Official Axiom Owner's Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1424 Old 02-23-2009, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post

I don't get it. Are you saying to look at the facts and ignore your ears?

I don't think you can trust your ears unreservedly to tell you what speakers give the highest fidelity. Anymore than I trust the ears of those who say premium power cords give higher fidelity, or my own ears, for that matter, if they tell me stuff like that. Ears are subject to prejudices and expectations.

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post #452 of 1424 Old 02-23-2009, 09:29 AM
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Thanks for the link Bob, I do agree with your statement about the realwood veneers and if I was to be looking for a real wood veneer speaker, Axiom wouldn't necessarily be on my list, as I know there are better/smoother speakers, IMO, out there in the $2000 range, but what you fail to mention is that the base M80 is $1300 and include shipping out(even less with various discounts applied), the base Salk ST's are still $500 more(does that include shipping?) and that IS a different pricepoint, one I know I couldn't afford when I bought my M80s.

It sounds like you had fun and were able to come to the realization your room (and your bad ear) could be more the culprit with the overt brightness you are experiencing in your room. Something to also note, in the reviews it was stated the M80s to be boomier than the Salks, but also noted the M80s played lower, could this have added to a perception of boomy due to the lower frequency response? The M80s with a sub would most likely be crossed over at 60-80hz and this would, IMO, eliminate most, if not all boominess as you mentioned, as I have found my system to be boomy when run full range but not boomy when crossed over at 60hz.
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post #453 of 1424 Old 02-23-2009, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jakewash View Post

Thanks for the link Bob, I do agree with your statement about the realwood veneers and if I was to be looking for a real wood veneer speaker, Axiom wouldn't necessarily be on my list, as I know there are better/smoother speakers, IMO, out there in the $2000 range, but what you fail to mention is that the base M80 is $1300 and include shipping out(even less with various discounts applied), the base Salk ST's are still $500 more(does that include shipping?) and that IS a different pricepoint, one I know I couldn't afford when I bought my M80s.

It sounds like you had fun and were able to come to the realization your room (and your bad ear) could be more the culprit with the overt brightness you are experiencing in your room. Something to also note, in the reviews it was stated the M80s to be boomier than the Salks, but also noted the M80s played lower, could this have added to a perception of boomy due to the lower frequency response? The M80s with a sub would most likely be crossed over at 60-80hz and this would, IMO, eliminate most, if not all boominess as you mentioned, as I have found my system to be boomy when run full range but not boomy when crossed over at 60hz.


I did clearly state that the ST's were PLUS shipping. I don't feel it was necessary to mention that the base price of the Axioms were lower because this is an Axiom section of this forum and that is a given. I stated that yesterday's intent was originally an audition but I was also invited to bring my M80's. Someone else stated that it was an unfair comparison. I don't believe it was. Apples for apples they are at the same pricepoint.

I went for the Axioms because of the price. But that price is that low because of the no-frills production and not because it offers the same construction and finish. Apples to apples and the M80's don't cut it.

That is not to say that the M80 with it's no frills finish is not worth it. I never said it was a bad speaker. I've suggested Axiom several times to people looking for speakers. Just suggesting that people try to hear it first.

OR everyone can just listen to GregLee and buy speakers based on charts.
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post #454 of 1424 Old 02-23-2009, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post

OR everyone can just listen to GregLee and buy speakers based on charts.




Bob have you tried simply running in stereo mode, not direct or pure mode, to make treble adjustments possible? Did it have enough adjustment to make the M80s more to your liking? I have recently played with the treble adjustment on my 3808 to see how much it drops the upper end and it appears to have enough range to tame the M80s substantially.
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post #455 of 1424 Old 02-23-2009, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jakewash View Post

It sounds like you had fun and were able to come to the realization your room (and your bad ear) could be more the culprit with the overt brightness you are experiencing in your room. Something to also note, in the reviews it was stated the M80s to be boomier than the Salks, but also noted the M80s played lower, could this have added to a perception of boomy due to the lower frequency response? The M80s with a sub would most likely be crossed over at 60-80hz and this would, IMO, eliminate most, if not all boominess as you mentioned, as I have found my system to be boomy when run full range but not boomy when crossed over at 60hz.


Hey Jay,

Seems as though you read into people's posts a bit too much. No where did I come to the realization that my room and bad ear could be the culprit with the overt brightness. I stated as well as others there that the M80's were most definitely brighter (and some used the word harsher) than the ST's. Even with any room treatments the others just plain didn't like the M80's. One said it was very fatiguing to him and wouldn'r be able to listen to them for any period of time. More was said but I didn't want to be accused of Axiom bashing. (which I am NOT doing) My right ear factors in for MY listening in that any brightness that I hear is picked up more quickly with a sensitive ear.

Yes it is possible that I perceived boominess with the lower frequency response of the M80's.

Yes it is also possible that the M80's are taming down a bit with time even though the Axiom experts claim that no break-in is required. So it may also be true that some room treatments and some more break-in time can make these M80's tolerable for me and maybe even real good. That was never the point of me posting here. Simply put I was looking into other speakers while I am in my trial period and I was offered an invitation and accepted. I never said anywhere that I did not need or refuse to accept yours or anyone's suggestion for room treatments. My room is my livingroom. I just can't traps all over this room.
All I know is that went I spent my hard-earned money 26 years ago for a pair of ADS 810's (I think they were) they were very smooth sounding in my livingroom and never had the thought of hanging stuff all over my walls.
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post #456 of 1424 Old 02-23-2009, 02:42 PM
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I took my thought about the brightness from your statement in your review that the M80s seemed less bright in their rooms.
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post #457 of 1424 Old 02-24-2009, 01:19 PM
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Was on the phone with Axiom today. Found it odd that they suggested to set the M80's to "large" and to NOT USE the Audessey on my Denon 2309.
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post #458 of 1424 Old 02-24-2009, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post

Was on the phone with Axiom today. Found it odd that they suggested to set the M80's to "large" and to NOT USE the Audessey on my Denon 2309.

They are not believers in any EQ. I've disagreed with Alan the Axiom Boards about this a few times. He keeps saying don't use it, but I have yet to get a good reason why not.

If you are using the M80's without a sub, than you have to set them to large or you have no bass.

IF PROPERLY DONE, Audyssey is absolutely amazing. It will not make a truly terrible room sound great, but it will help. Check the Audyssey thread for a terrific guide.
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post #459 of 1424 Old 02-24-2009, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jakewash View Post

Congrats Smitty, stop in at Axiom's own forum post some pics of your system and your thoughts on the Qs8s when you get them.

I second that as I am waiting to demo the M60's then place my order for the 60's, VP150 & 4- QS8's. I'd be interested to hear if you feel the QS8's are far superior to direct firing side surrounds. That is what I have heard a lot, so was not too worried about the QS8's. I will order FO's too, so my order may be only a week or so behind yours.
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post #460 of 1424 Old 02-25-2009, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post

Was on the phone with Axiom today. Found it odd that they suggested to set the M80's to "large" and to NOT USE the Audessey on my Denon 2309.

Like dewd said, if you are not using a sub, which it sounds like you are not, then you should be running the M80s as large for the full range signal, no crossover in use in the Denon.

If you have the speakers set to small with no subwoofer selected, (I believe the menu would not even allow this, as it should default the mains to large as soon as subwoofer=no) then I would suspect there is something wrong with the Denon.

For you to be able to set the mains to small you have to the subwoofer=YES and a then a crossover point can be set for each speaker, the usual is 80hz but many with M80s run this at 60 or even 40 depending on your room and tastes.

Axiom believes the flat response of the M80s, or any good flat FR speaker, would be inhibitied by using an auto EQ program. Some of the early EQ programs did not work that well and made good speakers sound very bad, some of this was due to user error and bad mics and/or algorithms. To avoid any user or any type of error, I suspect Axiom simply recommends to not use one.

It still comes down to how YOU like the sound with the auto EQ enabled vs. off. I have found with mine I like most songs with it on, but have found a number of songs that sound better, to me, with it off.
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post #461 of 1424 Old 02-26-2009, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jakewash View Post

Like dewd said, if you are not using a sub, which it sounds like you are not, then you should be running the M80s as large for the full range signal, no crossover in use in the Denon.

If you have the speakers set to small with no subwoofer selected, (I believe the menu would not even allow this, as it should default the mains to large as soon as subwoofer=no) then I would suspect there is something wrong with the Denon.

For you to be able to set the mains to small you have to the subwoofer=YES and a then a crossover point can be set for each speaker, the usual is 80hz but many with M80s run this at 60 or even 40 depending on your room and tastes.

Axiom believes the flat response of the M80s, or any good flat FR speaker, would be inhibitied by using an auto EQ program. Some of the early EQ programs did not work that well and made good speakers sound very bad, some of this was due to user error and bad mics and/or algorithms. To avoid any user or any type of error, I suspect Axiom simply recommends to not use one.

It still comes down to how YOU like the sound with the auto EQ enabled vs. off. I have found with mine I like most songs with it on, but have found a number of songs that sound better, to me, with it off.


I missed yesterday's posts here. I never bothered to attempt the Audessey while only using the M80's. I hooked up the EP-500 and the center channel. Surrounds are still in the box. I tried the Audessey since everything has been hooked up. I ran Audessey again after hanging up with Axiom. Audessey set my mains to large at 40 hz and set the center to small at 110hz. I adjusted the center down to 80 but have no idea if that throws the whole calibration off. This has been sounding pretty good for HT even though I had to turn the sub up all the way to be effective.
Tried some music this afternoon and it is still a bit bright.

I have taken pictures of my room and am looking to display them somehow. Can someone tell me how to display them somewhere?
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post #462 of 1424 Old 02-26-2009, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post

I missed yesterday's posts here. I never bothered to attempt the Audessey while only using the M80's. I hooked up the EP-500 and the center channel. Surrounds are still in the box. I tried the Audessey since everything has been hooked up. I ran Audessey again after hanging up with Axiom. Audessey set my mains to large at 40 hz and set the center to small at 110hz. I adjusted the center down to 80 but have no idea if that throws the whole calibration off. This has been sounding pretty good for HT even though I had to turn the sub up all the way to be effective.
Tried some music this afternoon and it is still a bit bright.

I have taken pictures of my room and am looking to display them somehow. Can someone tell me how to display them somewhere?

Hi Bob,

Denon sets the speaker to large if Audyssey the -3db rolloff at 40hz or lower. It is still a best practice to set them to small - change the crossover to 60 or 80. If you like them large, that is your preference, but make sure that double bass is on or you won't get any sound from the sub.

It is not a good idea to adjust the crossover down. Audyssey measures the speaker in YOUR room, and it found that 110 Hz is correct. If you lower it you have no corrections below 100 Hz, and more importantly, you have a hole in your sound (between 80 and 100 Hz).

For the attachments, I believe you have to first upload them using the "manage attachments" button in the "Additional Options" area. Then you insert it into the post using the paperclip.
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post #463 of 1424 Old 02-26-2009, 11:46 AM
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post #464 of 1424 Old 02-26-2009, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewd View Post

Hi Bob,

Denon sets the speaker to large if Audyssey the -3db rolloff at 40hz or lower. It is still a best practice to set them to small - change the crossover to 60 or 80. If you like them large, that is your preference, but make sure that double bass is on or you won't get any sound from the sub.

It is not a good idea to adjust the crossover down. Audyssey measures the speaker in YOUR room, and it found that 110 Hz is correct. If you lower it you have no corrections below 100 Hz, and more importantly, you have a hole in your sound (between 80 and 100 Hz).

For the attachments, I believe you have to first upload them using the "manage attachments" button in the "Additional Options" area. Then you insert it into the post using the paperclip.

I guess I'm just ................ I don't understand any of this. make sure that double bass is on? Where is there a setting for this? Axiom also told me to set the mains for large. Most seem to set them for small at 80.

How will I have a hole between 80 and 100? If I adjust the crossover down to 80 shouldn't that fill in any hole?
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post #465 of 1424 Old 02-26-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post

I guess I'm just ................ I don't understand any of this. make sure that double bass is on? Where is there a setting for this? Axiom also told me to set the mains for large. Most seem to set them for small at 80.

How will I have a hole between 80 and 100? If I adjust the crossover down to 80 shouldn't that fill in any hole?

Hi Bob,

Not sure what the Denon calls it (Onkyo and HK call it double bass). What it means is 'send the subwoofer frequency to both the mains and sub'. If you have the mains set to large and 'double bass' is not on, then all the lower frequencies are sent to the mains only. It may be called LFE+Main.

The hole occurs because the center is not producing the same sound pressure (loudness) below 110 Hz. This was determined during the measurements taken by Audyssey. By lowering the crossover, you are asking the center to play everything above 80 Hz. BTW - the measurement may be due to the fact that the center is lower than the mains, and no doubt lower than the mic when you measured. I would not be concerned and would leave it at 110 Hz.

Now this does not mean that your center won't go lower, it just means it won't go lower in its current location.

Just looking at the pictures I can guess that the right speaker sounds different than the left??? The left one is tight against the wall and no doubt has more bass. The right one is open and may sound 'thinner'.

PS - Bob, just so you know, I'm not trying to talk you into keeping the Axioms... These are issues you will have with any speaker in your current configuration and is just good to know. I fully understand you do not like the sound of the M80's and nothing we do here will change that dramatically.
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post #466 of 1424 Old 02-26-2009, 06:10 PM
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Thanks dewd for the info.!

I understand what you are saying about the center setting.
The left speaker is tighter against the wall than the left but it's really not as tight as you might think. Any sound is angled off the wall and then maybe absorbed a bit by the curtain hanging behind the tv.

I am set LFE+Main

I watched a few movies since the sub and center was set up and it's seems to be doing decent for HT. Listened to a couple of songs today and I still have a problem with music on these mains.
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post #467 of 1424 Old 02-26-2009, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post

Thanks dewd for the info.!

I understand what you are saying about the center setting.
The left speaker is tighter against the wall than the left but it's really not as tight as you might think. Any sound is angled off the wall and then maybe absorbed a bit by the curtain hanging behind the tv.

I am set LFE+Main

I watched a few movies since the sub and center was set up and it's seems to be doing decent for HT. Listened to a couple of songs today and I still have a problem with music on these mains.

Good deal. Just for fun, try cranking the treble down a few notches. Not sure where to find that in the Denon, you will have to RTM

Also, try different curves - Audyssey and Flat. Again, RTM for the place to change them.
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post #468 of 1424 Old 02-27-2009, 02:13 AM
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Bob, I noticed you said you had to turn the sub all the way up to be effective. What did Audyssey set it's level to in the speaker setup? You may just need to bump the sub level up on the Denon to -1 or 0 and then drop the volume control on the sub itself. It could be when you did the setup routine Audyysey cancelled out a higher volume setting on the sub. It could also be you like a little more bass than Audyssey wants to allow. This is where an SPL meter comes in, so you can adjust the sub level to a few db higher than the rest of the system as many do, inspite of Audyssey's settings.
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post #469 of 1424 Old 02-27-2009, 04:04 AM
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When JC of Axiom helped with with the settings we bumped the dB level of the sub up 2.5dB. After I hung up I didn't have the center channel. After going through some things I went back and did the Audessey calibration but I don't remember the sub being all that loud with the other settings but I'm not sure.
This all makes me wonder if I should have just gotten a pair of speakers and a 2 channel stereo receiver.
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post #470 of 1424 Old 02-27-2009, 08:24 AM
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There is definitely a learning curve to the new receivers etc.

You bumped the sub level up 2.5 or you set it to +2.5?

I am also wondering if there might be a problem with the sub. I have heard the 500 and at full or even near full volume it should be rattling the walls pretty good on LFE scenes during movies, when things are setup correctly. This is where the SPL meter comes in handy, so you can double check the levels against the Audyssey settings. Radio Shack's SPL meter is the defacto standard for HT use.

Some good LFE scenes: Darla tapping the aquarium in Finding Nemo, Just about any explosion ever done on film in the last few years, Iron Man has lots of LFE, The Hulk as well. Any of the Star Wars movies - explosions, large spaceships with visual pans.
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post #471 of 1424 Old 02-27-2009, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakewash View Post

There is definitely a learning curve to the new receivers etc.

You bumped the sub level up 2.5 or you set it to +2.5?

I am also wondering if there might be a problem with the sub. I have heard the 500 and at full or even near full volume it should be rattling the walls pretty good on LFE scenes during movies, when things are setup correctly. This is where the SPL meter comes in handy, so you can double check the levels against the Audyssey settings. Radio Shack's SPL meter is the defacto standard for HT use.

Some good LFE scenes: Darla tapping the aquarium in Finding Nemo, Just about any explosion ever done on film in the last few years, Iron Man has lots of LFE, The Hulk as well. Any of the Star Wars movies - explosions, large spaceships with visual pans.

Darla should make you jump from you seat if your not expecting it.

I'll second the SPL meter recommendation, but if the mic is properly placed (tripod, away from the wall, ear level) it should get your levels near perfect (even better than the SPL meter can do).
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post #472 of 1424 Old 02-27-2009, 03:37 PM
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i agree about the Darla scene, when i finally got my EP350 setup right i thought the ceiling was going to come down with the darla scene, intense!!! i think the couch may have moved a bit actually.
Now this was with the EP350 with the settings at only about half strength so if you have to get your EP500 to max to get some bass...definitely there might be something wrong with it..OR did you try reversing the frequency (or whatever its called) on it? I've also got my M60's set to small with crossover at 80. i found that with the M60's as large + the subs that the bass was getting a little boomy, much smoother now with the sub handling most of the bass. all i need to make things perfect is some bass traps and more carpeting. have found that as I've added more sound absorption stuff in the room that the sound from the mains comes off as less bright. just throw down a couple of bean bags and some shag carpeting and things will be perfect!
oh! don't wonder should you have gotten just 2 speakers...once you get those surrounds up...its very nice. a little spooky actually. i can't count how many times i've looked out my window to see why there were firetruck/police cars/monsters/aliens/birds makin noise outside

It's all about the sound!
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post #473 of 1424 Old 02-28-2009, 04:41 AM
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I have my sub on a SubDude. Maybe that's why the sub seems tamed. I will remove that today and see what happens. I will go back through my settings to see how I have it set. Guess I should keep a log to keep track of what works and what doesn't.
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post #474 of 1424 Old 02-28-2009, 07:34 AM
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post #475 of 1424 Old 02-28-2009, 07:46 AM
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Quote:


Its purpose is to prevent sound from transmitting through your subwoofer to surrounding surfaces.

says the above on the website...seems half the fun of the subwoofer is the vibration that occurs. personally i'd get rid of that mat. Half the fun of a sub is wondering if that Crystal glassware your partner got from their great great grandmother at your wedding will shatter in the depth charge scene in Das Boot (another great sub tester..sub movie the tests your sub... amusing)
oh and that thing to reverse was the phase, the switch beside the auto on/off on the back of the subwoofer, give it a shot.

It's all about the sound!
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post #476 of 1424 Old 02-28-2009, 12:30 PM
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Tried the phase switch and haven't heard any difference/
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post #477 of 1424 Old 02-28-2009, 01:47 PM
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how much improvement if any would the QS4 OR QS8 be over a pair of Mirage Ominasat for my surround. would it be worth it and which would you sugest between the two. thanks
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post #478 of 1424 Old 02-28-2009, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakewash View Post

Bob, I noticed you said you had to turn the sub all the way up to be effective. What did Audyssey set it's level to in the speaker setup? You may just need to bump the sub level up on the Denon to -1 or 0 and then drop the volume control on the sub itself. It could be when you did the setup routine Audyysey cancelled out a higher volume setting on the sub. It could also be you like a little more bass than Audyssey wants to allow. This is where an SPL meter comes in, so you can adjust the sub level to a few db higher than the rest of the system as many do, inspite of Audyssey's settings.

Bob, Jay,

The procedure to calibrate the sub is on the second page of the "Audyssey Setup- One Step at a Time" guide. It is very clear and works well. A link to it can be found at the bottom of the first post of the "Official" Audyssey thread. (here)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

Even though the instructions are in the thread, do as the OP says and scroll to the bottom of his post and click his link to the MS Word document that is MUCH clearer because it has all the indents, etc.

Basically, you run Audyssey from position #1. Pos. #1 NEEDS TO BE the center of the sound field the same distance from fronts as the primary listening position. Meaning if the main lit. pos. is off center, do not start there! Start in the center. The order of 2-6 is not important, but the distances the mic. is moved needs to be equal. They call for 2' distances between mic positions (just follow the diagram).

After going thru once, you select 'Calculate' (takes 2 mins or so), then select 'Save or Store', then go back to check what level Audyssey set your sub at. If it set it at -4 to -12, the gain on your sub needs to be turned down a bit.
A good starting place is the middle of your subs gain/vol. range. Definitely keep detailed notes on you initial and each changed setting. It's a pain to go thru once, then realize you forgot what the last setting was OR forgot to actually adjust the sub. (been there ;o). This takes a few runs thru the first cycle, but I can assure you, going thru the whole process and realizing you had made a setting change before starting, well sucks. Not to mention the WAF. After running Audyssey several times, having to ask the wife to take the dog for a walk each time... well, lest just say she was not 'enthused about the process. Now I do NOT mention running Audyssey if I want to try a change. I go into Audyssey stealth mode. When she happens to take the dog to the park, I turn off the fridge, the HVAC, take clock out of the room and get right to it. It must be dead quite or you will get wiggy readings. Like the distances it shows will be strangely off.

Of course testing for sub 'placement' is a totally separate issue. I'd think it might be good to get Audyssey to set the subs level between -3 to +3 , which is pretty close (some of us will obsess to +/- 1dB ;o). Then try different placements. If you think in theory, the new place would make it louder to Audyssey, you canturn the sub gain down slighty before running Audyssey. Write It Down. )

So definitely print the word version of the one step at a time guide and read thru the whole thing until it makes sense. I started logging my settings and outcomes on the back sides of the set up printout . I date (and time) each pass describing what the set up consists of and what changes this pass entails. The settings and their results are always right with the guide. I keep it handy to refer back to.
Good luck,
Dave
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post #479 of 1424 Old 02-28-2009, 07:05 PM
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Also, it does not mess up Audyssey if you prefer to raise or lower the dB levels Audyssey set, to your taste. You can also change fronts (or others) to large without messing up Audssey. I wouldn't other than try out how the front might sound at large. But as Jay said, If you change the fronts to large, you need to change the setting to LFE+Main. That way the Denon properly sends the full range to to the front as well as the <80 dB (or whatever) to the sub. Your ears tell you if it sounds good to you or not.
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post #480 of 1424 Old 03-18-2009, 07:03 PM
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I'd just use the Audessy for the initial setup then tweek it to your liking from there.
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