My Journey to find the "perfect" speaker... - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

LOL

LTD02, you've heard these unreleased speakers and have run comparos on them, of course....."blows the other stuff away at any price".

Epiphany's. They are amazing speakers that I've really heard nothing else like. Same designer with better internals and drivers so somewhat yes.

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post #362 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 04:29 PM
 
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Brandon, I don't know if the Salks will make it on time or not, The check arrived yesterday, and Jim said he was hoping to get them out today - if he does, they should be here.

We also have the Def Techs, 850/760, Acculines and 6.2's here.

Do you guys want to listen with no subwoofer ? With a BIG subwoofer ? With a wonderful musical subwoofer like the Dana 600 ?
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post #363 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Good music has emotional impact, and some speakers are better than others at conveying the emotion in the music.

To date, a pair of properly set up Klipsch Heritage are some of the best I have heard at doing this.

Unfortunately, NHT's, while measuring well, are some of the worst, in terms of recreating emotional impact.

Try listening to a live jazz ensemble, then listening to Klipschhorns, and most listeners will "get it".

Interesting! I have read a few places (dont remember the sources) that in general, more sensitive speakers (>90dB/1m/1w) have the ability to sound more like the live performance (with less power) than a relatively insensitive speaker (80db range) with much more power. Since you have had the opportunity to listen to a much larger sample size of speakers than I have, would you say that this is the trend that you have found in your listening?
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post #364 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Interesting! I have read a few places (dont remember the sources) that in general, more sensitive speakers (>90dB/1m/1w) have the ability to sound more like the live performance (with less power) than a relatively insensitive speaker (80db range) with much more power.

That was Klipsch's marketing mantra back in the 70's, although they said you needed 100db speakers for the full effect.

Tony

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post #365 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

That was Klipsch's marketing mantra back in the 70's, although they said you needed 100db speakers for the full effect.

IMO, Marketing claims usually have 0%-~40% truth to them (with the balance fluff). Do you think that this "claim" is somewhat meaningful in terms of general trends? (I know there are always exceptions).
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post #366 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

IMO, Marketing claims usually have 0%-~40% truth to them (with the balance fluff). Do you think that this "claim" is somewhat meaningful in terms of general trends? (I know there are always exceptions).

No, I do not.

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post #367 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

To date, a pair of properly set up Klipsch Heritage are some of the best I have heard at doing this.

I find the opposite. Emotional impact is about the only thing they can try to do since they don't reproduce the sound well at all. It's a magic trick at best, a sonic lie more honestly.
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Unfortunately, NHT's, while measuring well, are some of the worst, in terms of recreating emotional impact.

Wouldn't that, by definition, vary dramatically by listener? To me, NHT's do almost exactly what I want them to do, which is let the music provide the emotional impact, rather than attempting to exaggerate it or create it where it doesn't exist. I find that non musicians and people without "soul" need a speaker that provides fake emotional impact, where as people who truly enjoy music don't need or even want this from a speaker at all.

John
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post #368 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

John, no worries pal. I have noticed some people don't share the same opinions as you concerning the NHT line of speakers but I won't let that cloud my judgement. Nor will I let your eternal praise for them brainwash me. I will let my own ears decide and will report back the truth without bias.

Hey, whatever makes you happy makes me happy for you! Whatever you do, do it for you. Huh. That's sounds like a song lyric or something.......

John
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post #369 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

That was Klipsch's marketing mantra back in the 70's, although they said you needed 100db speakers for the full effect.

It's kind of like "whatever we do well is critical for musical enjoyment. Whatever we do not do well is meaningless".

John
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post #370 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

It's kind of like "whatever we do well is critical for musical enjoyment. Whatever we do not do well is meaningless".

but isn't there something to the notion that high efficiency speakers will reproduce highly dynamic music better? i seem to recall something about that, but i can't remember any of the specifics.

it seemed like before we got into waf, all the speaker guys were heading in the same direction--giant, efficient, large driver, systems.

then again, it is possible that it was because of limited amp power. but all things equal, would an 87dB efficient speaker w/16 watts sound better/worse than a 99dB efficient speaker w/1 watt? i suppose the more efficient speaker just benefits from enormous headroom relative to the less efficient speaker, but i don't know.

thoughts?

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post #371 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I find that non musicians and people without "soul" need a speaker that provides fake emotional impact, where as people who truly enjoy music don't need or even want this from a speaker at all.


Being a musician dont make you any more knowledeable about music than anybody else, my brother can play the guitar quite well and he dont know a thing about good sound from home speakers. And for 'soul' i think you have it backwards regarding needing fake emotional impact, to me bottom line is some speakers have a soul, others do not. Heck if you just want to just hear music any speaker will do. I thought the reason for buying high end speakers is they do sound better than your typical best buy speaker, vocals and instruments sound real and in the room, all sorts of notes are played back with more resolution, clarity, realism. The good speakers seem to have "class" and sound like it. At that point you are not just buying a speaker, for me it's like buying many musical instruments in one.
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post #372 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I find the opposite. Emotional impact is about the only thing they can try to do since they don't reproduce the sound well at all. It's a magic trick at best, a sonic lie more honestly.

Wouldn't that, by definition, vary dramatically by listener? To me, NHT's do almost exactly what I want them to do, which is let the music provide the emotional impact, rather than attempting to exaggerate it or create it where it doesn't exist. I find that non musicians and people without "soul" need a speaker that provides fake emotional impact, where as people who truly enjoy music don't need or even want this from a speaker at all.

Right ... You make some of the most incredible statements about people.

At what point did you become an expert in which people have "soul" ?

I have listened to NHT's ... and find them to be decent performers up to about 90 dB, at which point they become very 2 dimensional.

Perhaps it is the soul which I am lacking is the problem. That must be it.
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post #373 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

but isn't there something to the notion that high efficiency speakers will reproduce highly dynamic music better? i seem to recall something about that, but i can't remember any of the specifics.

That, again, is the marketing. If a driver accurately reproduces the dynamic scale, that is, 10W is 10dB louder than 1W which is 10dB louder than .1W, with equally low distortion, then no.

However, there is something to the notion that a speaker that is 1 or 2dB louder than another in a demo seems more dynamic and detailed, often even if it is not as good.

John
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post #374 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

The good speakers seem to have "class" and sound like it. At that point you are not just buying a speaker, for me it's like buying many musical instruments in one.

Good speakers render the music as the amplifier tells them to do. If a speaker acts as a musical instrument, then it is less accurate, less faithful. That makes some people enjoy music more, but it makes me enjoy the sound less.

John
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post #375 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Perhaps it is the soul which I am lacking is the problem. That must be it.

If the vessel fits.........

It's amazing just how quickly you can make me regret taking you off ignore.

John
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post #376 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jonomega View Post

Interesting! I have read a few places (dont remember the sources) that in general, more sensitive speakers (>90dB/1m/1w) have the ability to sound more like the live performance (with less power) than a relatively insensitive speaker (80db range) with much more power. Since you have had the opportunity to listen to a much larger sample size of speakers than I have, would you say that this is the trend that you have found in your listening?

This is a tough question, because we know what general statements usually lead to ... especially here.

Something best left to conversation over a beer sometime... but if the reaction to my Klipsch Cornwalls and A7-900 sub, when driven by a 15 year old NAD 25 WPC receiver are any indication...
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post #377 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

If the vessel fits.........

It's amazing just how quickly you can make me regret taking you off ignore.

Awwww John, you label others as lacking soul, then play the injured party. I feel for you ...
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post #378 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 06:59 PM
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Not injured, just bored with your constant sniping and desire to be the big guy in the little pond. Personally, I couldn't care less about you, play the big fish all you want. That is why I ignore you, but you have an odd desire to go around attacking anyone that you perceive to threaten your credibility as the home grown expert. "Don't listen to John, listen to me! I'm the important one!" I think maybe Brandon is, not you Craig. That's why you bore me and why I'm putting you right back on ignore. Snipe away as you wish. I'm not paying attention.

John
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post #379 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 07:04 PM
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hey craig, what speakers do you run when your not cycling through the speakers that you are reviewing? did you mention legacy?

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post #380 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Good speakers render the music as the amplifier tells them to do. If a speaker acts as a musical instrument, then it is less accurate, less faithful. That makes some people enjoy music more, but it makes me enjoy the sound less.

I'm gonna guess you think the sound is colored if it sounds what i describe. Everyone will have a different perception of what a great speaker will sound like. I just dont get how you dont think a good speaker should not sound like a instument as that is what the goal is to reproduce. If one speaker sounds like a actual piano is in the room and blows you away by the sound like your there, how can you not enjoy that and how is that not faithful to the source? If there was a musician who's opinion would really hold weight with me to help me choose speakers it would be a piano player.
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post #381 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 07:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

hey craig, what speakers do you run when your not cycling through the speakers that you are reviewing? did you mention legacy?

I had a pair of Legacy Classics ... but they are long gone. Right now, We are playing with a lot of the mid priced speakers, each with its own set of strengths and weaknesses.

I really cannot single out one that would be a "go to" speaker ...
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post #382 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 07:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Not injured, just bored with your constant sniping and desire to be the big guy in the little pond. Personally, I couldn't care less about you, play the big fish all you want. That is why I ignore you, but you have an odd desire to go around attacking anyone that you perceive to threaten your credibility as the home grown expert. "Don't listen to John, listen to me! I'm the important one!" I think maybe Brandon is, not you Craig. That's why you bore me and why I'm putting you right back on ignore. Snipe away as you wish. I'm not paying attention.

This is amazing. One wonders how someone comes up with this ...
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post #383 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

This is amazing. One wonders how someone comes up with this ...

difference between someone pursuing the truth/having fun with a hobby and someone trying to find existential purpose through spouting his views/ingratiating his ego.

the former doesn't mind having his ideas shot down; actually he encourages it because the quicker that his unfounded ideas get shot down, the sooner he will be rid of them. he is the learner.

the latter perceives any questioning of his ideas as merely questioning of his character--personal attacks--because in his mind there is no distinction. his only raison d'etre is to spout his views as this gives him purpose. for him, if his views are shown to be false, then his purpose devolves into irrelevancy.

you can tell by the tone of people's comments which they are quite easily. the former will ask questions, for clarifications, for new perspectives and will be very interested in _what others know_. the latter will argue with any minutia that disagree with their views, spout platitudes, and never ask a question, for a clarification or for a new perspective as they are only interested _in what they know_.


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post #384 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 07:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

difference between someone pursuing the truth/having fun with a hobby and someone trying to find existential purpose through spouting his views/engratiating his ego.

the former doesn't mind having his ideas shot down; actually he encourages it because the quicker that his unfounded ideas get shot down, the sooner he will be rid of them. he is the learner.

the latter perceives any questioning of his ideas as merely questioning of his character--personal attacks--because in his mind there is no distinction. his only raison d'tre is to spout his views as this gives him purpose. for him, if his views are shown to be false, then his purpose devolves into irrelevancy.

you can tell by the tone of people's comments which they are quite easily. the former will ask questions, for clarifications, for new perspectives and will be very interested in _what others know_. the latter will argue with any minutia that disagree with their views, spout platitudes, and never ask a question, for a clarification or for a new perspective as they are only interested _in what they know_.


This is pretty good stuff. As soon as I find my Thesaurus, I will figure out all of it ...
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post #385 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

I'm gonna guess you think the sound is colored if it sounds what i describe. Everyone will have a different perception of what a great speaker will sound like. I just dont get how you dont think a good speaker should not sound like a instument as that is what the goal is to reproduce. If one speaker sounds like a actual piano is in the room and blows you away by the sound like your there, how can you not enjoy that and how is that not faithful to the source? If there was a musician who's opinion would really hold weight with me to help me choose speakers it would be a piano player.

Here's a trick that helps a lot to determine colored sound from accurate sound. Go into the next room after putting on a well done acoustic recording. Have a person switch between two different speakers. One of the speakers will likely sound more like a live instrument and the other will likely sound more like a reproduction. That is the difference between a truly great speaker and just one that sounds great.

John
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post #386 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

difference between someone pursuing the truth/having fun with a hobby and someone trying to find existential purpose through spouting his views/ingratiating his ego.

Nice try, but the difference is more like someone who feels like they know the truth because they think they tripped over it yesterday and those of us who are in the business for a long time and found that truth is something that reveals itself slowly with time and experience.

The former gets aggravated with the latter because they think they can fast track the truth and often pronounce it as though they've arrived at it already. The latter just gets annoyed because the former insists misinforming everyone around them with their newly arrived at "truth".

John
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post #387 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Nice try, but the difference is more like someone who feels like they know the truth because they think they tripped over it yesterday and those of us who are in the business for a long time and found that truth is something that reveals itself slowly with time and experience.

The former gets aggravated with the latter because they think they can fast track the truth and often pronounce it as though they've arrived at it already. The latter just gets annoyed because the former insists misinforming everyone around them with their newly arrived at "truth".

okay patient, hop on the couch.

the point of these boards is not _you_. that was the whole point, so lost on you. there was no mention of your name, yet you were the first to carp in your characteristicly defensive and dismissive fashion.

when you have something to add, that's great, and you surely have things to contribute based on your years of experience. but what has happened is that you have taken the early positive feedback that you received years ago and the little bit of joy that it provided for you and have turned it into an empty pursuit of that joy by contributing everything that you think that you know. where once you were answering questions and engaging in healthy, spirited dialog, now you have become a monotonous drone of worthless monolog.

you have become ahab chasing the whale of self worth down the most pitiful path--an internet message board about music and movies. instead of becoming the wellspring of wisdom that you believe yourself to be, you have become a black hole--a psychic vampire, sucking time, energy, and life out of everyone on these boards.

well, times up. i have found it all quite amusing, so no charge.

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post #388 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

well, times up. i have found it all quite amusing, so no charge.

Feel free to be as wrong as you like as loud as you like. That is what I call the "Alpha Newbie Syndrome". No charge.

John
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post #389 of 6914 Old 11-06-2007, 10:43 PM
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Have you looked into any of the JBL setups out there? I'm sure I'll get flamed for that, but I have been very happy with my JBL equipment, and so have many other people.

My "Route 66 Basement Theater" Build Thread
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post #390 of 6914 Old 11-07-2007, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Good music has emotional impact, and some speakers are better than others at conveying the emotion in the music.

To date, a pair of properly set up Klipsch Heritage are some of the best I have heard at doing this.

Unfortunately, NHT's, while measuring well, are some of the worst, in terms of recreating emotional impact.

Try listening to a live jazz ensemble, then listening to Klipschhorns, and most listeners will "get it".

Okay, I know I probably shouldn't fuel this fire, but I just don't get this concept of a speaker conveying soul / emotional impact. Without a doubt, music is a soulful and emotional art form (that is what I love about it), but how exactly does a speaker designer / engineer go about creating a speaker with emotional impact? If the speaker designer does his best to achieve flat frequency response, low distortion, broad dispersion, good transient response, etc. and he listens to his design and says to himself, "you know this measures well and sounds good, but it just doesn't convey the soul of the music." How does he quantify that deficiency so that he can modify the design to give the speaker more soul? Surely the speakers that do convey emotional content well have to have some measurable quality that allows them to do this. Otherwise, their design is just luck of the draw and that speaker designer / company is going to have a one-hit wonder on their hands.

I have certainly heard systems that make a recording sound more realistic; more like the performer is in the room, or the like the listener has been transported to the venue. However, it seems to me that the emotional impact is purely a result of the performance, not the speakers or the rest of the sound system.

Frankly, if a song moves me, it is going to do that on my car stereo, my table top radio or my home system. It is just going to sound a hell of a lot more like the real thing on my home system.

Maybe this is just a matter of semantics and we are talking about the same thing. Is what I call realism, the same as what you call emotional impact?
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