I don't know. All this audiophile stuff seems to have taken me off course. All I really wanted was a set of speakers that sound good on the kind of music that I like. For me, that means the speaker must be able to play loud and have "punch" in the bass. A kick drum should feel like a punch in the chest. Music should be visceral!
Some number of years ago, I began with a bottom-end Pioneer receiver pushing the some speakers (CSG-404) with 15" woofers. They didn't sound too bad, but they had a paper tweeter, so the highend wasn't really there.
After much reading, I got convinced that what I needed was a system with a great midrange/topend in a sealed enclosure and a strong subwoofer, so I ended up with system 2: NHT SuperOnes and a Paradigm Sub (PS-1200). The system could play really low and the midrange/tweeter in the SuperOnes is really nice, but...the system just didn't have any slam. I couldn't figure it out. I had the whole frequency range covered and still much of my music didn't sound as good as I thought that it could.
On to system three. What I suspected that I was missing was in the mid-bass. I thought that maybe I just needed some larger woofers, but I didn't want to give up the great sound of the SuperOnes. After much reading, I decided to upgrade to the Athena AS-F2, which has two 8" woofers and a pretty good tweeter. So I brought them home, broke them in and...disappointed. Something was just still missing and this even after upgrading my amp to the marginally respectable Pioneer VSX-1014TX.
I ended up grabbing some speaker DIY software in order to try to understand what it was that I was/am missing in my music. I have discovered that it is just good old SPL. The problem is that to achieve high SPL in the mid-bass, you need to move lots of air and that means big woofers (15" canons) or *lots* of smaller ones. The attached paper is my first attempt to understand, mathematically, the mid-bass. My next setup will target a clean 110dB @50Hz with 6dB additional headroom for transients. I'll probably end up with one of the line arrays.
The attached paper shows that 110 dB SPL is simply impossible with a single 6.5" and the one investigated (Scan-Speak 21W8555-00) is certainly no slouch performer [07/10/30 EDIT: the 21W8555-00 is an 8" driver not a 6.5" driver.]. In fact, clean output maxes out around 95dB in this simulation, which just isn't too exiting (10-20 dB below THX reference).
I'm just wondering with all the money being spent on equipment in a no-holds-barred fashion, why is it that the primary component that affects the sound remains subject to limitations of interior decor. Where are all the manufacturers using 12-15" woofers?
So, what I am wondering is if any of this makes sense to anybody or have I just gone nuts?
EDIT/UPDATE: Some of the speakers that have been discussed or best embody the idea (sometimes a line will be mentioned by a company that has several lines, many of which suffice):
"Pureplays" - These speakers have big woofers to move lots of air:
- JBL K2 (the K2 is way out of my league, but it/Everest/Synthesis Line best captures the idea)
- Legacy Audio Focus HD
- Klipsch KLF-30 Legend Towers
- Tyler Acoustics Pro Dynamics PD-30
- Pi Speakers Professional Series (Professional version now offered as the "Four Pi" with JBL2226 woofer.
- Klipsch Cornwall III
"Woofer Area Equivalent" - These speakers have a larger number of smaller drivers, but 15" equivalent area (or thereabouts):
- GR-Research LS-6 Line Arrary Kit (Similar model available on pre-order @ **********)
- VMPS Audio RM40
- Klipsch RF-83 (only 3x8", (almost) = surface area of 1x15")
"Pro-Audio Recording Configuration" - These are sub/sat systems where the sub is not really targeting depth, but rather accuracy in the mid-bass region.
Genelec does have a couple systems that could work ( 1036A and 1035B), but they are stupid expensive ($70k/pr).
"Pro Audio Gig Equipment" - These are going to have maximum firepower, but will approach absolute zero for waf. The pro-audio "subwoofers" are the right idea, as they have high power capable, big radiating area, woofers. The JBL 2242H woofer is worth reading about and will explain why no 6.5" woofer could possibly compare with it.
- JBL PRX Series or Cinema (including the 4670D)
- Mackie SA Series
- Yorkville Unity™ Series
- Carvin LS Series
- Yamaha MSR Series
- Peavey PR Series
- Martin Audio Blackline Series
- Electrovoice ZX Series
- QSC HPR Series
- Alesis ProVenue Series
Pro Installed Sound:
- JBL Application Engineered Series Model 6215/95
(for several reasons, this is a quite nice speaker and may do the trick)
EDIT/UPDATE: Some other things that can affect mid-bass performance that are discussed throughout this thread include:
- Music compression. There has been a trend to reduce the dynamic range in order to maximize average SPL. This "louder is better" approach to mastering music crushes available SPL for transients/dynamics. Much music today doesn't have "slam" because there is only 3-6dB allowed for transients. Old school mastering allowed for 12-15dB worth of transients/dynamics and that is a huge difference in punch.
- Room Nulls. Many rooms will have various peaks (emphasis/constructive interference) and nulls (cancellations/destructive interference). A room with a null right in the mid-bass is doing to make the system sound absolutely dead, regardless of the amount of positive EQ used in order to try to bring it up. Various approaches (not listed here) are taken to correcting room nulls.
EDIT/UPDATE: It seems that is the past decade subwoofers have made remarkable advancements toward becoming more musical (much more controlled/respond from transients much quicker). I have not auditioned subwoofers recently, so I can't speak confidently to whether or not this could be a solution.
[This is from post #379 (i think)]:
The idea that speaker efficiency increases with driver radiating area is perhaps the key reason why 6.5" woofers just can't rock.
The formula is 10*LOG(multiple of area). For 4 drivers, the increase in efficiency attributable to area alone is 10*LOG(4) = 6.02db.
Here is an example of how increasing drivers (radiating area) increases efficiency (ceteris paribus):
Increasing number of drivers:
Number of Drivers...Driver Diameter....Efficiency
1.........................6.5"...................85db
2.........................6.5"...................88db
4.........................6.5"...................91db
8.........................6.5"...................94db
16........................6.5"...................97db
Increasing area of one driver:
Number of Drivers...Driver Diameter....Efficiency
1.........................6.5"...................85db
1.........................8.0"...................87.1db
1.........................10"....................89.3db
1.........................12"....................91.0db
1.........................15"....................93.1db
1.........................18"....................94.8db
The single 6.5" driver just can't compete against either a large number of small drivers, or a single large diameter driver (much less against large numbers of large drivers).
.
SPL Freq Resp and Transients small.pdf 431.484375k . file
Some number of years ago, I began with a bottom-end Pioneer receiver pushing the some speakers (CSG-404) with 15" woofers. They didn't sound too bad, but they had a paper tweeter, so the highend wasn't really there.
After much reading, I got convinced that what I needed was a system with a great midrange/topend in a sealed enclosure and a strong subwoofer, so I ended up with system 2: NHT SuperOnes and a Paradigm Sub (PS-1200). The system could play really low and the midrange/tweeter in the SuperOnes is really nice, but...the system just didn't have any slam. I couldn't figure it out. I had the whole frequency range covered and still much of my music didn't sound as good as I thought that it could.
On to system three. What I suspected that I was missing was in the mid-bass. I thought that maybe I just needed some larger woofers, but I didn't want to give up the great sound of the SuperOnes. After much reading, I decided to upgrade to the Athena AS-F2, which has two 8" woofers and a pretty good tweeter. So I brought them home, broke them in and...disappointed. Something was just still missing and this even after upgrading my amp to the marginally respectable Pioneer VSX-1014TX.
I ended up grabbing some speaker DIY software in order to try to understand what it was that I was/am missing in my music. I have discovered that it is just good old SPL. The problem is that to achieve high SPL in the mid-bass, you need to move lots of air and that means big woofers (15" canons) or *lots* of smaller ones. The attached paper is my first attempt to understand, mathematically, the mid-bass. My next setup will target a clean 110dB @50Hz with 6dB additional headroom for transients. I'll probably end up with one of the line arrays.
The attached paper shows that 110 dB SPL is simply impossible with a single 6.5" and the one investigated (Scan-Speak 21W8555-00) is certainly no slouch performer [07/10/30 EDIT: the 21W8555-00 is an 8" driver not a 6.5" driver.]. In fact, clean output maxes out around 95dB in this simulation, which just isn't too exiting (10-20 dB below THX reference).
I'm just wondering with all the money being spent on equipment in a no-holds-barred fashion, why is it that the primary component that affects the sound remains subject to limitations of interior decor. Where are all the manufacturers using 12-15" woofers?
So, what I am wondering is if any of this makes sense to anybody or have I just gone nuts?
EDIT/UPDATE: Some of the speakers that have been discussed or best embody the idea (sometimes a line will be mentioned by a company that has several lines, many of which suffice):
"Pureplays" - These speakers have big woofers to move lots of air:
- JBL K2 (the K2 is way out of my league, but it/Everest/Synthesis Line best captures the idea)
- Legacy Audio Focus HD
- Klipsch KLF-30 Legend Towers
- Tyler Acoustics Pro Dynamics PD-30
- Pi Speakers Professional Series (Professional version now offered as the "Four Pi" with JBL2226 woofer.
- Klipsch Cornwall III
"Woofer Area Equivalent" - These speakers have a larger number of smaller drivers, but 15" equivalent area (or thereabouts):
- GR-Research LS-6 Line Arrary Kit (Similar model available on pre-order @ **********)
- VMPS Audio RM40
- Klipsch RF-83 (only 3x8", (almost) = surface area of 1x15")
"Pro-Audio Recording Configuration" - These are sub/sat systems where the sub is not really targeting depth, but rather accuracy in the mid-bass region.
Genelec does have a couple systems that could work ( 1036A and 1035B), but they are stupid expensive ($70k/pr).
"Pro Audio Gig Equipment" - These are going to have maximum firepower, but will approach absolute zero for waf. The pro-audio "subwoofers" are the right idea, as they have high power capable, big radiating area, woofers. The JBL 2242H woofer is worth reading about and will explain why no 6.5" woofer could possibly compare with it.
- JBL PRX Series or Cinema (including the 4670D)
- Mackie SA Series
- Yorkville Unity™ Series
- Carvin LS Series
- Yamaha MSR Series
- Peavey PR Series
- Martin Audio Blackline Series
- Electrovoice ZX Series
- QSC HPR Series
- Alesis ProVenue Series
Pro Installed Sound:
- JBL Application Engineered Series Model 6215/95
(for several reasons, this is a quite nice speaker and may do the trick)
EDIT/UPDATE: Some other things that can affect mid-bass performance that are discussed throughout this thread include:
- Music compression. There has been a trend to reduce the dynamic range in order to maximize average SPL. This "louder is better" approach to mastering music crushes available SPL for transients/dynamics. Much music today doesn't have "slam" because there is only 3-6dB allowed for transients. Old school mastering allowed for 12-15dB worth of transients/dynamics and that is a huge difference in punch.
- Room Nulls. Many rooms will have various peaks (emphasis/constructive interference) and nulls (cancellations/destructive interference). A room with a null right in the mid-bass is doing to make the system sound absolutely dead, regardless of the amount of positive EQ used in order to try to bring it up. Various approaches (not listed here) are taken to correcting room nulls.
EDIT/UPDATE: It seems that is the past decade subwoofers have made remarkable advancements toward becoming more musical (much more controlled/respond from transients much quicker). I have not auditioned subwoofers recently, so I can't speak confidently to whether or not this could be a solution.
[This is from post #379 (i think)]:
The idea that speaker efficiency increases with driver radiating area is perhaps the key reason why 6.5" woofers just can't rock.
The formula is 10*LOG(multiple of area). For 4 drivers, the increase in efficiency attributable to area alone is 10*LOG(4) = 6.02db.
Here is an example of how increasing drivers (radiating area) increases efficiency (ceteris paribus):
Increasing number of drivers:
Number of Drivers...Driver Diameter....Efficiency
1.........................6.5"...................85db
2.........................6.5"...................88db
4.........................6.5"...................91db
8.........................6.5"...................94db
16........................6.5"...................97db
Increasing area of one driver:
Number of Drivers...Driver Diameter....Efficiency
1.........................6.5"...................85db
1.........................8.0"...................87.1db
1.........................10"....................89.3db
1.........................12"....................91.0db
1.........................15"....................93.1db
1.........................18"....................94.8db
The single 6.5" driver just can't compete against either a large number of small drivers, or a single large diameter driver (much less against large numbers of large drivers).
.
SPL Freq Resp and Transients small.pdf 431.484375k . file