SURROUND SPEAKERS - Bipole, Dipole, Quadpole, Omnipole... WHICH ONE? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: There are many surround speakers out there now, but the ones below would have to get my highest reco
Mirage OMD5 (or any other Mirage Omnipole) 23 23.23%
JBL P520WS / Infinity ES-250 / Infinity Classia C255ES (Dual-monopole for 4 channels from 2 speakers, but also Bipole & Dipole switchable) 4 4.04%
Axiom QS8 or QS4 (Unique Quadpole design) 26 26.26%
Paradigm ADP (Many models available with this design, where the tweeters run Dipole, but the woofers are Bipole) 17 17.17%
Monitor Audio BXFX or RXFX (Single woofer, but the tweeters can switch to either Dipole or Bipole) 13 13.13%
Monitor Audio GXFX (6 drivers, including a ribbon. (Monopole / Dipole switchable) 11 11.11%
KEF 26/2DS (Dipole only, alas... but with two 6.5 inch side woofers and a front-firing 8 inch!!! ) 5 5.05%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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post #91 of 703 Old 03-11-2009, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

Great advice!
I've priced the Niles and unfortunately, they are way out of my price range at this time. I'll order the Axiom QS8's and while I wait for them, continue my search for another pair of Infinities.
You've been a great resource and I thank you again!

No worries.

No big loss, not getting the Niles.

I've tweaked a few small things in the above post, so maybe read it again.

Let us know how you go.... and send some pics of your room sometime!
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post #92 of 703 Old 03-11-2009, 06:18 PM
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Placed the order for 4 QS8's! Should be here next Wednesday.
I've been told by the sales rep to rest assured that these speakers will fill my large room without question. Fingers are crossed!
Thanks again all for the advice and experiences.
I'll post when I get them and test them out!
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post #93 of 703 Old 03-11-2009, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Great!

PS: What made you get rid of the Klipsch surrounds?
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post #94 of 703 Old 03-11-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

Great!

PS: What made you get rid of the Klipsch surrounds?

Never had Klipsch surrounds. Don't like the look or price of the RS 62's and couldn't afford the KS-525 THX Ultra 2 surrounds.
Maybe some day I can find a used set of the Ultra 2 surrounds and have the complete Ultra 2 set up, but if the Axioms sound as good as everyone is reporting, there will be no need to look any further.
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post #95 of 703 Old 03-11-2009, 09:14 PM
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Very interesting thread, but this puzzles me: when I see people talking about comparing dipole vs bipole vs monopole by switching speaker modes, I don't see anything about setting up the receiver with different equalizations for the different speaker modes. I'd think it would be important to do that.

Greg Lee
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post #96 of 703 Old 03-11-2009, 10:37 PM
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I just purchased Paradigm ADP-590 v.5 to complete my 7.1 speaker set-up.

Could anyone please tell me how you mounted your dipoles/bipoles onto the wall? For example: 1. did you screw/nail into a stud? 2. did you use anchors or 3. did you screw/nail into bare dry wall?

The stud I found will only fit one of the two screws from the mounting bracket.
I'm worried that only one screw supported by a stud will not hold the 17.5 lbs. weight of the ADP-590s.
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post #97 of 703 Old 03-12-2009, 01:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djgcue View Post

I just purchased Paradigm ADP-590 v.5 to complete my 7.1 speaker set-up.

Could anyone please tell me how you mounted your dipoles/bipoles onto the wall? For example: 1. did you screw/nail into a stud? 2. did you use anchors or 3. did you screw/nail into bare dry wallhttp://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=16023732?

The stud I found will only fit one of the two screws from the mounting bracket.
I'm worried that only one screw supported by a stud will not hold the 17.5 lbs. weight of the ADP-590s.

Best bet is to contact Paradigm directly. They're usually very quick to respond.
(But put "URGENT!!" in the subject line, anyway...)
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post #98 of 703 Old 03-12-2009, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djgcue View Post

I just purchased Paradigm ADP-590 v.5 to complete my 7.1 speaker set-up.

Could anyone please tell me how you mounted your dipoles/bipoles onto the wall? For example: 1. did you screw/nail into a stud? 2. did you use anchors or 3. did you screw/nail into bare dry wall?

The stud I found will only fit one of the two screws from the mounting bracket.
I'm worried that only one screw supported by a stud will not hold the 17.5 lbs. weight of the ADP-590s.


No need to contact Paradigm.... I only caught 1 stud with my ADP's and the other hole you can either use something like this...


#1 or you can use this... #2

I used the #1 for the ADP. I used 4 of the #2 to hold up a metal wine rack that holds 10 bottles of wine... They work just fine... either one...
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post #99 of 703 Old 03-12-2009, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

No need to contact Paradigm.... I only caught 1 stud with my ADP's and the other hole you can either use something like this...


#1 or you can use this... #2

I used the #1 for the ADP. I used 4 of the #2 to hold up a metal wine rack that holds 10 bottles of wine... They work just fine... either one...

Thanks! Yeah, I going for #1 too.
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post #100 of 703 Old 04-01-2009, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

Placed the order for 4 QS8's! Should be here next Wednesday.
I've been told by the sales rep to rest assured that these speakers will fill my large room without question. Fingers are crossed!
Thanks again all for the advice and experiences.
I'll post when I get them and test them out!

Sean! Howzit going !
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post #101 of 703 Old 04-22-2009, 01:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Is everything alright?

How did you go with the QS8's?
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post #102 of 703 Old 05-04-2009, 11:40 AM
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I am setting a new home theater in a spare bedroom and would like some input on a speaker decision.

I have PMC DB1+ across the front. I am considering getting the Axiom QS8's as side surrounds and I have 2 in ceiling speakers for the rears for 7.1.

I was also maybe considering getting the PMC GB1's for the front and moving my DB1's to the side surrounds.

Would like input on which way might be the best?
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post #103 of 703 Old 05-04-2009, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtbig View Post

I am setting a new home theater in a spare bedroom and would like some input on a speaker decision.

I have PMC DB1+ across the front. I am considering getting the Axiom QS8's as side surrounds and I have 2 in ceiling speakers for the rears for 7.1.

I was also maybe considering getting the PMC GB1's for the front and moving my DB1's to the side surrounds.

Would like input on which way might be the best?

My first suggestion is that if you are willing to risk eating a $30.00 return shipping (Axioms estimated cost to return 2 surrounds) then order them for a 30 day trial. This is the only real way you will know if you will like the way they integrate with your other speakers and room.

Otherwise it boils down to a few things. Your preference between multi-polar surround vs direct radiating surround speakers. Whether tonal differences between your main, surround and rear speakers bothers you (most people notice this more with music than movies). Also how much do you want to upgrade your front speakers since if you go that route you might as well give the DB1+s a shot as surrounds and see how you like them.

I use QS8s for surrounds and love them. They can be both enveloping and directional as needed. I've found that using them as surrounds they are so good that when I added rear speakers for 7.1 the improvement was marginal at best.

Cheers,
Dean

"Tact is just not saying true stuff" Cordelia Chase.
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post #104 of 703 Old 08-02-2009, 01:51 PM
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Electric_Haggis...great thread!! It is interesting how in 2007 when this thread was on fire, (1) although bipole and dipole was defined, half the posters used the term bipole and dipole interchangeably, (2) I felt that it was not really clarified or recommended to use bipoles on a rear wall (especially if seating is close to the rear wall) and dipoles on side walls. If I am not mistaken, that is what a lot (if not most) AVS members currently recommend. Actually, a lot of the suggestions that were made was to use dipoles on the side and back postions.

To clarify, I want to bring up the specific (and common) scenario of when the main seating postion is along or close to the back wall of the listening room/area. The advice that I have heard that it is best to have a 5.1 set-up and use BIPOLE speakers positioned wide on the back wall, 2 feet above the listening plane. If dipoles were used on the back wall the sweet spot would be small and more than likely the listener would be sitting in a null.
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post #105 of 703 Old 08-02-2009, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

Electric_Haggis...great thread!! It is interesting how in 2007 when this thread was on fire, (1) although bipole and dipole was defined, half the posters used the term bipole and dipole interchangeably, (2) I felt that it was not really clarified or recommended to use bipoles on a rear wall (especially if seating is close to the rear wall) and dipoles on side walls. If I am not mistaken, that is what a lot (if not most) AVS members currently recommend. Actually, a lot of the suggestions that were made was to use dipoles on the side and back postions.

To clarify, I want to bring up the specific (and common) scenario of when the main seating postion is along or close to the back wall of the listening room/area. The advice that I have heard that it is best to have a 5.1 set-up and use BIPOLE speakers positioned wide on the back wall, 2 feet above the listening plane. If dipoles were used on the back wall the sweet spot would be small and more than likely the listener would be sitting in a null.

Further back, I posted a pic of the 7.0 setup in my old place.

If you click on my signature, you'll see that the new place pretty much fits your description.

I've gone through many different types of surround setups over the ages - dipole, bipole, towers, bookshelves and combos of each. Nine times out of ten, a 7.0/7.1 setup with bipoles/quadpoles on the back wall, and bipoles, quadpoles or dipoles on the side walls is the way to go.

If my side walls permitted it, ideally I'd cram in a pair of either Axiom QS8s, or Paradigm ADP-190's.
Alas, they won't quite fit. But I'm getting surprisingly good results running the Infinity ES250's in dual-monopole, with some bounce off the side wall/window helping somewhat.

If you can't accommodate speakers on the side walls, then I'd strongly suggest you either do what I'm doing, or even better - have 4 separate speakers along the back wall (the Axioms would probably be the best for this).

Dipoles are a little finicky about where you place them and where you sit.
If you can't place them on either side of you and consistently be able to sit in the null-zone, then most of their benefit is lost, and you can often end up with "phasey" sound and less spaciousness.

At any rate, the common problem with dipoles is when the woofers also run out of phase, resulting in compromised bass. So if you do use dipoles, make sure they're something like the Paradigms, which only run the tweeters out of phase.

I'm usually finding that matching quadpoles or bipoles are better for the sides unless you're forced to sit uncomfortably close, in which case dipoles can help.
It really is a try-before-you-buy situation...
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post #106 of 703 Old 08-15-2009, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudman View Post


What was interesting is that a small monopole was clearly second to one with a large woofer. So much so that placing large fullrange floorstanders in place of monopole surrounds were often preferred. This indicates much support for an Axiom QS8 type speaker. A large woofer area that moves more air than standard small surrounds is definitely preferred.

Rudman, thanks for taking the time to share you experiences as they are very valuable!!

As you have said, room dynamics largely dicatate surround dynamics. Like many people, my listening room is a family room where the main seating/listening area is against a back wall. With this type of set-up, I think I have decided that I will stay with a 5.1 set-up for now vs a 7.1.

With your concepts in place it seems that bipoles on the back wall, at least 2 feet above the listener's ear and spaced as wide as possible may be my best option..right? Here is a room pic of my OLD sofa and set-up:


Here is the new sectional. The MAIN seating area is only against the back wall.



From what I understand, you picked monopoles in situation due to its potential to perform down to 80hz. I agree that it is probably hard for speakers with dual drivers in a small enclosure to perform those frequencies; however, there are a few good single driver bipole/dipole speakers. A couple of examlpes include the Energy RC-R, Energy C-R-100, and the Polk Fxi-A6. I was thinking of something along the lines of the Polk Fxi-A6 because that steep angle would seen to create a little more envelopment, and the opposing tweeter may create a diffuse effect from wall/room reflection. Also cool that the tweeter alone can be used in a dipole configuration...with out an opposing driver fighting for airspace.
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post #107 of 703 Old 08-15-2009, 01:33 PM
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Deepstang, my experience sounds like it's almost identical to yours. What I found to provide great results are bipoles high and wide on the back wall for a 5.1 setup. Doing the same should produce a great surround field. Also, my Klipsch bipoles have no problem playing down to 80 Hz. You can pics at the link in my sig.

Steve

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post #108 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Agreed.

But if you only want 2 speakers on that rear wall, have a very good think going 7.1 using dual-monopoles like the ones JBL or Infinity make. (The Infinity BETA series have now been superseded with the Classia, which are very easy on the eye.)

Both brands use dual 5-inch woofers - better in many ways than a single 6.5-inch, especially when it's facing away from you.

My two Infinity ES-250's are rated down to 60Hz (-3dB).
In two different rooms, I've tried them as Large, and then Small, with the crossover set to 80,100,120 and 150Hz.

Obviously, the higher I set the crossover, the less bass they generated.

But in the end I went with 120 or 150Hz.
Why?

As a previous poster said, it's all very room-dependant.
In my case, I found the bass was a lot cleaner, smoother and tighter when the surrounds weren't putting out the lower frequencies (and that was with a serious power amp driving them).

Two things to remember:
1. Deeper bass from wall-mounted speakers can often be an ugly thing to hear.
2. I've yet to hear a single deep-bass surround effect, and I've yet to speak to one sound-mixer who uses them!
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post #109 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 10:23 AM
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Rear in walls,
Just found this thread.
After referencing all the links, the experts determine di poles where the most usefull with blind testing. You on the other hand are saying bi/monopoles - and you have expeienced all types. Anyway I will be going 5.1 in a small room with my seating position on the couch right at the back wall. I cannot use side walls so it must be in walls on the back wall. Since I have never had 5.1 and will use movies 70% and music 30% I believe di poles would be best. Will I need pivoting tweeters. I am worried about the null area but the experts say the bounce back from the front wall covers the null area. Would I be wrong with this di pole arrangement as I have a very small room.
Dave
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post #110 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehale View Post

Rear in walls,
Just found this thread.
After referencing all the links, the experts determine di poles where the most usefull with blind testing. You on the other hand are saying bi/monopoles - and you have expeienced all types. Anyway I will be going 5.1 in a small room with my seating position on the couch right at the back wall. I cannot use side walls so it must be in walls on the back wall. Since I have never had 5.1 and will use movies 70% and music 30% I believe di poles would be best. Will I need pivoting tweeters. I am worried about the null area but the experts say the bounce back from the front wall covers the null area. Would I be wrong with this di pole arrangement as I have a very small room.
Dave

From what I have been reading from AVS members, a general rule of thumb is when placing a speaker on the back wall it is better to use bipoles. If you use dipoles and the seating position is against the same wall of the speaker, the listener will be sitting in the null. If you ARE mounting them on the side wall, than dipoles will produce a nice effect where the listener will not be in the null. I know I have read great info from Fireman325 in the past on this subject area.
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post #111 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post

Agreed.

But if you only want 2 speakers on that rear wall, have a very good think going 7.1 using dual-monopoles like the ones JBL or Infinity make. (The Infinity BETA series have now been superseded with the Classia, which are very easy on the eye.)

Both brands use dual 5-inch woofers - better in many ways than a single 6.5-inch, especially when it's facing away from you.

My two Infinity ES-250's are rated down to 60Hz (-3dB).
In two different rooms, I've tried them as Large, and then Small, with the crossover set to 80,100,120 and 150Hz.

Obviously, the higher I set the crossover, the less bass they generated.

But in the end I went with 120 or 150Hz.
Why?

As a previous poster said, it's all very room-dependant.
In my case, I found the bass was a lot cleaner, smoother and tighter when the surrounds weren't putting out the lower frequencies (and that was with a serious power amp driving them).

Two things to remember:
1. Deeper bass from wall-mounted speakers can often be an ugly thing to hear.
2. I've yet to hear a single deep-bass surround effect, and I've yet to speak to one sound-mixer who uses them!

Audyssey rates my current JBL in-wall surrounds at Full Range. I think they can handle 80 Hz and higher ok, so that is where I have them crossed. IMO, I have noticed that some of the newer movies incorporate lower frequencies in the surrounds. It seems to keep better continuity in sound when items transition from front to back or vice-versa. A couple of quick examples is the thunder rolling in the beginning of "300", where it seems that the surrounds are intended to reproduce the deep rolling thunder sound. Also, in Spider-Man 3, where the sandman is in the garbage disintegrator.when the machine is spinning, the low frequencies from the machine is meant to do a 360 around the listener.
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post #112 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

From what I have been reading from AVS members, a general rule of thumb is when placing a speaker on the back wall it is better to use bipoles. If you use dipoles and the seating position is against the same wall of the speaker, the listener will be sitting in the null. If you ARE mounting them on the side wall, than dipoles will produce a nice effect where the listener will not be in the null. I know I have read great info from Fireman325 in the past on this subject area.

Agreed again.

Davehale, could you copy some links to those articles?
I think you'll find the "experts" preferred dipoles only at the side positions, and when seated in the null.

If you can go to a shop and have a listen for yourself, it may be helpful.

Personally, if I were you I'd be playing it safe and getting speakers that can be switched between dipole and bipole (and preferably dual-monopole).
It's very, very hard to be sure until you've got them into your own room.

JBL, Infinity and Monitor Audio make switchables. (Can anyone suggest others?)

If you must get dipole-only, Paradigm ADP's have the edge as the woofers aren't out of phase. (Any other brands do this?)
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post #113 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

Audyssey rates my current JBL in-wall surrounds at Full Range. I think they can handle 80 Hz and higher ok, so that is where I have them crossed. IMO, I have noticed that some of the newer movies incorporate lower frequencies in the surrounds. It seems to keep better continuity in sound when items transition from front to back or vice-versa. A couple of quick examples is the thunder rolling in the beginning of "300", where it seems that the surrounds are intended to reproduce the deep rolling thunder sound. Also, in Spider-Man 3, where the sandman is in the garbage disintegrator.when the machine is spinning, the low frequencies from the machine is meant to do a 360 around the listener.

Cheers - I'll have to check them out sometime. Let me know if you think of others.

At any rate, with my particular room, it still isn't worth the extra booming & resonance issues to have the surrounds putting out the lower frequencies.

But as I've recently put in a couple of bass traps, I may have another go...
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post #114 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis View Post


JBL, Infinity and Monitor Audio make switchables. (Can anyone suggest others?)

If you must get dipole-only, Paradigm ADP's have the edge as the woofers aren't out of phase. (Any other brands do this?)


Mr. E_Haggis, first, I want to thank you for being so kind and helpful with all this GREAT info!!

I want to also add the Polk Fxi-A6 and the Energy RC-R to the list of surrounds that have switches that can be toggled between bipole and dipole. I posted links to those speakers a few posts up. It is kind of cool how the Polk has the angled single driver, but with 2 tweeters that can be toggled between bipole and dipole. I agree that dipoples with 2 larger drivers struggle (due to out of phase competition) with lower frequency accuracy and reproduction.
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post #115 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 05:33 PM
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The very first post with the very first link, Home Theater says all the tests were the best for di poles on the rear wall- unless I am interpreting the article wrong. I am ready to buy but will wait for some of your responses. I may try the audition route as suggested
Dave
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post #116 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 06:57 PM
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OK, Now that I read the whole thread, for my 5.1 rear speakers I-
A forget about Dipoles
B Use bipoles
When a jet plane flys from front to rear I dont want the plane going into the twilight zone
C 3/4 monopoles?
If A then place speakers 3 to 5 feet above listener spread well apart on rear wall. I cannot use side wall as my room is only 14 feet at the rear wall.
For musis I will stay with 2 channel hi rez
Now I do want a clean diffuse movie like sound so what are a few suggestions? No one has mentioned Speakercraft, Def Tech in walls if so which ones?
Dave
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post #117 of 703 Old 08-16-2009, 11:48 PM
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My smallish (2,250 cu. ft.) dedicated HT has had both direct and Bipole surrounds in it. The Bipoles are in the permanent installation.

I've got four of the JLB Synthesis® S4Ai THX units. Yes, boo-hoo they're THX-certified. They're also switchable to Dipole, Direct, and Dual Drive configuration. They're also in small enclosures containing six drivers. Let's see, any other deficits--ah, they're in-walls that can also be mounted on-wall.

In a properly set up room, they sound fantastic. The judicious placement of diffusers helps a lot, as does the fact that the 8" anodized woofer and one of the three Ti tweeters sends sound direct into the room.

Thus, when Legolas shoots arrows over your head, they whiz over your head and zing behind you until they thump into an Orc.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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post #118 of 703 Old 08-17-2009, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehale View Post

The very first post with the very first link, Home Theater says all the tests were the best for di poles on the rear wall- unless I am interpreting the article wrong. I am ready to buy but will wait for some of your responses. I may try the audition route as suggested
Dave

Dave, I am glad that you brought that up b/c when I re-read through this whole thread I had the same questions in the beginning. As I read the entire thread I realized that most of those questions (such as using dipoles or bipoles on the back wall) were answered. It is cool how technology keeps advancing, and as such we need to change our thought/concept process.

To answer your next post, I must first admit that I am just reciting things that I have read. I currently have in-wall monopoles positioned high (look at my pics above) that do a decent job as my rear surrounds. From what I have read and discussed I have decided on bipoles on my rear wall because I feel that it will help to create a wide and diffuse sound, but will still be relatively directional and accurate.

With the advent of all the new audio codecs, I agree with you in that it is not just ambient sounds that come from the rear surrounds but specific information that is meant to create the intended effect. That is why you probably saw dipoles recommended in most situations in the beginning of the thread. IMO, I think the whole concept of how content should be reproduced by the surrounds was in a transitional period (in the minds of audiophiles) due to the non-directional and non content specific use of surrounds 20 years ago.
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post #119 of 703 Old 08-17-2009, 07:21 AM
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When you're using dipole speakers, you are meant to sit in their "null" area so you receive the proper effect. The only way this is really possible is to use them on the side walls. This is why dipoles are position sensitive. That's not to say that putting them on the back wall won't produce results you find pleasing, but remember when you're not in the null area you're getting sound more directly from one side or the other of a dipole, rather than the out of phase sound waves converging in the null area. For all practical purposes, when this is happening, you might as well be using monopoles or bipoles.

Bipoles, on the other hand, are essentially two monopole speakers in one housing firing out in multiple directions to create a wide sound field. As a result there is no null area, and they are very forgiving when it comes to placement. This is why they work well on side walls or the rear wall.

Steve

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post #120 of 703 Old 08-17-2009, 07:27 AM
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Can one dipole or bipole be use in a 5.1 or 7.1 setp? Or do a pair has to be use in the setup?
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