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6.5" woofers just can't rock

43K views 403 replies 73 participants last post by  Thunder-rush 
#1 ·
I don't know. All this audiophile stuff seems to have taken me off course. All I really wanted was a set of speakers that sound good on the kind of music that I like. For me, that means the speaker must be able to play loud and have "punch" in the bass. A kick drum should feel like a punch in the chest. Music should be visceral!


Some number of years ago, I began with a bottom-end Pioneer receiver pushing the some speakers (CSG-404) with 15" woofers. They didn't sound too bad, but they had a paper tweeter, so the highend wasn't really there.


After much reading, I got convinced that what I needed was a system with a great midrange/topend in a sealed enclosure and a strong subwoofer, so I ended up with system 2: NHT SuperOnes and a Paradigm Sub (PS-1200). The system could play really low and the midrange/tweeter in the SuperOnes is really nice, but...the system just didn't have any slam. I couldn't figure it out. I had the whole frequency range covered and still much of my music didn't sound as good as I thought that it could.


On to system three. What I suspected that I was missing was in the mid-bass. I thought that maybe I just needed some larger woofers, but I didn't want to give up the great sound of the SuperOnes. After much reading, I decided to upgrade to the Athena AS-F2, which has two 8" woofers and a pretty good tweeter. So I brought them home, broke them in and...disappointed. Something was just still missing and this even after upgrading my amp to the marginally respectable Pioneer VSX-1014TX.


I ended up grabbing some speaker DIY software in order to try to understand what it was that I was/am missing in my music. I have discovered that it is just good old SPL. The problem is that to achieve high SPL in the mid-bass, you need to move lots of air and that means big woofers (15" canons) or *lots* of smaller ones. The attached paper is my first attempt to understand, mathematically, the mid-bass. My next setup will target a clean 110dB @50Hz with 6dB additional headroom for transients. I'll probably end up with one of the line arrays.


The attached paper shows that 110 dB SPL is simply impossible with a single 6.5" and the one investigated (Scan-Speak 21W8555-00) is certainly no slouch performer [07/10/30 EDIT: the 21W8555-00 is an 8" driver not a 6.5" driver.]. In fact, clean output maxes out around 95dB in this simulation, which just isn't too exiting (10-20 dB below THX reference).



I'm just wondering with all the money being spent on equipment in a no-holds-barred fashion, why is it that the primary component that affects the sound remains subject to limitations of interior decor. Where are all the manufacturers using 12-15" woofers?


So, what I am wondering is if any of this makes sense to anybody or have I just gone nuts?





EDIT/UPDATE: Some of the speakers that have been discussed or best embody the idea (sometimes a line will be mentioned by a company that has several lines, many of which suffice):


"Pureplays" - These speakers have big woofers to move lots of air:

- JBL K2 (the K2 is way out of my league, but it/Everest/Synthesis Line best captures the idea)

- Legacy Audio Focus HD

- Klipsch KLF-30 Legend Towers

- Tyler Acoustics Pro Dynamics PD-30

- Pi Speakers Professional Series (Professional version now offered as the "Four Pi" with JBL2226 woofer.

- Klipsch Cornwall III


"Woofer Area Equivalent" - These speakers have a larger number of smaller drivers, but 15" equivalent area (or thereabouts):

- GR-Research LS-6 Line Arrary Kit (Similar model available on pre-order @ **********)

- VMPS Audio RM40

- Klipsch RF-83 (only 3x8", (almost) = surface area of 1x15")


"Pro-Audio Recording Configuration" - These are sub/sat systems where the sub is not really targeting depth, but rather accuracy in the mid-bass region.


Genelec does have a couple systems that could work ( 1036A and 1035B), but they are stupid expensive ($70k/pr).


"Pro Audio Gig Equipment" - These are going to have maximum firepower, but will approach absolute zero for waf. The pro-audio "subwoofers" are the right idea, as they have high power capable, big radiating area, woofers. The JBL 2242H woofer is worth reading about and will explain why no 6.5" woofer could possibly compare with it.

- JBL PRX Series or Cinema (including the 4670D)

- Mackie SA Series

- Yorkville Unity™ Series

- Carvin LS Series

- Yamaha MSR Series

- Peavey PR Series

- Martin Audio Blackline Series

- Electrovoice ZX Series

- QSC HPR Series

- Alesis ProVenue Series


Pro Installed Sound:

- JBL Application Engineered Series Model 6215/95

(for several reasons, this is a quite nice speaker and may do the trick)


EDIT/UPDATE: Some other things that can affect mid-bass performance that are discussed throughout this thread include:


- Music compression. There has been a trend to reduce the dynamic range in order to maximize average SPL. This "louder is better" approach to mastering music crushes available SPL for transients/dynamics. Much music today doesn't have "slam" because there is only 3-6dB allowed for transients. Old school mastering allowed for 12-15dB worth of transients/dynamics and that is a huge difference in punch.


- Room Nulls. Many rooms will have various peaks (emphasis/constructive interference) and nulls (cancellations/destructive interference). A room with a null right in the mid-bass is doing to make the system sound absolutely dead, regardless of the amount of positive EQ used in order to try to bring it up. Various approaches (not listed here) are taken to correcting room nulls.




EDIT/UPDATE: It seems that is the past decade subwoofers have made remarkable advancements toward becoming more musical (much more controlled/respond from transients much quicker). I have not auditioned subwoofers recently, so I can't speak confidently to whether or not this could be a solution.




[This is from post #379 (i think)]:

The idea that speaker efficiency increases with driver radiating area is perhaps the key reason why 6.5" woofers just can't rock.


The formula is 10*LOG(multiple of area). For 4 drivers, the increase in efficiency attributable to area alone is 10*LOG(4) = 6.02db.


Here is an example of how increasing drivers (radiating area) increases efficiency (ceteris paribus):


Increasing number of drivers:

Number of Drivers...Driver Diameter....Efficiency

1.........................6.5"...................85db

2.........................6.5"...................88db

4.........................6.5"...................91db

8.........................6.5"...................94db

16........................6.5"...................97db


Increasing area of one driver:

Number of Drivers...Driver Diameter....Efficiency

1.........................6.5"...................85db

1.........................8.0"...................87.1db

1.........................10"....................89.3db

1.........................12"....................91.0db

1.........................15"....................93.1db

1.........................18"....................94.8db


The single 6.5" driver just can't compete against either a large number of small drivers, or a single large diameter driver (much less against large numbers of large drivers).



.

 

SPL Freq Resp and Transients small.pdf 431.484375k . file
 

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#280 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLIAMM /forum/post/12067294


You don't want much, do you?

those specs were in jest. i am just looking for a system that will play loud and clean.


also, i was looking at the waveforms in audacity and it appears that the "peak" for the kick drum is sometimes a little lower than the ~63hz that i have been using. in many cases the energy peak is in the 45-60hz range.


most of the p.a. gear, even the p.a. subs, tail off pretty quickly below 45hz. it all matches up pretty well.
 
#281 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/12068711


no need to be dismissive and no need to spend the $7k the nht system lists for.


let's see how it might be accomplished. an svs pb13u (~$1500) or maybe even an epik tower (~$1100; look at this performance ) and a pair of mackie hr824mk2's (~$1200 per pair) should do it. i suppose that i would be willing to pay something less than $2700, or even $2300.


this is just one possibility. i'm sure there are others. hopefully, folks will point out even better arrangements.

Well, sure, if all you care about is loud. Again, as others point out, you're asking for a product that plays much louder than necessary and throwing out arbitrary performance criteria. Why not just listen? Here's an example know well. The NHT M6 plays louder than an NHT Three. But the Three sounds *better* right up until about 105dB, which is louder than I ever play them or is necessary for normal home theater. So for less than blistering levels, the less expensive speaker with lower peak SPLs sounds better.


Or another example, that Xd system. It maxes out at 105dB with the standard crossover. No person that has ever listened to it has said anything but "holy crap, it cranks!". Not only that, but owners report that they listen louder than they ever have before. Why? Because up through its limits, it has lower distortion than other high-end speakers they've owned.


So, if you prefer loud over quality, that is easily achievable with lots of long throw drivers. Getting to sound as good as a well engineered bookshelf or small tower is the hard part. I think if you actually measured the SPL you actually use, you'd be surprised how much closer it is to 85 or 90dB than it is to 110dB, let alone 120dB.


For me, quality trumps quantity every time.
 
#282 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall /forum/post/12069332


Well, sure, if all you care about is loud. Again, as others point out, you're asking for a product that plays much louder than necessary and throwing out arbitrary performance criteria. Why not just listen? Here's an example know well. The NHT M6 plays louder than an NHT Three. But the Three sounds *better* right up until about 105dB, which is louder than I ever play them or is necessary for normal home theater. So for less than blistering levels, the less expensive speaker with lower peak SPLs sounds better.


Or another example, that Xd system. It maxes out at 105dB with the standard crossover. No person that has ever listened to it has said anything but "holy crap, it cranks!". Not only that, but owners report that they listen louder than they ever have before. Why? Because up through its limits, it has lower distortion than other high-end speakers they've owned.


So, if you prefer loud over quality, that is easily achievable with lots of long throw drivers. Getting to sound as good as a well engineered bookshelf or small tower is the hard part. I think if you actually measured the SPL you actually use, you'd be surprised how much closer it is to 85 or 90dB than it is to 110dB, let alone 120dB.


For me, quality trumps quantity every time.

no need to be dismissive and defensive. no one is attacking you. you have suggested an nht system. we all read the post.


please don't attack my goals as they were reasonably set forth in the paper in the OP (based on thx reference, equal loudness curves, etc.). many people have found the topic intriguing and worthy of discussion. there are many people who have found themselves lacking the mid-bass punch that inspired this thread. understanding why, and what to do about it, is our shared interest here.


this last part you will probably find hardest to digest, but consider that nobody cares that for you, "quality trumps quantity every time." it just doen't matter. please consider the value of your comments to this community before posting.


now, let's return to the conversation on mid-bass, why it's missing, and how we can get it back.
 
#283 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/12068711


hopefully, folks will point out even better arrangements.

Paradigm Studio 100s v4 matched with a Pair of JL F112 subs..


The F112 has a FR of approx. 20-120hz +-1.5db with 116-117 max spl between 40-62hz with less than 10% THD measured @ 2 meters..


While not in the OP's price range, it is one of the best options in being loud, clean, and asthetically pleasing...


I have the Paradigms, just need a a couple more $ to be able to buy the dual F112s.
 
#284 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/12070416


this last part you will probably find hardest to digest, but consider that nobody cares that for you, "quality trumps quantity every time." it just doen't matter. please consider the value of your comments to this community before posting.


now, let's return to the conversation on mid-bass, why it's missing, and how we can get it back.

The community of people with non existent problems? It's like trying to find a starving kid in the US. Since you persist in worrying about fantasy issues, I'll let you have at it!
 
#285 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrzVpr /forum/post/12070590


Paradigm Studio 100s v4 matched with a Pair of JL F112 subs..


The F112 has a FR of approx. 20-120hz +-1.5db with 116-117 max spl between 40-62hz with less than 10% THD measured @ 2 meters..


While not in the OP's price range, it is one of the best options in being loud, clean, and asthetically pleasing...


I have the Paradigms, just need a a couple more $ to be able to buy the dual F112s.

cool, but let me take the other side. if you throw dual f112s into the mix, do you need studio 100's or could you achieve the same results with a lesser model.


and, are f112's as quick/clean as the typical 12-15" p.a. woofer?
 
#286 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/12070874


cool, but let me take the other side. if you throw dual f112s into the mix, do you need studio 100's or could you achieve the same results with a lesser model.


and, are f112's as quick/clean as the typical 12-15" p.a. woofer?

You need sufficient displacement to reach 6dB less than your target output level at your desired cross-over point. This probably means a 3-way. Or sub-driver that will play cleanly up to a higher frequency which is rare.


Also note that 10% is not a reasonable distortion limit - its way too high. 1% is a more reasonable (but harder to achieve) number because of where the equal loudness curves lie at the bottom end of the frequency spectrum : your ear is much more sensitive (~24dB/octave) to the distortion components than the fundamentals.
 
#287 ·
OK ... With all this talk of subwoofers to improve mid-bass ( kind of ass backwards really ) , I thought I would give the Stratus Gold i's another well earned plug.

I went to a customer's house to listen to his home theater one evening. It was very , very good. He was using Gold i's for his front left and right channels. I commented on how great his subwoofer was integrated with his system , and how low it played on the better movie tracks we were listening to ( The room absolutely ROCKED on Jurassic Park ) .... He then shocked me by saying " I don't have a subwoofer , I just send the LFE to the two front speakers " ...
 
#288 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by meansrt /forum/post/12073277


OK ... With all this talk of subwoofers to improve mid-bass ( kind of ass backwards really ) , I thought I would give the Stratus Gold i's another well earned plug.

I went to a customer's house to listen to his home theater one evening. It was very , very good. He was using Gold i's for his front left and right channels. I commented on how great his subwoofer was integrated with his system , and how low it played on the better movie tracks we were listening to ( The room absolutely ROCKED on Jurassic Park ) .... He then shocked me by saying " I don't have a subwoofer , I just send the LFE to the two front speakers " ...



Sounds about right to me. Most posters on this forum do not approve of that setup however.


I send LFE and redirected bass to my main R & L speakers as well, but I then I fill in from 50Hz on down with dual subwoofers stacked in the front corner. I get stereo bass when it exists, and decent bass below 50 Hz via the stacked subwoofers.


My mains are three way, with dual 6.5" long throw sealed woofers crossed at 80 Hz to a single 6.5" sealed mid range and the tweeter. The two 6.5" drivers roll off at 45 Hz, so the subwoofers fill in the deep bass at right around 50 Hz.


For an 80Hz mid bass signal, the three 6.5" drivers for each main speaker are all working together. Mid bass is not lacking, but you still have to play pretty loud to get that punch.


DD and DTS DVD's are no problem at the proper volume level, but CD's just don't have the dynamic range needed to get that mid bass punch when I listen at a normal and reasonable volume level.


One other note, if your subwoofer and main speakers are out of time or phase a bit, you will lose that punch!
 
#290 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/12073806


Sounds about right to me. Most posters on this forum do not approve of that setup however.


My mains are three way, with dual 6.5" long throw sealed woofers crossed at 80 Hz to a single 6.5" sealed mid range and the tweeter. The two 6.5" drivers roll off at 45 Hz, so the subwoofers fill in the deep bass at right around 50 Hz.

It's worth noting that excursion remains constant below a sealed speaker's lowest high-pass pole, while in a ported speaker it gets way out of hand.


As long as you don't exceed the voice coil power ratings, feeding excessive low frequency content to a sealed speaker is going to produce minimal output (decreasing at 12dB/octave) but not hurt anything.


Trying the same with ported or open-baffle speakers can produce loud clacks that sound expensive when the voice coil formers slam into the back plate.


And while theatrical sound tracks lack energy below 40Hz, DVDs (WotW Tom Cruise version) are remixed to add them.


Quote:
One other note, if your subwoofer and main speakers are out of time or phase a bit, you will lose that punch!

Here it's worth noting that each high pass pole adds 90-0 degrees of phase lead and each low-pass pole 0-90 degrees of phase lag centered on the pole (IOW, 45 degrees at the pole).


A ported speaker has 4 high-pass poles and sealed speaker 2. If you don't take this into account when crossing to a sub-woofer you can have real suck outs.
 
#291 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/12066777

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aphasia /forum/post/12066543


Then i seriously hope that there will come out some of the more esoteric stuff for general consumtion. There are truly grand systems created where physics takes a head seat, and looks the backseat, which unfortunately lead to some very ugly, however great sounding design and some even grander looking designs. But mostly, some spectacular results. Of course, it requires actually building the room the house them in to get the best results but... no compromises right.
But then, most people dont really need a virtually flat(48-25K +-1db) response at a speaker that can do >131db/pair(100Hz 950W).

could we at least have 20-40hz ±1.5db @110db; 40-20k, ±1.5 @116db?

Oh sorry, i did fail to mention that the above speakers were only tops that handle middle range and tweeter, to get the full range you need the bass-support modules. Then you can choose yourself about how far down you want it.


Or you can easily get one of his more modest full-range creations, 24 - 26000 Hz / ±1 dB and > 118db/pair. They are quite modest in price too. And these are usually what people use at home for the ones that get em. As for the monster top-system described above, they are used in larger studios, etc.
 
#292 ·
woud you consider, since you mentioned studio monitors previously

JBL LSR 6332 mated with the LSR 6312SP?

or perhaps the JBL LSR 6328P with the LSR 6312SP? I think the volume and low distortion may be in the 'ball park' levels you seek.
 
#293 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt /forum/post/12072441


You need sufficient displacement to reach 6dB less than your target output level at your desired cross-over point. This probably means a 3-way. Or sub-driver that will play cleanly up to a higher frequency which is rare.


Also note that 10% is not a reasonable distortion limit - its way too high. 1% is a more reasonable (but harder to achieve) number because of where the equal loudness curves lie at the bottom end of the frequency spectrum : your ear is much more sensitive (~24dB/octave) to the distortion components than the fundamentals.

this comment is another really good one. does anyone know where we can find the "audible distortion" curves? perhaps 10% is ok @ 20Hz, not really audible, but at 1K, like drew says, 10% is way too high. my bet would be that they look much like the equal louness curves, but who knows.
 
#294 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt /forum/post/12072441


You need sufficient displacement to reach 6dB less than your target output level at your desired cross-over point. This probably means a 3-way. Or sub-driver that will play cleanly up to a higher frequency which is rare.


this is another intriguing one. by this i an assuming that if both speakers (the high and the low) are down 6dB, then they will combine to keep SPL flat. is this really true, particularly when the crossover frequency is right in the middle of the "high energy" part of the musical spectrum? put another way, would two speakers playing a kick drum beat at 55Hz, both at -6dB, have the *exact* same dynamics as a single driver?


one thing that keeps coming up with respect to perceived dynamics is how fast the driver can "stop on a dime". what if both speakers are not eqully able to recover from transients. (most subs, even the current generation that are much "cleaner" are still not as fast as the woofer on speakers that they are typically supporting.)


my hunch is that, perhaps, with a lot of qualifications. drew is the man, as this is another great point. if the speakers are out of phase around the crossover point, then there will be a dip?
 
#295 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by meansrt /forum/post/12073277


OK ... With all this talk of subwoofers to improve mid-bass ( kind of ass backwards really

that is what i thought as well when i started the thread and is why i didn't give the idea much attention until i had done a lot more research. some of the current subs actually come pretty close to p.a. woofers that have really snappy mid-bass. i haven't heard them yet, so i can't confirm, first hand, either the seemingly adequate specs or the annecdotal accounts.
 
#296 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt /forum/post/12074827



Here it's worth noting that each high pass pole adds 90-0 degrees of phase lead and each low-pass pole 0-90 degrees of phase lag centered on the pole (IOW, 45 degrees at the pole).


A ported speaker has 4 high-pass poles and sealed speaker 2. If you don't take this into account when crossing to a sub-woofer you can have real suck outs.

can you point us to any resources where we can read more about this point?
 
#297 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone215 /forum/post/12075394


woud you consider, since you mentioned studio monitors previously

JBL LSR 6332 mated with the LSR 6312SP?

or perhaps the JBL LSR 6328P with the LSR 6312SP? I think the volume and low distortion may be in the 'ball park' levels you seek.

yes. i added them to the list a while back. they do seem interesting, if a little pricey. do you know how the 6328p's compare to the mackie hrs824mk2's?


also, do you know how would the 6312sp (sub) would compare with something like the pb13u from svs?
 
#298 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/12076883


one thing that keeps coming up with respect to perceived dynamics is how fast the driver can "stop on a dime". what if both speakers are not eqully able to recover from transients. (most subs, even the current generation that are much "cleaner" are still not as fast as the woofer on speakers that they are typically supporting.)

Measurements of impulse response are sorely lacking in speaker reviews. I have seen measurements by JBL of some of their Pro studio monitors, but that's about it. Dunlavy used to present this measurement but they are bankrupt. The Stereophile waterfall plots give an idea of "cleaness" so I like them for that.


I personally favor mutiple smaller drivers in a L/R/C speaker, say 3x6.5" or 2x8" rather than say a single 12", because I assume that the individual drivers, being less massive, will be better-controlled, and therefore "faster" and "cleaner". Even if I give up a little effective piston area by going that way. Another benefit to that sort of design is the narrower cabinet...less diffraction issues, as I understand it.
 
#299 ·
LTD02,


JBL has plenty of info and (for studio monitors) measurements on the jblpro.com site. You could also check out the 4300 series. As I have suggested before, the gearslutz forum is a good place if you are looking for user opinions on pro gear. Prices on pro gear are very easy to find on the web, some sources are bhphotovideo, musiciansfriend, zzsounds, sweetwater, mercenaryaudio (allows you to return speakers after trial, you are just out r/t shipping).
 
#300 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/12076883


this is another intriguing one. by this i an assuming that if both speakers (the high and the low) are down 6dB, then they will combine to keep SPL flat. is this really true, particularly when the crossover frequency is right in the middle of the "high energy" part of the musical spectrum?

It's true for Linkwitz-Riley with drivers located about the same distance from your measurement point.


It's simple vector addition. With second order cross-overs the outputs are always 180 degrees out-of phase, so inverting one and adding gets you twice the high or low frequency output. With power proportional to the square of magnitude, the SPL delta is 20 log 2 = +6dB. With fourth order cross-overs the outputs are always 360 degrees out-of phase and the same thing happens.


With Linkwitz-Riley cross-overs the outputs are -6dB at the cross-over point (magnitude .5 @ 0 degrees). Add the vectors (with the necessary inversion for 2nd, 6th, etc. orders) and you get 1 @ 0 degrees which is flat SPL. With Butterworth filters the outputs are -3dB at the cross-over point or magnitude sqrt(2)/2 at 0 degrees. Add them together and you get a vector magnitude sqrt 2 @ 0 degrees, SPL 20 log sqrt 2 or 10 log 2 = 3dB.


First order filters have their outputs 90 degrees out of phase each 3dB down or magnitude sqrt(2)/2; adding the vectors at +/- 45 degrees and you get magnitude 1 @ 0 degrees SPL 20 log 1 = +0dB.

Quote:
put another way, would two speakers playing a kick drum beat at 55Hz, both at -6dB, have the *exact* same dynamics as a single driver?

Yes with a Linkwitz-Riley cross-over.


The practical implications are that at the cross-over point your SPL limit is approximately the higher frequency driver's at the cross-over point plus 6dB. Shallower cross-over slopes mean that the high frequency driver's excursion (remember that a 12dB/octave roll-off is complemented by a 12dB/octave increase in excursion so its excursion remains constant) can still limit you at lower frequencies.

Quote:
one thing that keeps coming up with respect to perceived dynamics is how fast the driver can "stop on a dime". what if both speakers are not eqully able to recover from transients. (most subs, even the current generation that are much "cleaner" are still not as fast as the woofer on speakers that they are typically supporting.)

Obviously ringing in either driver at the cross-over point is going to contribute equally to sound in the time domain.

Quote:
my hunch is that, perhaps, with a lot of qualifications. drew is the man, as this is another great point. if the speakers are out of phase around the crossover point, then there will be a dip?

Yes. Phase lag is introduced by the sub being farther than the main speaker, phase lead by the sub being closer or its high-pass function.


Siegfried has a page on his web site which illustrates the effect of phase errors on sub-woofer cross-over summation, including phase lead from its high-pass function.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_5.htm#T


In the educational vein, an $80 AES membership also gets you $5 downloads of interesting papers. Lots of things that are "open to discussion" amongst audiophiles have been understood for decades.


I'm stuck on crutches, can't do outdoor sports, and probably shouldn't try getting to my workshop on the other side of town or balancing while operating power tools.I need to figure out which of my usual account names and passwords goes with that and catch up on my reading.
 
#302 ·
do you know how the 6328p's compare to the mackie hrs824mk2's?


also, do you know how would the 6312sp (sub) would compare with something like the pb13u from svs?

__________________

no idea on how the two monitors would compare, however, I sure would like to be in the room when the comparison takes place! Both have been measured very very flat. Me, I would take my chances with the R & D that the JBL team has done under Toole and others, lots of dollars, resources, experience. Both are probably excellent. For most listeners, they may be too accurate. Very low distortion on the JBLs. I haven't seen the graphs on the 824s.

sub wise I am a little confused. The home theater subs seem to emphasize the ability to go lower than 20hz, while most of the pro stuff only goes down to the 22-28Hz levels, concentrating on higher frequencies, lower distortion, and higher spls. The JBL subs are also low distortion and capable of clean high spls. I would love to hear them in order to access their capabilities and their sound quality.

I guess for music mixing, their purpose, the systems do not need to go lower than 22Hz, for home theater, there is info below the 22Hz limit that adds some 'thrill' to the experience. I can't wait till JBL decides it wishes to conquer the real low sub frequencies. That ought to be some sub.

Great Thread.

bone
 
#303 ·
There's something I'd like to clarify. Doubling the number of watts going into a speaker increases dB by 3, right? So if I feed a 88-sensitivity speaker with 1 watt, I get 88dB, and with 2 watts, 91dB. What does adding a 2nd speaker do, fed with the same number of watts as the first, does it increase collective volume by 3db also? 1 watt into each of a pair of speakers = a total of 91db?


A related question is, when music or movie audio is coming from the far L or far R, is the sound generally mixed such that it is actually emantaing generally from just 1 speaker, or 2?
 
#304 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei /forum/post/12101070


What does adding a 2nd speaker do, fed with the same number of watts as the first, does it increase collective volume by 3db also?

No, if the speakers are playing the same content it becomes more complicated than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei /forum/post/12101070


A related question is, when music or movie audio is coming from the far L or far R, is the sound generally mixed such that it is actually emantaing generally from just 1 speaker, or 2?

Not really sure what you're asking. The soundtrack is mixed by the engineer to achieve the desired 'effect'. Sometimes the info may be completely unique to one speaker. Sometimes it may be mixed between two speakers in order to achieve the desired 'positional' effect.
 
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