04-12-2015, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
From what I've read on the newer, upcoming object-oriented audio formats (like Dolby Atmos and DTS Multi-dimensional Audio... it really looks like exact timbre matching monopoles are the surround speakers of choice due to the type of mixing done.
FYI
The highly directionalized height/depth/width metadata rendering "cues" are embedded in the track and these codecs work with more speakers (true overhead height quadrants included), so it appears dipole surrounds would improperly introduce an added smearing effect to these types of advanced soundtracks.
FYI
True with Dipoles. In that respect, their day is over.

But not Bipoles.

The question you always have to ask is this... How many surround speakers does a commercial cinema or mixing theatre have, and how many surround speakers are you using at home?

This is the single question that too many people forget when sorting out their surrounds.

I also want to reiterate that having 2 pairs of surrounds (side & rear), then using Prologic IIx to convert all 5.1 material to 7.1 is the single biggest improvement most people can make to their surround soundstaging. Period.






By the way, very fond of these Paradigm's when it comes to sheer quality, design, build, driver arrangement, looks, and sheer bang for buck.
These are surround speakers that I'd recommend to many folks....

Paradigm Surround 1

Paradigm Surround 3

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Last edited by Electric_Haggis; 04-12-2015 at 08:41 PM.
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post #904 of 915 Old 04-12-2015, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post
True with Dipoles. In that respect, their day is over.

But not Bipoles.

The question you always have to ask is this... How many surround speakers does a commercial cinema or mixing theatre have, and how many surround speakers are you using at home?

This is the single question that too many people forget when sorting out their surrounds.

I also want to reiterate that having 2 pairs of surrounds (side & rear), then using Prologic IIx to convert all 5.1 material to 7.1 is the single biggest improvement most people can make to their surround soundstaging. Period.

By the way, VERY font of these Paradigm's when it comes to sheer quality, design, build, driver arrangement, looks, and sheer bang for buck.
These are surround speakers that I'd recommend to many folks....

Paradigm Surround 1

Paradigm Surround 3

However, you can (over time) have more speakers than 7.1 or even 9.1 with the scalability of Dolby Atmos and DTS:X (they can have arrays just like in a commercial theater). Bipoles may not be too bad if you're sitting extremely close to the surrounds, but monopoles are still recommended for the 3D object based formats if possible.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #905 of 915 Old 04-12-2015, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
However, you can (over time) have more speakers than 7.1 or even 9.1 with the scalability of Dolby Atmos and DTS:X (they can have arrays just like in a commercial theater). Bipoles may not be too bad if you're sitting extremely close to the surrounds, but monopoles are still recommended for the 3D object based formats if possible.
Again, the thing is that you're supplanting entire speaker arrays with just 1,2 or 3 pairs.

I've spoken to a couple of pro film soundies, who agree that Bipoles (NOT Dipoles) are a good solution even with Atmos at the domestic level


Also worth noting that the vast, vast, vast minority of material available to us all is actually Atmos-encoded.
(and a mere fraction of that is actually worth watching, even if it is good demo material: )


But, be it an A-List mega-blockbuster or a foreign indie rom-com.... ALL 5.1 material will benefit from doing what I describe above.
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Last edited by Electric_Haggis; 04-12-2015 at 09:16 PM.
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post #906 of 915 Old 04-23-2015, 07:06 PM
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This thread needs to be un-stickied and replaced with a single informative post...

Surround monopole speakers should be used with all modern codecs and should be placed an adequate distance from your head. The exact positioning would benefit from conforming as closely as possible to rules laid out Dolby Atmos and DTS X.

In the long run, speaker placement for surrounds will be about putting in as many speakers as possible while covering the surface area of hemispheric area as evenly as possibly around the main listening position.

Anyone building today should wire for around 24 speaker locations or more. Wire is cheap.

A plan for pointing the speakers toward the main listening position is reasonable although not 100% necessary if the speaker has reasonable off axis response.

I would recommend 3 layers of speakers: one set at ear level, another set high on the wall, and another set on the ceiling. You could also compromise by choosing the height+vog OR ceiling layer. Honestly, if you are wealthy enough or care enough to do this right, do 3 layers and be done with it. You will have a lifetime of enjoyment out of this setup. No need to get stingy at this point.

If you love surround sound, object oriented audio is well worth the effort. "7.1" will sound obviously inferior once you are used to 15+ channels.

Past object oriented surround, doing "more" within our lifetimes doesn't seem particularly very likely. Speakers are commodity objects with a fixed cost and the laws of physics would suggest that we are unlikely to change their general design too much more... Object oriented audio is what we have all been silently been waiting for... go for it!

Blazar!
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post #907 of 915 Old 05-11-2015, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
This thread needs to be un-stickied and replaced with a single informative post...

Surround monopole speakers should be used with all modern codecs and should be placed an adequate distance from your head. The exact positioning would benefit from conforming as closely as possible to rules laid out Dolby Atmos and DTS X.

In the long run, speaker placement for surrounds will be about putting in as many speakers as possible while covering the surface area of hemispheric area as evenly as possibly around the main listening position.

Anyone building today should wire for around 24 speaker locations or more. Wire is cheap.

A plan for pointing the speakers toward the main listening position is reasonable although not 100% necessary if the speaker has reasonable off axis response.

I would recommend 3 layers of speakers: one set at ear level, another set high on the wall, and another set on the ceiling. You could also compromise by choosing the height+vog OR ceiling layer. Honestly, if you are wealthy enough or care enough to do this right, do 3 layers and be done with it. You will have a lifetime of enjoyment out of this setup. No need to get stingy at this point.

If you love surround sound, object oriented audio is well worth the effort. "7.1" will sound obviously inferior once you are used to 15+ channels.

Past object oriented surround, doing "more" within our lifetimes doesn't seem particularly very likely. Speakers are commodity objects with a fixed cost and the laws of physics would suggest that we are unlikely to change their general design too much more... Object oriented audio is what we have all been silently been waiting for... go for it!
Hi,

I've ordered two Focal Electra SR 1000 BE surround speakers. They will go on the back wall, about 2 feet above ear height and placed about 1 1/2 feet behind my sofa. let's say the perfect spot when placed behind.
They can be used as Bipole or dual monopole.
Which would bring me the best result? setting them in Bipole and create a 5.1 system or setting them in dual monopole and creating a 7.1 system.
Placement on de side walls is not an option.
The surround on the left of me will be close to the side wall.
The surround on the right of me is about 7 feet away from the side wall.
The "back wall " is not really a wall. It's a low wall of about 3 feet high, above is open to the ceiling.
Wide open space behind the surrounds and the low wall.
Any thoughts?
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post #908 of 915 Old 05-11-2015, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackLace View Post
Hi,

I've ordered two Focal Electra SR 1000 BE surround speakers. They will go on the back wall, about 2 feet above ear height and placed about 1 1/2 feet behind my sofa. let's say the perfect spot when placed behind.
They can be used as Bipole or dual monopole.
Which would bring me the best result? setting them in Bipole and create a 5.1 system or setting them in dual monopole and creating a 7.1 system.
Placement on the side walls is not an option.
The surround on the left of me will be close to the side wall.
The surround on the right of me is about 7 feet away from the side wall.
The "back wall " is not really a wall. It's a low wall of about 3 feet high, above is open to the ceiling.
Wide open space behind the surrounds and the low wall.
Any thoughts?
Bipole. 5.1

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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I have never been that impressed with the dipole ambience phenomenon even though that is what THX recommended long ago for rear surround speakers. Now, in the 21st century, I can safely say monopole or maybe bipole for a slightly more diffusive sound should be considered.

Blazar!
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post #910 of 915 Old 05-12-2015, 07:25 AM
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ok guys, thanks for the advice
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post #911 of 915 Old 05-20-2015, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
I have never been that impressed with the dipole ambience phenomenon even though that is what THX recommended long ago for rear surround speakers. Now, in the 21st century, I can safely say monopole or maybe bipole for a slightly more diffusive sound should be considered.

Try tripole

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post #912 of 915 Old 05-24-2015, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
If you haven't seen it already, this post isTha pretty good:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=170720
That is excellent! I'm trying to decide if your bipoles you are selling will work in my situation. There is no "back of the room" as shown in the drawings, rather they would sit on or above a bookcase unit, above which is an opening to the great room below. I hadn't considered the possibility of facing them forward as shown in some of the schematics. If I did so, they would not be any higher than the listener.

I'm wondering if bipole option 1 or 2 would work here.

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
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post #913 of 915 Old 07-14-2015, 03:22 PM
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I know you are going to think I am just a silly heart! I kid you not, although Tru-Audio is mostly junk, and btw that junk, the CT 55A is not so bad at $15-$25 when shipping is local, they are really not so bad as surround speakers on a small system/

Now here is the deal. The PHT SUR is really a great di-pole, bi-pole, switchable speaker. The build quality is quite good, fiber cones, not metal like the CTs, they have an 8" front firing woofer, on each side, a 4" cone and a quality 1" dome. They are marked left and right, so when you switch, you have the correct one, facing close to the rear wall switching phase. The build quality is very high and I swear these will best Axiom QS8 speakers!

Now the deal here is they have a retail at $1500, but as I read here, they have no effective market strategist system, given this, I picked up a pair for $350 shipped!

I had a better pair of di-pole speakers, do not recall the name, but high-end and these did not outperform the SUR! I sold them off for over a grand and now am happy with these.

Mainly I prefer B&W speakers, also Martin Logan; yes, I know they are different sounding and have a different appeal, then I like ML speakers for music and the midrange quality B&W for HT. I use the B&W CDM 7NT, and the CDM NT center with these seemingly odd matched Tru-Audio; I find the mating of the two brands to be near theater quality!

Ok, the gear has much to do with this and that is high-end; the SUR speakers are powered by an Anthem MCA 20 and this does well with the Bryston amplifier I use for the other speakers.

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post #914 of 915 Old Yesterday, 06:38 AM
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I've always used bookshelf's for side surrounds. I think I'm finally going to try some bipoles to see if I like them.
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Originally Posted by DeePDiSHeD View Post
I've always used bookshelf's for side surrounds. I think I'm finally going to try some bipoles to see if I like them.
I recommend bipoles if you are close to the side/surround speakers. When I used monopoles for side/surrounds I just didn't like them.

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