My Journey to find the "perfect" speaker... - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

B-man.....I thought the search was for a two-channel setup? Or is the use of the Ultra Theater stuff just to hold you over until you get dedicated two-channel gear rather than multi-channel?

I am not an expert by any means on two-channel electronics, but I have been quite impressed with systems that used Bel Canto equipment.

I would love to do a separate two-channel system and then a 7.1 HT system in a different room, but I just can't put my wife through that. So I need to build a system that will accel at both. And as I stated earlier (I think in the first post), if I need to start it as a two-channel system, I will. Finding a system to portray music well is a lot harder to find than a system that excels at 7.1 movies IMO. I may just have to save a little, get the fronts, then save some more and get the rest. I have no problem doing it that way, but I do need to limit myself to one system. Of course, I'll need something to tide me over until I do actually find that "perfect" speaker for my ears...HAHA, I just found my loophole! LOL...better not let my wife hear this.

The Ultra Theater stuff will tide me over for a while, but as technology changes so will my pre-amp. As far as the amp, that's going to be a harder decision to make, but once I finally chose at least I can keep it for quite a long time without worrying about upgrading. The Emotiva will perform admirably until I find my more "permanent" amp (hopefully with gobs of power ). Oh, and thanks for the brand tips, Curits!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

HA...there is simpatico going on here!

Emotiva will give you what you want, B. HOWEVER....one needs to ensure that there is power in abundance to adequately present the transients and drive the load of the speakers you end up selecting. But you knew that....didn't you?!

I too feel the Emotiva gear will perform as you said, which is why I am trying out it's little brother.

And yes sir, I did know that. I am an anal retentive A/V freak...shame on me.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 02:52 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Mud and Nuance, thanks for the clarification on starting as two-channel and migrating to HT.

Wanting to read about the "journey", I forgot what I read in the first post.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #183 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 02:55 PM
Senior Member
 
drhack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago Subs
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nuance - check out the thread by Zissou in the Amps/Processors section for recos on pre-pros that do music and movies (in that order). Based on his recommendations I picked up a used Cary Cinema and enjoying it despite the operational quirks - once the music starts all its quirks are forgiven!

BTW invitation still stands for Aerial audition (with Cary Cinema6, Citation Amp(450w/ch!) and SVS Ported+Epik Sealed Sub).

President Muffley: Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!!
drhack is offline  
post #184 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhack View Post

Nuance - check out the thread by Zissou in the Amps/Processors section for recos on pre-pros that do music and movies (in that order). Based on his recommendations I picked up a used Cary Cinema and enjoying it despite the operational quirks - once the music starts all its quirks are forgiven!

BTW invitation still stands for Aerial audition (with Cary Cinema6, Citation Amp(450w/ch!) and SVS Ported+Epik Sealed Sub).

I will do just that; thanks bud!

I would love to audition at your home - too cool! We'll have to try to set something up for November. Maybe I can hit your place and Joey's on the same weekend.

WHOA...I just realized: 450 watts per channel? WEEE!

Curtis, no problemo pal. There is a lot of information and long posts in this thread; it's easy to forget what was said only a few pages back, I should know.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #185 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 03:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhack View Post

Nuance - check out the thread by Zissou in the Amps/Processors section for recos on pre-pros that do music and movies (in that order). Based on his recommendations I picked up a used Cary Cinema and enjoying it despite the operational quirks - once the music starts all its quirks are forgiven!

BTW invitation still stands for Aerial audition (with Cary Cinema6, Citation Amp(450w/ch!) and SVS Ported+Epik Sealed Sub).

Nuance - Not knocking the recommendations in that thread, but none of the prepros listed there have enough multichannel inputs nor do they have the HDMI audio processing capability needed to accomodate the current HD players, SACD, and DVD-A players that most of us have in our rack, or at least plan to.
hifisponge is offline  
post #186 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 04:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jostenmeat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nuance,

speakers first, man, speakers first. Anyways, I just posted the following just moments ago at AVS, but I am under the present opinion that your choice of source will affect your SQ more than choice of pre-pro or amp. Make sure to budget that in.

Though Joey has already covered the issue, I myself had been eyeing tubed pre-pro's with HT bypass. Extremely convenient, and BAT and ARC are not to be sneezed at! Could be $$$$ though. Now I am just trying to wait a while before getting a dedicated room where I will have a much larger selection (least a half year from now).

Fun thread and keep it up.

 

 

jostenmeat is offline  
post #187 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 06:33 PM
Senior Member
 
drhack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago Subs
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Nuance - Not knocking the recommendations in that thread, but none of the prepros listed there have enough multichannel inputs nor do they have the HDMI audio processing capability needed to accomodate the current HD players, SACD, and DVD-A players that most of us have in our rack, or at least plan to.

hifi - agree about HDMI. But for multi-ch Cary Cinema 6 has 2 sets of 7.1ch inputs - I have a HDDVD and a Denon Universal player (for SACD & DVD-A) connected to them.

President Muffley: Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!!
drhack is offline  
post #188 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 07:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhack View Post

hifi - agree about HDMI. But for multi-ch Cary Cinema 6 has 2 sets of 7.1ch inputs - I have a HDDVD and a Denon Universal player (for SACD & DVD-A) connected to them.


Thanks for the correction. I also understand that Cary is coming out with some sort of external box for HDMI processing. Seems like the Cary line could be the one brand in that thread that is a viable option for someone that doesn't want to have to limit the number of surround players in their system.

Oh, actually I hear that Parasound is also going to come out with a new prepro that accepts HDMI in the middle of next year.
hifisponge is offline  
post #189 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Nuance - Not knocking the recommendations in that thread, but none of the prepros listed there have enough multichannel inputs nor do they have the HDMI audio processing capability needed to accomodate the current HD players, SACD, and DVD-A players that most of us have in our rack, or at least plan to.

Hmm, I did notice that most of them wouldn't work double duty for music and HT. It's cool, I like researching this stuff...but it would take WAY longer without the help from you guys. You guys rock!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

Nuance,

speakers first, man, speakers first. Anyways, I just posted the following just moments ago at AVS, but I am under the present opinion that your choice of source will affect your SQ more than choice of pre-pro or amp. Make sure to budget that in.

Though Joey has already covered the issue, I myself had been eyeing tubed pre-pro's with HT bypass. Extremely convenient, and BAT and ARC are not to be sneezed at! Could be $$$$ though. Now I am just trying to wait a while before getting a dedicated room where I will have a much larger selection (least a half year from now).

Fun thread and keep it up.

Right on bud. The speakers come first, especially since I have the Emotiva UL's to tide me over.

I hear ya about waiting for the dedicated room. I would like it to happen at our current home, but it may have to wait until the next one. We'll see...

I don't know of any Cary dealers around here, but Ultra Fidelis carries Parasound. Hopefully tomorrow will be a very productive day.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #190 of 6914 Old 10-19-2007, 08:40 PM
Senior Member
 
drhack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago Subs
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Hmm, I did notice that most of them wouldn't work double duty for music and HT. It's cool, I like researching this stuff...but it would take WAY longer without the help from you guys. You guys rock!

Not sure why you say they dont work for both - the basic premise of Zissou's thread is both music and movies, with music being a higher priority. All the ones he recommended do both well.

President Muffley: Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!!
drhack is offline  
post #191 of 6914 Old 10-20-2007, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
But do all the pre/pros include HDMI switching and/or HDMI 1.3? I suppose this is a conversation for another time since I should be concentrating on speakers...

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #192 of 6914 Old 10-20-2007, 08:17 AM
Senior Member
 
drhack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago Subs
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

But do all the pre/pros include HDMI switching and/or HDMI 1.3? I suppose this is a conversation for another time since I should be concentrating on speakers...

No - most of them dont. But you dont need HDMI (HDMI 1.3 even less) for a good HT performance - simply use analog out from the HDDVD/Blu-ray players.

Anyway - back to speakers!

President Muffley: Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!!
drhack is offline  
post #193 of 6914 Old 10-20-2007, 08:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,729
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhack View Post

No - most of them dont. But you dont need HDMI (HDMI 1.3 even less) for a good HT performance - simply use analog out from the HDDVD/Blu-ray players.

There are less players with analog outs though, so you have less choices.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #194 of 6914 Old 10-20-2007, 08:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jostenmeat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

There are less players with analog outs though, so you have less choices.

That's true, and BM might be tricky, but I know little about it. Also, I am not sure you can matrix the rears from a 5.1 source via mca's (anyone know?). That's why I think a pre/pro with HT bypass is so interesting. Get the best of both worlds. Just add affordable receiver with pre-amp outputs, maybe an Onkyo 705 for $600. I would think that would be a pretty cool setup, but wouldn't know the issues involved in such a setup, since I haven't done anything like that. Even without the HT bypass, one could just disconnent/reconnect the wires between music and HT. (I personally think HT isn't very exigent).

I am at fault too here(!), but back to speakers!

 

 

jostenmeat is offline  
post #195 of 6914 Old 10-20-2007, 04:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by drhack View Post

No - most of them dont. But you dont need HDMI (HDMI 1.3 even less) for a good HT performance - simply use analog out from the HDDVD/Blu-ray players.

Anyway - back to speakers!

But then you are essentially using the prepro as a volume control and the sound quality you hear will be based soley on the DA converters and analog output stages of the HD player, which are considerabely cheaper than those found in something like the Proceed AVP that is recommended in the other thread. Seems like it defeats the point, no?
hifisponge is offline  
post #196 of 6914 Old 10-22-2007, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Thanks for the pre/pro and amp discussions; it's certainly helpful.

Audition # 1

So I got to spend some time with a couple of speakers this weekend (finally).

Monitor Audio RS6


The first ones I sat down with were the Monitor Audio RS8 and 6's. I figured I would start cheap and work my way up. This way if I find something I fall in love with, it won't break the bank and I can stop there.

Without getting into a ridiculously long post (again), I preferred the RS6 to the RS8. If I had to pin down a reason, it would due to the difference in bass. The RS8 has an extra bass driver, but it muddies up the mids and gives the tower more of a bloated sound. The lower extension might be great with movies, but it didn't excel with music. As for the RS6, the bass was also a tad boomy, but no where near the RS8. There was more detail in the mids than there was with the RS8's, allowing me to hear some subtle nuances that I couldn't with the RS8's. I also liked the extended highs and their ability to pick out all of the details without becoming harsh or fatiguing. The main negative I had with the MA's was that their soundstage wasn't as tall and wide as I would have liked. When I stood up the soundstage immediately collapsed thus throwing off the imaging and the my ability to pinpoint specific instruments.

The MA RS6's are a fine fine speaker for under $1000, and at this point, I felt they may very well be the best speaker I've heard for the price...well, until my next audition.

Vandersteen 1C


After spending some time with the MA's, I moved over to the Vandersteen 1C's. While I have had plenty of listening time with these speakers, it had been a while and I felt it wold be a fair comparison to the RS6's considering the price was almost the same for the pair. The first thing I noticed was a more smooth, yet equally extended high frequnecy. The details were all still there, perhaps even more prominent, but there was added air and sparkle to the treble. In a word, it was saweeeet. I new I could listen to these speakers for hours (naturally) without worrying about ear fatigue or ringing. The midrange, in comparison to that of the RS6's, sounded less compressed and/or recessed. It was just "there" floating in space - very cool. As for the bass, it now made me change my opinion of the bass of the RS6's, which I now felt was a little more bloated than I initially thought. The 1C's bass was definitely leaner and tighter, but more musical. I assume that the Q tuning of the woofers on the 1C's was lower in order to produce a more musical tightness.

I found two cons with the Vandies: Having owned the 2CE's for just over a year now, I immediately missed the ability of the 1C's to extend lower in the bass department. If I had never heard the 2CE's, the 1C's wouldn't have been quite as lacking in this area, but I still would have been lusting after that extra extension. For some this will not be an issue because you will be using a sub, but for two channel a little extra kick in the chest would be nice. Second: the Vandersteen's seemed a tad softer at the same listening levels of the pre-amp, thus telling me they may not be as dynamic as the MA's. It wasn't a huge difference, but its something to remember when choosing the proper amplifier for this speaker.

Finally, the Vandersteen's were not as forgiving as the MA's with poor recordings. This may be considered a pro or a con depending on the listener. For me, it's was a pro because it means while listening to a good recording I won't be missing anything and it will be that much better. If you listen to a great deal of rock or heavy metal, the MA's may win by a nose.

In the end, my time was too short this weekend and it left me craving to have another day off dedicated to speaker auditioning. I had a blast and came away still preferring the Vandersteen sound in the $1000 or less price class (for the fronts). For HT I would recommend a subwoofer for both speakers, and probably the same for music (though a sealed sub with a lower Q would be best for music IMO). If I had to pick an overall winner, it's the Vandersteen 1C by a hair.

More to come when my journey continues this weekend...I can't wait!

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #197 of 6914 Old 10-22-2007, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Nuance -

Thanks for sharing your listening impressions. I suspect that your impression of the "boomy" bass of the MA RS line is a combination of a slight rise in the bass on that speaker along with positioning of the speaker in the room and your listening position. With a speaker that has some rise in the bass they tend to need to be out in the room a bit more. While there is some warmth to this speaker, the boominess was more than likely the room and your listening position.

I'm not surprised that you found the Vandy's a bit lean in the bass and more detialed. Your impressions of the sound correlate pretty closely to the measurements of that speaker.

The top line is the V1C


See that dip in the lower mids through the upperbass and the broad hump through the mids and lower treble? The dip = lean bass, and the mid-hump = "less comressed and recessed". And any emphasis in the lower treble will = "less forgiving / more detailed".

For comparison, here is the RS 6 (top line again)


This speaker has a mild "smile" curve (rise in the bass and treble, somewhat recessed midrange).

The one thing I don't quite understand is why you felt the Vandy had more "air and sparkle" than the MA. But this is why you can't rely on measurements alone. I would have thought that it would have been just opposite. Not just based on the measurements, but also my impression of the RS is that the treble was one of it's strong suits.

Both speakers have relatively strong characteristics so which one you choose ultimately comes down to personal preference, but then the same thing could be said about all speakers I suppose.

If you want a speaker that is more nuetral than either of these, but with a little extra sparkle, step up to the MA GS line if you can find them to listen to.

MA GS20, top line


Looking forward to your future impressions,

- Tim
hifisponge is offline  
post #198 of 6914 Old 10-22-2007, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Thanks Tim - good stuff. Where did you find those measurements?

Based on what you mentioned and the measurements, I guess I have trained my ear very well to not miss much.

As for the MA's, they were about 2.5-3' from the back walls and the side walls were many many feet away. The speaker positioning was pretty ideal, but the room wasn't fully treated (that I could see anyway). The setup was a mimic of what one would find in their home.

The Vandersteen's were certainly more open and airy, possibly because of the baffleless design and time and phase accuracy. Though it could have just been the difference in driver material...dunno. But they were, without a doubt, more open and airy with just as much detail (if not more). And I agree with what you said; don't go by measurements alone (you have to listen). Anyway, these speakers had almost no boundaries. I could stand up and move about the room without losing much detail, not to mention the soundstage didn't collapse and the imaging was still pretty pinpoint and precise. For a $899/pair speaker, I was astounded. It had been a while since I had listened to the 1C's and about 6 months since I listened to my 2CE sigs (packed in storage until recently). I really missed their sweet sound, but as mentioned earlier, they don't crank to reference levels when I want them to. For two-channel (well, more like 2.2 channel ), the 2CE's kill! But for home theater they could be easier to drive with a higher sensitivity. I mentioned in my first post that I need to find a speaker that can perform great with both two-channel and HT and that requirement hasn't changed. This is why I want a speaker with the Vandersteen sound but a high sensitivity rating...say 92-95dB. Or at least a speakers who's advertised sensitivity is also the real world sensitivity.

Man, I can't wait to get back out there! I wish I could during the week, but its just not possible.

Edit: I am liking the reviews for the MA Gold series. MA sure knows how to make a good speaker, no matter what price point you are looking at. You aren't the only one who recommended I take a look at their Gold series. I will certainly check it out.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #199 of 6914 Old 10-22-2007, 03:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The Vandy certainly sounds like it has some great qualities, though I fear that it would be too mid-forward for me.

The graphs are from hometheatermag.com. While the reviews in this mag are pretty much fluff or tied directly to advertising dollars from the manufacturer whose products they are reviewing, the graphs don't lie. Though I wish they post off-axis as well. BTW - just right click on the graph and select properties to view the address for any of the graphs I post.

I think that you are going to have a very small list of speakers to evaluate if you are loooking for 92-95 dB sensitivity. 89-91 dB would be more realistic.

Oh, and forgive me if I seem pushy on the MA GS's. It's totally cool with me if once you listen to them, they don't fall in line with your values / preferences.
hifisponge is offline  
post #200 of 6914 Old 10-22-2007, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

The Vandy certainly sounds like it has some great qualities, though I fear that it would be too mid-forward for me.

The graphs are from hometheatermag.com. While the reviews in this mag are pretty much fluff or tied directly to advertising dollars from the manufacturer whose products they are reviewing, the graphs don't lie. Though I wish they post off-axis as well. BTW - just right click on the graph and select properties to view the address for any of the graphs I post.

I think that you are going to have a very small list of speakers to evaluate if you are loooking for 92-95 dB sensitivity. 89-91 dB would be more realistic.

Oh, and forgive me if I seem pushy on the MA GS's. It's totally cool with me if once you listen to them, they don't fall in line with your values / preferences.

If you are worried about the "too mid-forward" midrange, they have adjustable midrange and treble controls on the back of the speaker. I forgot to look to see if the 1C had them, but I think they do. And the dealer always leaves them at the neutral position (0). However, perhaps these would be more your cup of tea (2CE Signature II's):


Yeah, you are right; 92-95 is asking a lot. I guess 89-91 real world would be right on the money.

I don't feel that you or anyone else is pushing the MA Gold's on me. I seriously want to hear them but would have had to special order them from the dealer that carries the Silver's. I don't want to make a dealer special order them and end up not liking them, thus not buying them. That would just be rude.

P.S. Here is something that Michael Fremer from Stereophile said about the Vandersteen Quatro's:

"I gave the $6495/pair Audio Physic Scorpio a well-deserved positive review in June, and now here I am doing likewise with a $7590/pair speaker featuring sophisticated powered woofers, and imaging and soundstaging capabilities second to no speaker I've heard at any price. Unfortunately, I hadn't heard both before reviewing the first."


For those who haven't heard Vandersteen's speakers, that latter part of that statement is just how I feel: "...imaging and soundstaging capabilities second to no speaker I have at any price." Now that's what I am talking about! Too bad they are so ugly!

P.S. # 2 Okay, I just get so excited when I read the full conclusion of Michael Fremer's Quatro review. For those who haven't read it, I urge you to do so and then tell me that it doesn't give you chills of excitement. Check it:
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...en/index1.html

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #201 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 12:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Nuance -

I would seriously like to hear a set of speakers that "image and soundstage better than any other . . . ". The Vandy's certainly sound like they are very special in these areas.

I don't mean to focus on the negative, but in reading the conclusion in the Stereophile review I felt the reviewer started off strong in the opening paragraphs, but became much more guarded in his comments by his closing.

"I found the Quatros' sonic picture extraordinarily detailed and musically convincing, and thoroughly enjoyed my time with them. I also found myself often watching and listening from the outsideenjoying, observing, and admiring, but not particularly engaged emotionally on a visceral level. Those were times when the speaker suffered from a "distortion" I call TMI, or Too Much Information. Some would say you can never have too much information. I disagree. The recording art aims at creating the illusion of reality. When the actor flies, I'd rather not see the wires."

So while it seems that this speaker images like crazy, it also sounds like it was too analytical for the reviewer at times.

It is this type of contrast in sound quality that makes it so damn difficult to settle on one speaker. And that is precisely why I have gone through so many speakers in the past four years. For example, if you remember, I owned Martin Logan ESL's for a while. If you are into vocal tracks and small jazz ensembles, you will not find a more transparent and real-sounding speaker than an ESL. But they also had a number of shortcomings that I ultimately couldn't compromise on.

I have also found that there is a honeymoon period for every speaker, where you focus on the strengths and overlook, or maybe fail to realize, the weaknesses. Then you live with them for a while and you discover that your speakers are sleeping with your best friend. Um, I mean you discover that that while you still love the special qualities that drew you to them in the first place, now there is than one thing that keeps nagging at you until you find it is time to start looking for a new partner.

If you are anything like me, and it seems like you are, just be prepared to make some compromises, and also expect to eventually want different speakers.
hifisponge is offline  
post #202 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Nuance -

I would seriously like to hear a set of speakers that "image and soundstage better than any other . . . ". The Vandy's certainly sound like they are very special in these areas.

I don't mean to focus on the negative, but in reading the conclusion in the Stereophile review I felt the reviewer started off strong in the opening paragraphs, but became much more guarded in his comments by his closing.

"I found the Quatros' sonic picture extraordinarily detailed and musically convincing, and thoroughly enjoyed my time with them. I also found myself often watching and listening from the outsideenjoying, observing, and admiring, but not particularly engaged emotionally on a visceral level. Those were times when the speaker suffered from a "distortion" I call TMI, or Too Much Information. Some would say you can never have too much information. I disagree. The recording art aims at creating the illusion of reality. When the actor flies, I'd rather not see the wires."

So while it seems that this speaker images like crazy, it also sounds like it was too analytical for the reviewer at times.

I think his comment about being not particularly engaged emotionally has to do with the speakers givng "TMI" or revealing too much of the recording. He said that he'd rather not see the wires, so I don't think too revealing is really a con, if that is in fact what he meant by his comment(s). Who knows, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

It is this type of contrast in sound quality that makes it so damn difficult to settle on one speaker. And that is precisely why I have gone through so many speakers in the past four years. For example, if you remember, I owned Martin Logan ESL's for a while. If you are into vocal tracks and small jazz ensembles, you will not find a more transparent and real-sounding speaker than an ESL. But they also had a number of shortcomings that I ultimately couldn't compromise on.

I have also found that there is a honeymoon period for every speaker, where you focus on the strengths and overlook, or maybe fail to realize, the weaknesses. Then you live with them for a while and you discover that your speakers are sleeping with your best friend. Um, I mean you discover that that while you still love the special qualities that drew you to them in the first place, now there is than one thing that keeps nagging at you until you find it is time to start looking for a new partner.

If you are anything like me, and it seems like you are, just be prepared to make some compromises, and also expect to eventually want different speakers.

You are right bud; reasons just like this make it darn near impossible to settle on one ultimate set of speakers. And you are correct about the honeymoon effect; we've all been there. But I am not going to repeat...I hope.

I am prepared to eventually want a different set of speakers, but my goal is to make that upgraditis dormant for many years. I don't want a speaker that performs well with Jazz but poor with rock and vice versa. I need something that excels at everything I throw at it, and that is why this journey is going to be so difficult.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #203 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 08:28 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Alimentall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home by the sea
Posts: 14,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
One comment. Soft drivers like poly, paper, woven fabrics, do not give "too much information". They do, however, suffer from cone resonance that make it *seem* like too much information. That's why reviewers ought to have a degree in acoustics or engineering as a minimum. Otherwise, they make nonsensical statements.

John
Alimentall is offline  
post #204 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 09:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tonygeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Near Cape Cod
Posts: 5,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

One comment. Soft drivers like poly, paper, woven fabrics, do not give "too much information". They do, however, suffer from cone resonance that make it *seem* like too much information. That's why reviewers ought to have a degree in acoustics or engineering as a minimum.

Which degree do you have?

Tony

In search of the Holy Grail.

Hometown team
tonygeno is offline  
post #205 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 09:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

Which degree do you have?

Oh, snap!
hifisponge is offline  
post #206 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 10:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tweeterex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philly
Posts: 1,532
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Which degree do you have?

Door wide open -

I think it would be generally more useful if everyone new to these forums is reminded that they are constantly being marketed to and pitched by people who post their affiliations and many others who do not. This is all part of marketing and advertising and you, the consumer, are the targets.
Noth...
tweeterex is offline  
post #207 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 11:09 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Alimentall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home by the sea
Posts: 14,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

Which degree do you have?

I took a lot of engineering classes, but just got bored with it and realized I didn't want to be an engineer as a profession. But then, I'm not a reviewer either. At least I understand the basics of why I hear what I hear.

John
Alimentall is offline  
post #208 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

At least I understand the basics of why I hear what I hear.

Are you implying that I don't?

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #209 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 11:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tonygeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Near Cape Cod
Posts: 5,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I took a lot of engineering classes, but just got bored with it and realized I didn't want to be an engineer as a profession. But then, I'm not a reviewer either.

But you do provide advice that might be construed as authoritative.

Tony

In search of the Holy Grail.

Hometown team
tonygeno is offline  
post #210 of 6914 Old 10-23-2007, 12:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jostenmeat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,298
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Are you implying that I don't?

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

But you do provide advice that might be construed as authoritative.

Agreed.

John, when I bought my last instrument, I "auditioned" over 100 over a two-year span. I cannot make a violin, guitar, piano to save my life, but I assure you I can hear as well, if not better, than many a luthier. They might know that, say, a nasal quality may emanate from a more severe thinness of the front end of a violin's frontal part of the soundboard, but I find that I can judge the overall package as well, if not better, than a typical luthier. And does this argument really matter? After all, I am the one who is going to enjoy it.

I would say the instrumentalists (consumers) are generally a better judge of a quality instrument than the makers ("engineers") themselves, believe it or not. Does such an analogy possibly apply to speakers? Maybe, maybe not.

Does the fact that I cannot make such an instrument render any "review" I offer to be completely without merit? I would hope not, but maybe you would think so.

 

 

jostenmeat is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off