Ascend Sierra-B&W 805S-Swan D2.1SE-Tyler Acoustics Ref Monitor - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 10:06 AM
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Craig...don't you have a pair of ACI Sapphire XL's you could throw into the mix? I know you heard them before, I just don't remember if they were yours.

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post #62 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 10:46 AM
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Enjoying the thread so far, looking forward to the blind tests and more sonic comparisons, thx for the effort

Could you give us a little bit more detail on why you choose this particular test though? And what it's supposed to establish?

One thing I find might be problematic is that when playing a tone, you don't really know how that tone corresponds to the rest of the frequency spectrum... For example, speaker1 might be -8dB at 36hz vs Speaker2 only be -4dB at 36hz vs the rest of your FR... So even if speaker1 could play that test tone louder, it would always sound recessed compared to the other speaker when playing music...

But I guess the idea was just to see what it takes to bottom out the woofer...

Anyhow, I can read the graph, but don't quite see it's relevance... When playing at high SPL, will speakers usually crap out from 36/45 hz before 60, 80, 120, etc..? It's interesting, seeing their performance But I think it's hard to establish something like bass performance/response from it...

Would you have 20hz-20khz measurements taken at your listening position from all speakers? That would be interesting to see too And would give more of an indication of sonic signature. But in room measurements like that... In my experience and room... Can really be problematic... (really not very consistent, and you measure a lot of "the room")
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post #63 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Curtis - I still own the Sapphire XL's, and they will probably get returned to me when we have the GTG here in September "Laserman" from the AV123 forum has been playing with them for a few months.

Grandarf ... I am doing this because it is fun. There is no agenda here to establish anything. The bass output was posted so guys could see how much bass they could expect in a high end, no subwoofer 2 channel system.

Posting a room sweep would do nothing but confuse ... each speaker will measure differently due to room interaction ... unlike the deep bass SPL readings I took, which will remain pretty consistent.
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post #64 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Curtis - I still own the Sapphire XL's, and they will probably get returned to me when we have the GTG here in September "Laserman" from the AV123 forum has been playing with them for a few months.

Well gee, I'd like to borrow some speakers too. Kind of like a library. No rental fee?

No worries. Thought it would be interesting to throw into the mix. Wish I could find a cheap plane ticket. Heck, some golf would be fun the day after.

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post #65 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Curtis ... I can easily add the Sapphire XL's to the mix when I get them back ... in fact, I got confirmation that Laserman will be coming, so they will be at the GTG, so everyone can hear them.

Check out Southwest into Cleveland ... Jack lives close to the airport, and I am sure you could catch a ride with him ...
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post #66 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 11:23 AM
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Thx Craig Yeah just wanted to point out that "The bass output was posted so guys could see how much bass they could expect in a high end, no subwoofer 2 channel system." isn't really something you can see in the graphs. Like you said, the Sierras had more apparent bass than BWs, yet Sierra/BWs look pretty similar to me in the graphs... It's not because one can play louder that it will sound like more bass.. (maybe its more recessed...) Or one might not be able to play it very loud, yet could be played louder than the rest of the spectrum (bass emphasis)

Were you running at high SPL so that the max affect could affect things? I wouldn't think so... anyhow! Not really a critique, I was just curious if I was missing anything, looking forward the rest of the comparison
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post #67 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Check out Southwest into Cleveland ... Jack lives close to the airport, and I am sure you could catch a ride with him ...

yeah...I but I heard about Jack's driving.

Someone is trying to steal your thunder :
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...r-faceoff-2007

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post #68 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Curtis ... Check out Southwest into Cleveland ... Jack lives close to the airport, and I am sure you could catch a ride with him ...

Well I was gonna say "you bet," until you went and said ''..

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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

yeah...I but I heard about Jack's driving.

HEY! I've become quite proficient at driving while sleeping. At my age, you don't have much choice.

Wish you could make it, Curtis.

Jack
 

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post #69 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 01:00 PM
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We could make it a party; Jack, Curtis and me. We could rent a limo and arrive in style. Plus, we would have a large enough vehicle to transport all the door prizes we win back to Cleveland!!
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post #70 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 01:14 PM
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hmmm.......I think I will look into it this evening.

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post #71 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Curtis, As you are a highly unpaid moderator on the Ascend forum, please, feel free to put up a thread about the GTG - I know there are quite a few Ascend owners that are not too far from here.
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post #72 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 02:14 PM
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It is your gig, go ahead and post it in the watercooler section.

The forum is usually pretty calm....I just delete the spam/porn posts. There was a doozy on there this morning!

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post #73 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I am running them blind, but it is pretty clear which speak is which ... the B&W's are much more forward, with less apparent bass, than the Sierras.

IMO, the $900 Ascends are definitely in the same league as the $2230 dollar (street price) B&W's

thanks for your effort craigsub.

I'm a little confused here, are we testing for better bass (freq. range) handling, or just overall best sound-reproduction? You mention the B&W's as more "forward", does this imply better or worse than the Ascend's?

Help me.......thanks
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post #74 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

thanks for your effort craigsub.

I'm a little confused here, are we testing for better bass (freq. range) handling, or just overall best sound-reproduction? You mention the B&W's as more "forward", does this imply better or worse than the Ascend's?

Help me.......thanks

We are definitely NOT testing for better bass handling as a method of showing any inherent superiority in that department - I only took the measurements and posted them to show that each was quite capable of delivering close to full range bass at normal listening levels.

I typically listen to music at 70-80 dB in SPL, with occasional higher peaks.

That is louder than most people think, too.

The B&W's are more forward than the Ascends or Swans. Whether that is good or bad depends on the listener.

I prefer the Ascends and Swans overall - and so have those who have heard all 3 pairs here.

However - that does not mean the B&W's are not going to be preferred by others ... TonyGeno says it well in his sig "Trust the only opinion that matters: yours". (Apologies to Tony if I butchered this ... )

When we are done, there will be a summary of all the high end bookshelf speakers - including what they do when matched with a sub.

Hopefully, the summary will help people to narrow down speaker choices when shopping.
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post #75 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 03:51 PM
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thanks, that gives me more insight.
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post #76 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I typically listen to music at 70-80 dB in SPL, with occasional higher peaks.

Craig, this is interesting. With my setup, I try and replicate what I hear in a live, classical, orchestral concert where peaks at my seats can hit 100db plus. I sure wouldn't want to listen to headbanger music at a constant 100db, but with my music, if I can't hit close to 100db on peaks, I totally miss the soft portions which will be drowned out by the room's ambient noise.

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post #77 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Tony ... If you were to watch a good SPL meter while listening, you would find that there are peaks of 20-30 dB higher than the average ... or, in my case, about 100 dB. I am typically about 5-6 dB lower in SPL than live. Yes, I have measured it (gets out geek-certified pocket protector).

Ambient noise should be in the 40-45 dB range for most rooms.... which will be inaudible when playing music.

I know some will already know this ... but some won't ... above about 100 Hz, for each 10 dB increase in SPL, it will sound appx. twice as loud to our ears.

It takes, however, 10 times the "wattage" to deliver 10 dB higher SPL (assuming there is no compression in the speakers)...

With most decent speakers, the 70-80 dB will require less than 1 watt from the receiver ... typically 0.1 watts in most normal sized rooms.

The 100 dB level will require 10 to 100 watts to achieve ...

And the 100 dB level sounds to us about 4 times louder than 80 dB, and 8 times louder than 70 dB.
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post #78 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 04:22 PM
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Craig:

It obviously depends on the type of music you're listening to. Most pop recordings have very limited dynamic range. A good classical recording can have dynamic range of 60db or more, hence the need to hit 100db on the peaks. But it seems like we're talking about the same thing.

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post #79 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Tony .. We are talking about the same thing, yes.

Some fun experiments I have done with people here are having them guess SPL when, say, playing pink noise @ 70 dB ... the average guess is 90 dB.

The other is what frequency is coming from a subwoofer ... on average, the listener has guessed that the 32 Hz signal is 20 Hz.

Of course, this is done blind.

Here is a link to a comparison chart of SPL levels from Wikipedia. It shows 100 dB as being a jackhammer @ 1 meter... The chart is about 2/3rds the way down the page.

link
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post #80 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 04:44 PM
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What is the SPL of a Top Fuel dragster measured from the front row of bleachers, straight across from the christmas tree starting light?
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post #81 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

What is the SPL of a Top Fuel dragster measured from the front row of bleachers, straight across from the christmas tree starting light?

Does anyone really care?

Tony

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post #82 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

Does anyone really care?

yeah, you do a$$-hole......
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post #83 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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WCD ... It would not be a surprise to find the SPL levels of the car to hit 120 dB at the listening position you described.

Please, take down the quasi-profane response to Tony. He tends to post stuff like that sometimes, but don't take it personally ... he is an equal opportunity curmudgeon.
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post #84 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
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yeah, you do a$$-hole......

Ah, no I don't.

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post #85 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

WCD ... It would not be a surprise to find the SPL levels of the car to hit 120 dB at the listening position you described.

Craig, I'm not sure if WCD was just trying to be a jerk-off or whether he's able to be one without trying. I just didn't understand what his post had to do with the discussion, since we were discussing music SPL. Perhaps I missed something?

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post #86 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Tony .. The link I posted had a chart showing SPL levels of Jackhammers, Jets ... etc ... I think WCD was referring to that, and as an educated guess, he attends such races and was wondering to what level his ears are being assaulted ...

You two need to hug and make up.

Aren't both of you glad you get to be 3000 miles apart for this ?
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post #87 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 06:38 PM
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Then why not just say, "I do", when I asked the question, rather than turn to insults?

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post #88 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Tony, That is why I asked him to remove it ... you are a loveable curmudgeon ... Boston style. He thought you were urinating in his Wheaties, and over-reacted.

Did you see I got the Swan Towers in ?

That was a lame attempt at a segue' ...
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post #89 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 06:50 PM
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Which model?

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post #90 of 365 Old 08-21-2007, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The 6.2's ... They are similar to the Rocket 850 Sigs in a lot of ways - we only have about 3 hours on them, so this is early stuff, but they are looking like pretty good speakers for an all in one system - home theater and music.
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