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post #211 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 03:08 PM
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Travel is not an option at this time, but I'd be happy to slip the $20 between the cheeks of a dancer. Or, you can do it for me. To further her education you understand. The work's already been done. Danny won't get it. He won't contact the individuals directly. I've commented on his experimental design. I don't think the comments were unreasonable as they address several issues.

associated errors of measurement
the effects after a temperature cool-down
the effects after recovery of elastomeric properties
variations inherent within a single lot of drivers
variations inherent in different lots

Do you consider the data and experimental design robust? Are you comfortable with making claims about what happens after say 5 minutes based upon a measurements after 10 seconds and 20 hours?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #212 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Travel is not an option at this time, but I'd be happy to slip the $20 between the cheeks of a dancer. Or, you can do it for me. To further her education you understand.

Now we are making some progress-education is a wonderful thing and to contribute directly like that-well priceless
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post #213 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

Chu Gai,
How about this. How about you do your own controlled measurements? All
it takes is two speakers - one new, one "broken" in. You are obviously interested
in this subject. Why not do your own investigation instead of spouting what
you read elsewhere? Better yet, buy three. Measure them fresh out of the box.
See how they differ. Run one in - see if it changes. Just do it!

How about this, you buy three sets of speakers, measure them, and send them to Chu. He will break one in and not the others and send them back. You have someone monitor the tests and you listen to all three and you identify the one that is broken in. After your test, you can return the two and keep the one that is broken in which will, of course, sound better.
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post #214 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 03:28 PM
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If we're all listening to speakers and someone enters the room, leaving the door slightly ajar, how much of an effect does that have with say, the FR at the listening position? Is it more or less than the difference between a speaker run in for say 1/2 hour vs one run in for 40 hours after both have rested for 24 hours?

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post #215 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

If we're all listening to speakers and someone enters the room, leaving the door slightly ajar, how much of an effect does that have with say, the FR at the listening position? Is it more or less than the difference between a speaker run in for say 1/2 hour vs one run in for 40 hours after both have rested for 24 hours?

I don't know. Do you?
fwiw I always leave the doors near the corner of my room open whenever I can. Open doors near corners make great bass "traps".

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post #216 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

How about this, you buy three sets of speakers, measure them, and send them to Chu. He will break one in and not the others and send them back. You have someone monitor the tests and you listen to all three and you identify the one that is broken in. After your test, you can return the two and keep the one that is broken in which will, of course, sound better.

Good idea, but how about YOU do the buying and sending and measuring.
I'm done.

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #217 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 04:19 PM
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Yes, more. Open windows are nice too.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #218 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Richie View Post

I have already responded to that. There is NOTHING there but fiction.
.

Yes, of course. What was I thinking of? You seem to be the only one who knows anything, we should just quietly disappear, right? Sorry to have bothered you.
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post #219 of 234 Old 10-31-2007, 05:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Yes, of course. What was I thinking of? You seem to be the only one who knows anything, we should just quietly disappear, right? Sorry to have bothered you.

Gotta wonder why the page that was linked is no longer on the server??? If it is the article I think it was that I read earlier today, the article did in fact concede that speakers DO break-in...
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post #220 of 234 Old 11-01-2007, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Gotta wonder why the page that was linked is no longer on the server??? If it is the article I think it was that I read earlier today, the article did in fact concede that speakers DO break-in...

If you are referring to the AH article, it is up and running, I just checked.
The graphs 7 & 8 tells the FR story. You can barely see the difference, let alone be it audible. Similar to wire measured differences. Some have a .5 dB difference at 20kHz. Can you hear 20kHz? Not me. Even if I could, the JND up there is rather large.
The JND in the bass band is rather large too.
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post #221 of 234 Old 11-01-2007, 04:11 PM
 
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post #222 of 234 Old 11-01-2007, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

http://www.audioholics.com/education...act-or-fiction

Not up now...

Interesting gremlins at work.
Your link is not working. I went back to my post and it works like a charm, both times today:

http://www.audioholics.com/education...act-or-fiction

something got cut off? Who knows?
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post #223 of 234 Old 11-01-2007, 04:42 PM
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You copied it wrong Splicer.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #224 of 234 Old 11-01-2007, 05:31 PM
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Quote:


The graphs 7 & 8 tells the FR story. You can barely see the difference, let alone be it audible. Similar to wire measured differences. Some have a .5 dB difference at 20kHz. Can you hear 20kHz? Not me. Even if I could, the JND up there is rather large.
The JND in the bass band is rather large too.

Differences that you hear from burn in are not related nor do they cause changes in amplitude.

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post #225 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 08:00 AM
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They are caused by what then?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #226 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Richie View Post

Differences that you hear from burn in are not related nor do they cause changes in amplitude.

Interesting. Perhaps you have submitted a paper to AES on this new find? That is one way to advance the audio science, not by posting to a web site.
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post #227 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 04:42 PM
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What do you guys expect? Do you think that it will get louder or what?

I can measure a speaker prior to burn in and after burn in and the frequency response will stay the same.

I can measure one set of speakers that has not been burned in and a set of speakers that have been burned in and they still measure the same.

However, they can sound very different. I would describe the difference after break in as smoother, more transparent, less boxy, more relaxed, resolution is better, and the space between notes is greater.

There is a ton of things going on that causes this but it will be useless at this point to even point them out, especially if you have trouble accepting the easy to measure mechanical changes.

Let's further document the mechanical parameter changes and then I'll host an A/B listening session that will get into audible changes.

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post #228 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Richie View Post


I can measure a speaker prior to burn in and after burn in and the frequency response will stay the same.

...the space between notes is greater.

seems like this would show up as a widening of the frequency resonse?

also, isn't a speakers sensitivity, in part, related to spider stiffness? and, as run-in occurs and the spider loosens up, shouldn't sensitivity increase (if only margninally)?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #229 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02
do you have any data supporting your opinion?

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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Try some light reading here:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e=UTF-8&rnum=1

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e=source&hl=en

Nousaine, Tom, 'Breaking Wind,' Car Stereo Review, Jan/Feb 1997, pg 90-94. (Break in myth)

Nousaine, Tom 'Test Report: Dynaudio MW 190, 12" Subwoofer,' Car Stereo Review, Oct 1997, pg 83-88. (More break in myth)

i haven't looked up the second two, but your first two links contain no data. the accounts in the first two links are anecdotes.

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post #230 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 05:43 PM
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You'll rarely find comprehensive data posted on newsgroups regardless of the topic. In fact, in research papers that are published, often you'll find data reduction but data is often provided from researchers when asked for especially in situations which might be unexpected. Nousaine can be contacted via his public email and he may be able to shed more light. Understand that Pierce, and others too, do not consider the fracturing of the epoxies/varnishes/phenolics to be part of break-in. The data that's intersting to examine is the value at say 5 minutes after a temperature cool-down then after 24 hours. Then run more data points at longer periods of driver excitation, measuring in the same fashion. Does this make sense?

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post #231 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 06:47 PM
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Chu-

I think you should emphasize your point by posting another pic of a really hot chic...seriously, you're going to get me in trouble at work. I was catching up on the threads while my CAD students were working on a project and a student happened to be working next to me when I perused this interesting, yet seemingly useless thread and he was like, "Holy Sh** Coleman...what're you looking at...porn?" Of course the whole class went overboard and I had to try to explain your motives for posting the "panties in a bunch" pic, which was really difficult to do without making you sound like a perv. At any rate, they all agreed that it was a worthwhile pic, though your credibility is a bit sketchy at this point.

J.

Marantz SR7010, Emo XPA-100 x 3, Sony Pearl, Samsung K8500, PS4, Pio DV-45a, Apple TV, Paradigm Studio v5 100/Studio CC690/ADP-590, SA-35, P80-R x 4 Atmos, Velodyne 12" sub x2.
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post #232 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02
do you have any data supporting your opinion?



i haven't looked up the second two, but your first two links contain no data. the accounts in the first two links are anecdotes.

I think Dick Pierce speaks from years if not decades of real data gathering rather than anecdotally
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post #233 of 234 Old 11-02-2007, 11:11 PM
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If anyone is looking for a test subject can I suggest these: http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...dio/index.html

My own subjective experience with a lot of the Dynaudio range is very similar to that particular reviewer's.
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post #234 of 234 Old 11-04-2007, 08:10 AM
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I am a perv Jason. Tell your students.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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