Official Axiom Owner's Thread - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:28 AM
 
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It is all in the presentation of the negative info. Like everyone's mom has said at least once "it is not what you said but how you said it". Mom's are notoriously wise about such things.

Basically, he is like a Chevy owner logging intp all the Ford forums around to bash Fords. It is right t .ignore such a person whose only purpose is to spread hate.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:31 AM
 
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I run Paradigms for my front three speakers. I am not a fanboy by any means.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:33 AM
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I have read some negative comments from axiomites reguarding Gene which is too bad as he is very informative.
I see post #1333 and seen the pics and I know which one I would prefer inside my speaker. smile.gif
The world of speakers is so competitive right now, which in the end is good for the consumer.
As far as being in business for 30 years really doesn't apply as bose has been around longer and I'm not a bose hater,
but they do not represent good value.

I know people get into the debate of ID vs B&M which I won't get into as great speakers can be had which ever avenue you pick.
Kudos to ID companies like aperion, ascend, and svs among others who seem to strive to build better products and continue to change,
and not to become stagnant.
When axiom introduced the vp160 it would have been a good time to dump the vp150 off the product list as 3 center channels is enough when you only have 1 line of speakers.

I would like to see axiom make a secondary line of speaker with better drivers, crossovers, better braced and so on.
It would show that they are committed to improve rather than just stick with one budget line, which really hasn't changed that much.

All I can say now is TGIF. smile.gif
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:39 AM
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Well it seems like Johand is now looking at some KEF iQ30 nice speakers...I've not heard the iQ...but audtioned the q500/700's sometime ago...if Johand wants Axioms just order some and compare them....others have and liked the Axioms..others not so much...nothing wrong with that. At some point we all have to stop fanning the flames...here and not only GT....smile.gif

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Old 03-15-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

Axiom has been rabidly accused by the fanatics of using standard components in their xovers.

When AH was up at the factory on one of their many visits, Axiom ran a listening test with a standard OEM xover & one that was made of expensive, exotic parts. As expected, there was no audible difference even to the expert AH 'ears' that participated - none!!

This is Axiom's pragmatic, common sense philosophy that many of us like, but many don't - fine. Those who don't, then go buy something else that pleases you - there's lots of fine stuff out there. Then get on with your life & quit the incessant whining.

The issue isn't that they use cheap components in a way. Its that they use cheap components in there speakers that cost double the price of what some competitiors do that use high quality parts.

Look at the vast differences TAM at the Ascend XOVER and the Axiom XOVER , the Ascend is $2.00 more including shipping than the Axiom but uses 10x better quality components. If Axiom wants to use cheap quality components than they should price their stuff accordingly.

I can tell you my $798.00 Towers uses 3 times as much bracing as the Axiom M80, uses air cores and wire wound resistors (which at Parts-Express cost 4x as much as those little white resistors Axiom uses), heavy bolted together cast frame drivers as well as license technology, at half the price of the Axiom tower which doesn't offer any of that.

I'll continue to recommend real engineered speakers from companys that improve their product non-stop and try and squeeze every last penny of performance from its price point. If you happy with subpar products at expensive prices go right ahead and continue enjoying your speakers.

Trust me I get PMs from people that feel the same way I do. So I'm not the minority. Axiom would be welcomed with open arms I believe if they truely went out and made better products at more competitive prices. Its not me running customers away its the cheap speakers at expensive prices using outdated early 90s tech and designs.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1400 View Post

When axiom introduced the vp160 it would have been a good time to dump the vp150 off the product list as 3 center channels is enough when you only have 1 line of speakers.

I would like to see axiom make a secondary line of speaker with better drivers, crossovers, better braced and so on.
It would show that they are committed to improve rather than just stick with one budget line, which really hasn't changed that much.

Why? At the current prices the competitors offer all that more at the same price Axiom charges. But it doesn't matter because Axiom/Ian has stated you don't need quality drivers, xovers, cabinet bracing ect....
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:27 PM
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Haven't we heard enough of this back and forth between you guys? Really maybe take it to pm's.
GT I get what you're saying and I think it's safe to say you don't like Axiom but is there really a need to keep going on about it?
If anyone was to do a search all of this will come up so there's really no reason to beat a dead horse at this point.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:49 PM
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Feel sorry for me guys - my VP100 is sitting in the front hall!! I'll get to it later during the weekend & let the audio torture begin, ha!

John - Last year a customer & his wife went to the factory to audition CC speakers. After an hour or so of extensive blind testing (on & way off axis) with him & his wife taking separate notes (they were serious about this), they finally came to an agreement & chose the one that they like the best - the VP150. The other one was the VP160 - supposedly the far better design theoretically. Because listening is completely subjective as we all know, all of the fine science & theory sometimes goes out the window when human ears & brains become involved.

It's not for me, but that's why the VP150 still sells...

TAM
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:12 PM
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If the customer is happy with the vp150 than that's all that matters, If you are happy with your axioms, again, that's all that matters.
If you find your blood boiling again then turn some music on as it really does help. smile.gif

Now I must do my weekly chore of dusting all my speakers and vacuum.


Its Friday and as Phil from duck dynasty would say "happy happy happy". smile.gif
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1400 View Post

If the customer is happy with the vp150 than that's all that matters, If you are happy with your axioms, again, that's all that matters.
If you find your blood boiling again then turn some music on as it really does help. smile.gif

Now I must do my weekly chore of dusting all my speakers and vacuum.


Its Friday and as Phil from duck dynasty would say "happy happy happy". smile.gif

Luv Phil....biggrin.gif

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Old 03-15-2013, 01:21 PM
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Well said ex-lab driver
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:44 PM
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John:

I was at the doctor this morning & all my numbers are excellent for a change. Most importantly, he confirmed that my blood isn't boiling, ha!!

I just moved my VP100 box from the front hall to my HT room. Already my cats like it as they are busily clawing at the carton with abandon - much better than my couch! Certain types of cardboard really seems to attract them...

TAM
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by John1400 View Post

If you find your blood boiling again then turn some music on as it really does help. smile.gif

Wisdom that gtp should listen to. smile.gif
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:36 AM
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I finally got my VP100 carton away from my cats & unpacked it First impressions are that it's much heavier than I expected, fit & finish (B Stock) is excellent & the Brushed Silver with Charcoal Grill matches beautifully with my stand. In my darkened room, it disappears visually.

I set it up on the lowest shelf (3" off the floor) in its slot in my space-challenged stand in the elevated (pointed up slightly) configuration so that it is aimed nicely at the listeners' head.

In order to give it a bit of a workout before calibrating, my wife & I watched the latest 'The Three Musketeers' Blu Ray - the one with the airships. Great, dynamic (but not overdone) soundtrack with lots of dialogue, explosions & wonderful orchestral works throughout. Even without calibration, the VP100 performed seamlessly & admirably. Dialogue was natural & clean. Most importantly, there was no 'What did he say?' from my wife who was seated 30 degrees off center.

After the movie, I ran successfully the 6-position Audyssey calibration, I then listened to various pink noise & multi-channel sweeps at -10 Db (our normal listening level) from my old Avia HT Test DVD. Timbre matching was good, although slightly different from the M22s during single speaker tests, probably because the L & Rs (not toed in) are somewhat off axis from my sweet spot. Interestingly, the pink noise signal that rotates around the room encompassing all speakers in sequence revealed virtually no mismatches between the L, C & R. From the slight differences that I heard with the single speaker signals, it was surprisingly seamless when panning across the front. After learning so much here at AVS wrt nasties that can arise from horizontal CCs, I slid my butt back & forth along my main couch that encompasses up to 10 degrees off axis. No change in pink noise sound there; however, as expected, there was some difference evident out at the 30 degree off center, but nothing overly significant nor detrimental that I could tell.

So, this initial trial run with the movie revealed that there were no chesty male voices, boxiness nor any phasey type sounds - so my setup seems to be quite reasonable & hopefully is now nicely tweaked after calibration.

After the calibration, I took the opportunity to run a low freq test sweep at -10 Db to see what my two modest 10" Velodyne subs were doing. They started dropping off around 27Hz & finally went silent at 23Hz; however, interestingly several things in the room were still happily reacting & buzzing down to 20 Hz where the Avia test signal terminated.

I'm more than satisfied and that's what it's all about....

TAM
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:08 PM
 
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Glad you like it!
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:12 PM
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I don't know, cybr - I'm getting drained just being here over the past couple of months.

I think that I'll put on another movie & see if Audyssey made any audible changes; however, I won't worry myself too much as I'm reasonably sure that it will be just fine...

TAM
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Why? At the current prices the competitors offer all that more at the same price Axiom charges. But it doesn't matter because Axiom/Ian has stated you don't need quality drivers, xovers, cabinet bracing ect....

You are tirelessly motivated to vent your feelings. I'll give you that. It's like a full time job for you, no? I own Axiom's and am quite happy about it. I'm also of the opinion that 99.999% of the people will not be able to tell the difference whether it's receivers or speakers (of similar spec, that is). So I'm happy with lower price that Axiom charges. I have Vienna Acoustics as well, and I don't know that it's any better than Axiom. I have Tannoy speakers and I don't know that it's any different.

So you can go on venting, raving, and spewing venom to your heart's content. It only costs a few bytes of bandwidth and a few sectors on AVS' servers. Best of luck to you with whatever speakers you have today. God forbid they should piss you off at some point. You're going to run out speaker companies to purchase from.

Thanks,
Hansang
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:00 PM
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I played U-571 on my calibrated system this afternoon to give all of the speakers a good workout. As everyone knows, this is a brutal, dynamic soundtrack that was most impressive even at -10 DB. I thought that my surround QS4s were gonna come off the walls during the depth charge sequences. I liked it all but my cats didn't, ha!

The VP100 worked well, although some dialogue was overpowered occasionally by the carnage going on inside the sub - almost too much happening in the mix at times.

Overall, very enjoyable....

TAM
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:37 PM
 
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I liked it all but my cats didn't, ha!

My cat is not happy with the rear surrounds - he gets all skitzy when sounds come from behind him. smile.gif
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:57 AM
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I hope Axiom didn't find an issue and is just telling me "all is ok" to protect their brand name.

Of course there is a real possibility that they would do this. What is relevant to your situation that a third party entered into it, who has no motivation(s) to deceive you on any level. If you dig up enough on Axion (like this thread; http://www.avsforum.com/t/1337283/any-thoughts-on-axiom-audio-speakers ) you realize that there are very real issues with their products.

With that said, some people don't care that there are engineering and design issues. It's like the saying goes, sometimes ignorance is bliss. You were likely perfectly happy with your setup before Jeff used his pro equipment to illustrate the issues, but I honestly think you are better off now.
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:28 PM
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cybr - Yup, my cats wonder about the surrounds as well. They hear lots of sound back there but there is no movement. They can't quite figure it all out, ha!

bo - thanks for bringing up a subject that had been satisfactorily put to rest some time ago. We too are most pleased that he has solved his problem & is now happy with his results - good stuff.

Oh yeah, the factory customer service is unscrupulous & is probably out to deceive their loyal customers to protect themselves, yup. From my travels around the net & what I've seen, it appears that even detractors almost universally praise their customer service. After all, they've been at it for over 30 years so they've got to be doing something right.

Now let's go back to being ignorant but oh so blissful. In fact, I've never been so blissful, especially with a new VP100 in my collection that I'm enjoying immensely - 3 movies already run through it, all without incident...

TAM
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:38 PM
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Oh yeah, the factory customer service is unscrupulous & is probably out to deceive their loyal customers to protect themselves, yup.
TAM
You believe it is in a companies best interest to (potentially) openly admit to serious limitations and/or design problems with a product (if there is indeed one)? If you do, I hope you don't work within public relations or customer service in your job. I may be mistaken, but you make it sound like Axiom is in business for altruistic purposes.

30 years doesn't mean anything to me. A company can go either way over the course of 30 years, and their length of time in business doesn't necessarily have anything to do with them producing a quality product (Bose is another really easy and obvious example of that in this industry) - and maybe more importantly - a product that can stand up to a critical analysis from someone who doesn't work for the company in question.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:27 PM
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I hope you don't work within public relations or customer service in your job.

I don't know. He seems to do a pretty damn good job at smacking down any opposing opinion that any one makes about his company. Axiom/Bryston should pay him cause he's really earning his money. I wonder why he isn't online defending all the other companies too? Oh wait Axiom guys use to smack down alot of other brands and just loved it when they could make another brand look bad in Axioms biased listening tests. Where was TAM......silence.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:29 PM
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Are you basing your comments on actual experience with their customer service, or just hearsay as is often the case here?

I have used them several times so I know of what I speak. My experiences have been nothing but outstanding - they just took care of me promptly & in a courteous, friendly manner. One example, last year I placed an order for a pair of M3s (horrors for many here, I know) that included a week-long special that included free speaker mounts ($80 value) - if you checked a box on the Checkout Screen. I completely missed that & later after the special had expired, I learned about the deal in their forums Now several days later - I called Customer Service & asked about the free mounts to see if I could still get them. No problem - even though my original order had already been shipped, they sent me another box absolutely free. How many companies would do that? Not many in my experience - when a special is over it's over & you missed it.

Of course, Axiom is in business to make a buck - like any other reputable enterprise. They haven't been successful in their business for 30+ years by ripping off, overselling, upselling, or using any other nasty retail tactics that are so common today. This has been attested to in many articles on the web. Warranty work or technical problems are normally taken care of promptly & often beyond what would be expected - lots of testimonials to that fact. For a very small company with few employees, to have a tech rep on call until 8 PM Eastern every weekday is exceptional IMHO. There are many bigger firms that don't do this.

Their designs are their designs - often outside the box but certainly not hidden - they've been around & scrutinized for years. As with any products, many of us like the results, others do not. If not, go & spend your money elsewhere - there are lots of choices. It's so simple!

From my experience, their ethics are not in question at all. They have 3 decades of mostly happy customers just like any other good firm.

Bringing up Bose here says a lot...

TAM
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:41 PM
 
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I like my M3s - and my M2s and even my M0s, though I have an itch to upgrade them simply because they look small smile.gif Realistically, though, they produce plenty of sound acting as front heights.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:53 PM
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GTP, nice to see you are back. What took you so long?

I don't comment on other company's products because I don't own them & don't have a clue about them, so I properly stay out of it. Perhaps more of that should happen around here; however, on numerous occasions I have recommended that a poster look elsewhere for an alternative product if it is more appropriate, especially if purchasing outside of a home country with all the ramifications that can arise. Johan (above) from Belgium is the most recent. Happily, he finally did go a different route that was probably much easier for him in the end.

Furthermore, I will not & cannot pass judgment on a product by only looking at pictures. I just don't have the background nor those magical powers or skills that others seem to have.

TAM
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:07 PM
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cybr - I have both M3s on Axiom stands (no sub) & M2s on Axiom stands with EP 400 sub. The only problem with stands is that you're actually paying for furniture.

I really like the form factor of sats on nice stands with (or without) a decent sub in the middle. They have to fit into your own decor though.

I used to like big towers when I was a young pup, but sat/sub combo is what I've come to prefer aesthetically now. From the first time that I saw them in a glossy hifi magazine in the 80's when most towers were fat boxes, they just looked classy to me.

Performance wise, they rival the towers in my price range & with a competent sub, will dig lower & sound fuller than all of the various brands of towers that I've auditioned.

TAM
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:13 PM
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Furthermore, I will not & cannot pass judgment on a product by only looking at pictures. I just don't have the background nor those magical powers or skills that others seem to have.

Its really not that hard to understand. Its the Bryston CC using dual tweeters on a horizontal plane side by side or spread out. Its not as bad as the VP180 with the tweeters spaced far apart but cancellation will happen even to the slightlist degree from dead center.

The problem is when you move to one side or the other you are now slightly further from one tweeter and closer to the other cause delay and cancellation issues.

The VP150 measurement I have is a great example. 20 degrees off center from to the left or right causes a -10 to -15db drop between 1,000ish to 2500hrz. Thats called a "suckout" you just lost all that information in that freq range because of the dual tweeters.

Stack vertically in the middle and use truncated frames and you solve alot of issues, unless you jumping up and down.

"Perhaps I misunderstood what comb filtering is. What do you call it when you walk across the room, playing a single tone, and you can hear the volume go up and down. Also measurable with a sound meter. If you stay in one place, the tone is constant, but moving just an inch one way or the other causes the volume to change. Walking at a slow steady pace is like a ripple effect" Catbrat

Thats a great example^^^^^^^
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:35 PM
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GT did you have some kind of slip and fall accident and banged your head, maybe mugged with iron pipe. Something has to explain your paradigm shift from axioms to an alternate brand. OR maybe you just like parroting Gene D .
I am referring to post number #209 which was made approximately 1.5 yrs ago
Your like chicken little ,

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1337283/any-thoughts-on-axiom-audio-speakers/180
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Its really not that hard to understand. Its the Bryston CC using dual tweeters on a horizontal plane side by side or spread out. Its not as bad as the VP180 with the tweeters spaced far apart but cancellation will happen even to the slightlist degree from dead center.

The problem is when you move to one side or the other you are now slightly further from one tweeter and closer to the other cause delay and cancellation issues.

The VP150 measurement I have is a great example. 20 degrees off center from to the left or right causes a -10 to -15db drop between 1,000ish to 2500hrz. Thats called a "suckout" you just lost all that information in that freq range because of the dual tweeters.

Stack vertically in the middle and use truncated frames and you solve alot of issues, unless you jumping up and down.

"Perhaps I misunderstood what comb filtering is. What do you call it when you walk across the room, playing a single tone, and you can hear the volume go up and down. Also measurable with a sound meter. If you stay in one place, the tone is constant, but moving just an inch one way or the other causes the volume to change. Walking at a slow steady pace is like a ripple effect" Catbrat

Thats a great example^^^^^^^


Only reason this is not a great example is because he was not referring to a dual tweeter Axiom speaker. Most like this is caused by his room and / or the strange manner in which he has his speakers located.





CatBrat
Concerning comb filtering, I have walked around the room extensively with a Radio Shack audio meter. I have not noticed any comb filtering with the bookshelf speakers, but with the on-wall M22's, it is rampant. I get a different volume reading while playing a steady tone just moving the meter an inch at a time. The bookshelfs and towers are the companies main speakers, and the on-wall versions are for looks only to satisfy customer demand. Any evaluation should only be done with the bookshelf versions, IMO. The on-walls are a bit brighter than the bookshelf designs
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Axiom , Speaker Systems , Polk Audio , Polk Audio Rti6 High Performance Bookshelf Speakers Pair Black
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