6.5" woofers just can't rock - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 404 Old 10-10-2007, 10:30 PM
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If you think SuperOnes don't have punchy midbass, then I don't think you're seeking anything remotely accurate. I would go for the Cerwin-Vegas to get what you want.

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post #92 of 404 Old 10-10-2007, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrzVpr View Post

I kindly disagree.
I have two Yorkville LS800P's and at half gain they push the air out of my lungs.. Of course we are comparing apples and oranges but they are subwoofers none the less.

This would make more sense as most HomeTheater subwoofers have an expected operating range of 20hz-80hz where as audio subwoofers have a range from 50-150hz.. but have tons of spl in the midbass region..

Thats why Im thinking of the HRS120, it was designed not as a HT subwoofer but a studio monitor for mixing music where it is we want the punch in the chest..

That type of midbass is really not needed for movies and is lost in the xover..

Thoughts?

the Yorkville LS800P is spec'd +/-3 db from 45-150Hz, so it (as you point out) is obviously not what most people around here would consider a subwoofer. that freq. range is mid bass. at 134 max SPL, i bet that it could "push the air out of your lungs."

as for the the HRS120, 21-150 flat response w/100db efficiency and 500 watts peak power would sure seem to do the trick. would you need one for each channel?

i don't know, it seems like have one driver set handle the mid-bass 50-200+Hz and another for the sub <=50Hz would be better.

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post #93 of 404 Old 10-10-2007, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

If you think SuperOnes don't have punchy midbass, then I don't think you're seeking anything remotely accurate. I would go for the Cerwin-Vegas to get what you want.

Okay, I'll bite. What is the max SPL from the SuperOne's @50Hz (with reasonable distortion)?

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post #94 of 404 Old 10-10-2007, 10:52 PM
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Without a sub? Not that loud. However, that's why you cross over and run dual subs. Then you have deep bass *and* the midbass you want. Of course, as I said, it's better to look for speakers with dual midbass drivers if very high output with low distortion is a priority. You can't just toss stuff together and then make blanket indictments.

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post #95 of 404 Old 10-10-2007, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Without a sub? Not that loud.

That's all I was saying.

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post #96 of 404 Old 10-10-2007, 11:17 PM
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"punchy" and loud are different things, generally speaking. In fact, punchy is generally a unique form of pleasant distortion. So, yes, the Superone has "punchy" midbass, at least going by all the people that comment to me on them. But your initial problem was your sub. If you fix that, then you'd want midbass drivers no bigger than 8" unless you just want to change the type of distortion you get.

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post #97 of 404 Old 10-10-2007, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

"punchy" and loud are different things, generally speaking. In fact, punchy is generally a unique form of pleasant distortion.

Well, we just seem to define things differently. I don't want to argue over definitions here. To each his own. In the OP, I well define what I am seeking and curious as to why we don't see more of it in the no-holds-barred audophile world. One way that I choose to describe a speaker's ability to very closely trace a high SPL, mid-bass frequency, transient is "punchy." If you choose to define it as "generally a unique form of pleasant distortion," then that's fine.

If we could steer the thread back to the OP or explore more deeply some of the related ideas in the other posts, that would be great.

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post #98 of 404 Old 10-10-2007, 11:46 PM
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There's nothing wrong with 6.5" midbass drivers, they "rock" just fine, you just need more of them. Like 2-3. If I were to make my perfect speaker, it would have something like dual 12" subwoofers, 2-4 6.5" midbass drivers, a 4" mid and a 1" or .75" tweeter. Well, the something like the discontinued NHT T6, I guess, just actively DSP driven in my dreams.

I think the JBL speakers are a huge step in the wrong direction for fidelity. Many of these speakers are one trick ponies.

I also wonder if you understand a midbass driver's job. It's just a bridge. The subwoofer is supposed to do the heavy lifting. Have multiple small drivers for midbass is a huge advantage over a 12" or 15" which will start to add heavy resonances by the time they get to upper bass. 12" woofers need to be crossed over by about 80Hz. The 6.5" midbass drivers, crossed over appropriately, will play very loud. The NHT T6 system was good for 111dB with dual 6.5" midbass drivers. The new M80 with dual 8" drivers is good for 120dB (with the benefit of DSP crossovers, at least).

I think a lot of quasi-audiophile companies recognize that most people are going to buy a sub no matter what, so they're smartly dropping in a bunch of 6.5" to 8" drivers to lower midbass and upper bass distortion and actually have the kind of punch and dynamic output you seek. So your OP simply makes me think you're confused about what companies are actually doing these days and why.

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post #99 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

There's nothing wrong with 6.5" midbass drivers, they "rock" just fine, you just need more of them. Like 2-3. If I were to make my perfect speaker, it would have something like dual 12" subwoofers, 2-4 6.5" midbass drivers, a 4" mid and a 1" or .75" tweeter. Well, the something like the discontinued NHT T6, I guess, just actively DSP driven in my dreams.

I think the JBL speakers are a huge step in the wrong direction for fidelity. Many of these speakers are one trick ponies.

I also wonder if you understand a midbass driver's job. It's just a bridge. The subwoofer is supposed to do the heavy lifting. Have multiple small drivers for midbass is a huge advantage over a 12" or 15" which will start to add heavy resonances by the time they get to upper bass. 12" woofers need to be crossed over by about 80Hz. The 6.5" midbass drivers, crossed over appropriately, will play very loud. The NHT T6 system was good for 111dB with dual 6.5" midbass drivers. The new M80 with dual 8" drivers is good for 120dB (with the benefit of DSP crossovers, at least).

I think a lot of quasi-audiophile companies recognize that most people are going to buy a sub no matter what, so they're smartly dropping in a bunch of 6.5" to 8" drivers to lower midbass and upper bass distortion and actually have the kind of punch and dynamic output you seek. So your OP simply makes me think you're confused about what companies are actually doing these days and why.

I haven't looked at NHT's offerings in a long time. The T6 system that you mention sure does look awesome. I think that we may be back to semantics though. I would characterize that system more as having its woofers in a separate box rather than having subwoofers. It appears that they are expected to carry the duty of frequencies up over 100Hz, while lacking the bottom octave. Anyway, the little M6 that sits on top has 86dB sensitivity, so without the quad 12's supporting the music, there wouldn't be much there there, which was kind of the point of the OP. Now, if you are going to throw 4 high sensitivity, high power, 12"s into the mix, that's a different story!

The M80-Xd may make me eat my words! As you note, the specs indicate 120dB SPL and 41-20kHz. I'd like to know if the SPL spec is achievable @50Hz which would definitely be "punchy" or if the SPL spec is just a very high peak created by the 2" aluminum dome midrange or some other marketing gimmickry. If it is 120dB @50Hz and flat from there up, that would be fantastic!

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post #100 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 01:17 AM
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Well, look, if you're' saying that 6.5" drivers don't make good subs, I agree. If you're saying one of them doesn't make for high output midbass and below, I agree. Of course that's the case. But, if you have a subwoofer for deep bass, then multiple 6.5" or 8" drivers make a *lot* of sense for mid/upper bass and low midrange. Most all tower speakers today are designed for use with subs, kind of like more powerful bookshelf speakers, with speakers like the T6 being an obvious exception (the T6 bass section is a true subwoofer, BTW, and there's a new 20Hz option for them).

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post #101 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 01:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

Well, look, if you're' saying that 6.5" drivers don't make good subs, I agree. If you're saying one of them doesn't make for high output midbass and below, I agree. Of course that's the case. But, if you have a subwoofer for deep bass, then multiple 6.5" or 8" drivers make a *lot* of sense for mid/upper bass and low midrange. Most all tower speakers today are designed for use with subs, kind of like more powerful bookshelf speakers, with speakers like the T6 being an obvious exception (the T6 bass section is a true subwoofer, BTW, and there's a new 20Hz option for them).

Here is some math:

Max SPL is a function of driver excursion and driver area.

The JBL 2226 is a 15" woofer that can create "slam" when driven to its maximum linear excursion. It has a maximum linear excursion (xmax) of 7.6mm. Let's see what the linear excursion would have to be of a 6.5" and an 8.0" to match SPL of the 2226.

6.50....8.00....15.00...diameter (in)
33......50......177.....area (in^2)
40.5....26.7....7.6.....excursion (mm)

The 6.5" and 8" would have to have 40.5mm and 26.7mm respectively of linear excursion in order to match the SPL of the 2226. Nothing on the market is going to have that kind of xmax, so this math (if correct) should end the debate on whether or not a 6.5" will ever match the big daddy on SPL. To match a single 2226, one would need about ***6*** 6.5" drivers driven to the same 7.6mm xmax.

This is why I was questioning the specs of the new NHT monitor. Two 8" would need about 13mm linear travel. That's a lot of travel for a woofer that is being sold as a studio monitor. Maybe technology has advanced that far? Maybe my math is all wrong!

Can the engineers jump in at this point and point out the flaws in these (simplified) calculations?

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post #102 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 04:16 AM
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Do you guys agree what sub and midbass frequencies are? Alimentall refers to sub and midbass, while LTD refers to peak SPL at 50Hz. (I would call midbass something between 100 & 300Hz).
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post #103 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 04:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

Do you guys agree what sub and midbass frequencies are? Alimentall refers to sub and midbass, while LTD refers to peak SPL at 50Hz. (I would call midbass something between 100 & 300Hz).

This was already addressed, but here it is again.

The OP was kind of focused on the kick drum, which has a fundamental at ~80Hz and has a first harmonic at ~160Hz, so 50-200Hz is probably a good "rule of thumb" range for mid-bass.

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post #104 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 05:36 AM
 
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Really big woofers (eg 12" or 15") are rarely found in passive speakers anymore, only powered subs. The reason for this is that without their own enclosure and dedicated amp, they are hard to control, resulting in poorly defined bass. Multiple small drivers in place of a single large one is a popular design precisely because it allows the resulting bass to be much tighter, with much faster transients.
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post #105 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PULLIAMM View Post

Really big woofers (eg 12" or 15") are rarely found in passive speakers anymore, only powered subs. The reason for this is that without their own enclosure and dedicated amp, they are hard to control, resulting in poorly defined bass. Multiple small drivers in place of a single large one is a popular design precisely because it allows the resulting bass to be much tighter, with much faster transients.

Okay, that is pretty logical, so let's go with that for a bit. If merely trying to achieve better control is the objective, why not have a number of drivers such that SPL can be preserved while achieving this better control? Foregoing one 15" driver is going to require something like *eight* 6.5" drivers in its place in order to preserve SPL, no?

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post #106 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 06:43 AM
 
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I won't get into the tightness debate. I will say that using smaller drivers offers several advantages though, mostly related to having a narrower baffle. A narrow baffle of course being more advantageous for imaging/soundstaging, as well as pure looks. I also suspect cost may well play a factor, as has the emergence of the dedicated subwoofer.

In any event...yes a 15" driver with 7.5mm xmax kills a 6.5" driver in 50Hz output. But then again, those are primarily used for professional applifications, and by those who want to go deaf by the time they reach 30. A fair comparison? Nah.

However, for the sake of amusement, lets take a look at another professional grade bass guitar speaker. Still overkill for home usage by most reasonable people, but ohh well. Driver in question is the Eminence Basslite S2012 Neo 12" Bass Guitar Speaker. No I didn't go searching for the weakest bass guitar driver in the world either, for the naysayers. I simply hit up parts express and looked at their one and only 12" bass guitar driver. I'd suspect its still a bit overkill for home usage, but ohh well.

In any event: to keep in line with the above numbers, surface area is 113 square inches. Dividing that by 33, you get 3.4, which is still quite an advantage in cone area. Xmax of the speaker is 5.2mm. So effectively, you'd need a 6.5" driver with an Xmax of 17.7mm to keep up. I don't have any of those available, but the Adire Extremis 6.8 drivers in my speakers have a 13mm Xmax, which narrows the gap considerably. Two of them in a box would certainly make the 15" big boy worry a little bit.

Then add a subwoofer. Say you cross over at 100Hz. The typical XO in your receiver will high pass with your speakers at 12dB/octave roll off beyond the -3dB downpoint of 100Hz. This means output will be 15dB down by the time you hit the 50Hz mark, drastically reducing what your mains have to do there.

Now as far as my subwoofer goes, it has a 10" driver with a roughly 25mm Xmax. It should be pretty effective at 50Hz, just going by those calculations. And of course, my subwoofer is just the entry level model....
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post #107 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stefano-M View Post

I won't get into the tightness debate. I will say that using smaller drivers offers several advantages though, mostly related to having a narrower baffle. A narrow baffle of course being more advantageous for imaging/soundstaging, as well as pure looks. I also suspect cost may well play a factor, as has the emergence of the dedicated subwoofer.

In any event...yes a 15" driver with 7.5mm xmax kills a 6.5" driver in 50Hz output. But then again, those are primarily used for professional applifications, and by those who want to go deaf by the time they reach 30. A fair comparison? Nah.

However, for the sake of amusement, lets take a look at another professional grade bass guitar speaker. Still overkill for home usage by most reasonable people, but ohh well. Driver in question is the Eminence Basslite S2012 Neo 12" Bass Guitar Speaker. No I didn't go searching for the weakest bass guitar driver in the world either, for the naysayers. I simply hit up parts express and looked at their one and only 12" bass guitar driver. I'd suspect its still a bit overkill for home usage, but ohh well.

In any event: to keep in line with the above numbers, surface area is 113 square inches. Dividing that by 33, you get 3.4, which is still quite an advantage in cone area. Xmax of the speaker is 5.2mm. So effectively, you'd need a 6.5" driver with an Xmax of 17.7mm to keep up. I don't have any of those available, but the Adire Extremis 6.8 drivers in my speakers have a 13mm Xmax, which narrows the gap considerably. Two of them in a box would certainly make the 15" big boy worry a little bit.

Then add a subwoofer. Say you cross over at 100Hz. The typical XO in your receiver will high pass with your speakers at 12dB/octave roll off beyond the -3dB downpoint of 100Hz. This means output will be 15dB down by the time you hit the 50Hz mark, drastically reducing what your mains have to do there.

Now as far as my subwoofer goes, it has a 10" driver with a roughly 25mm Xmax. It should be pretty effective at 50Hz, just going by those calculations. And of course, my subwoofer is just the entry level model....

Points taken.

I knew someone was going to pull the Extremis 6.8--the longest throw non-subwoofer 6.5" there ever was! I was thinking a DIY with eight in array would be killer. How do they sound? The long throw with the XBL should give much linear response across more of that excursion than the traditional design. I've never heard them, but they sure do spec well. Too bad, it appears that Adire is dead.

I'm still not sure if the idea of crossing a sub at 100Hz is the solution. Aren't you going to get weird doppler effects by doing that? By that I mean if your subwoofer is moving across 2" of travel at 20Hz and you overlay a music at 100Hz aren't you going to be able to hear weird effects in the 100Hz sound?

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post #108 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 07:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

Okay, that is pretty logical, so let's go with that for a bit. If merely trying to achieve better control is the objective, why not have a number of drivers such that SPL can be preserved while achieving this better control? Foregoing one 15" driver is going to require something like *eight* 6.5" drivers in its place in order to preserve SPL, no?

I have wondered that myself. The most I have seen is four 6.5" drivers per cabinet (Polk Monitor 70s, eg.)
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post #109 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 07:45 AM
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ltd02, all speakers are a compromise. They might compromise bass slam, or they might comprimise midrange accuracy, or highs, or they might compromise your bank account.
For bass you are correct, there is no replacement for displacement - as you have discovered this can be performed by one big driver or several smaller ones. The chest thump you desire can be delivered either way - the thump can also depend on the room and speaker and listener position (ironically bass absorption in a room can help with the thump because it lets the thump through but absorbs the muddiness). Even with some bass treatments my room has good and bad places for bass - I know where to sit if I want the thump, and where to sit if I want things a little more balanced. I also know I could get more chest vibration by having more woofer area - but that does not mean the bass would be better (my speakers, b&w 703, only have two small bass drivers - they could use more, but I had to compromise - they will thump your chest if you sit in the right spots).

Based on your posts, you want good bass, good midrange and highs, but don't want to spend enough to get "no holes barred" speakers. What is your budget? I'm guessing around 5-8K. The Paradigm S8 and B&W 803d I think fall within this range and deliver good sound and good bass slam. You could probably build yourself something better for less money, but that would compromise your free time.

Every body has a different frequency that makes it thump. You can use an eq to boost these frequencies if you want (for most people it lies somewhere between 40 and 100 hz). Most live rock shows probably boost these frequencies because their fans like it - you can get away with this in a large venue, not always a good idea in a home.

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #110 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 07:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

How do they sound? The long throw with the XBL should give much linear response across more of that excursion than the traditional design. I've never heard them, but they sure do spec well. Too bad, it appears that Adire is dead.

I think very highly of my speakers, and as a result, the 6.8. They are a tad insensitive (a tradeoff for going very deep), but the sound they put out is superb IMO. Very low distortion, excellent transient response, etc. I ran them full range for a long time in a smaller room with excellent results. However, using a subwoofer gives them a heck of a lot more headroom.

As far as an array of them, it would be interesting for sure, although costly.


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I'm still not sure if the idea of crossing a sub at 100Hz is the solution. Aren't you going to get weird doppler effects by doing that? By that I mean if your subwoofer is moving across 2" of travel at 20Hz and you overlay a music at 100Hz aren't you going to be able to hear weird effects in the 100Hz sound?

If you're worried about it, use a bigger subwoofer to reduce cone travel. I can't say I've ever heard anyone complain about that kind of an effect though when they cross over at 80Hz,, so I'm not sure why it would pop up at 100Hz.

Localization may well be a problem at 100Hz, but that depends on the listener, placement, etc.
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post #111 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 08:01 AM
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p.s. You might consider replacing your amp with one that can deliver clean power at the levels you want (or buy very efficient speakers). IMO your amp should be able to deliver AT LEAST the maximum amount your speakers are rated to handle if you want to go loud.

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #112 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

..."no holes barred" speakers.

Now, that's a new one to me.

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post #113 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

Can the engineers jump in at this point and point out the flaws in these (simplified) calculations?

Well, why do you think we don't use 15" drivers for midrange and treble? 25Hz requires 4 times as much air as 50Hz. If you have your sub handling 80Hz it needs 1/8th the excursion that it does at 20Hz. That's where a couple of 6" drivers can take over very well. It's not how much air you can move, it's how well you move it.

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post #114 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

ltd02, all speakers are a compromise. They might compromise bass slam, or they might comprimise midrange accuracy, or highs, or they might compromise your bank account.

A truism said well.

I'll look into the S8 and 803d as well.

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Every body has a different frequency that makes it thump. You can use an eq to boost these frequencies if you want (for most people it lies somewhere between 40 and 100 hz). Most live rock shows probably boost these frequencies because their fans like it - you can get away with this in a large venue, not always a good idea in a home.

Sometimes it can be a good idea given that we don't perceive low frequency sounds to be as loud as they are. THX has recently released Loudness Plus, which does this among other things.

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post #115 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

Now, that's a new one to me.

Never mind. Have fun.

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #116 of 404 Old 10-11-2007, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

p.s. You might consider replacing your amp with one that can deliver clean power at the levels you want (or buy very efficient speakers). IMO your amp should be able to deliver AT LEAST the maximum amount your speakers are rated to handle if you want to go loud.

great point. i am considering the crown xti2000 if i go with passive inefficient speakers (that can still go to high SPL with lots of power). however, there seem to be lots of good options that are quite efficient, so i may not need to upgrade the ampage.

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post #117 of 404 Old 10-12-2007, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a white paper that describes speaker dynamics among other things:

High Emotion Audio - What it is and how do we achieve it?

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post #118 of 404 Old 10-13-2007, 04:03 AM
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I would also suggest a pair of Mackie HRS120's crossed over to a pair of Mackie HR824's run as full range. The HRS120 uses a lightweight RCF pro driver and can be crossed very high. The spec sheet shows its maximum SPL as 117db (short term transient) If you went with a Mackie loudspeaker, such as the 1530, you'll have a lumpier FR and hiss from the horns at lower volumes, but tons of midbass overhead.

I plan on adding the 120's to my 824s, running them full range and either adding 2 more down the road for lower end renforcement (lets face it, a single 12" PR won't move much air) or a pair of large DIY subs and cross them <50hz and relieve the HRS120's single PR of the lowest octave duties. Then I should have slam, fidelity and killer LFE.

It is too bad they discontinued the HRS150, however for the cost of the HRS150, twin HRS120s offer even better performance for less.

Just my 2 cents on this topic!

DrV


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post #119 of 404 Old 10-13-2007, 04:47 AM
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with all due respect to those here, im glad i dont need such fancy speakers. if i want 'clean and loud', i just crank up my 6 (vintage) 20+ yr old advent 'model ones' (10"+2")(that i paid $50 each for 2 yrs ago) and let'em rip. or run them quiet. very clean at any volume. imo, of course.

10' from 84" screen.


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post #120 of 404 Old 10-13-2007, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinculum View Post

I would also suggest a pair of Mackie HRS120's crossed over to a pair of Mackie HR824's run as full range. The HRS120 uses a lightweight RCF pro driver and can be crossed very high. The spec sheet shows its maximum SPL as 117db (short term transient) If you went with a Mackie loudspeaker, such as the 1530, you'll have a lumpier FR and hiss from the horns at lower volumes, but tons of midbass overhead.

I plan on adding the 120's to my 824s, running them full range and either adding 2 more down the road for lower end renforcement (lets face it, a single 12" PR won't move much air) or a pair of large DIY subs and cross them <50hz and relieve the HRS120's single PR of the lowest octave duties. Then I should have slam, fidelity and killer LFE.

It is too bad they discontinued the HRS150, however for the cost of the HRS150, twin HRS120s offer even better performance for less.

Just my 2 cents on this topic!

DrV

Great 2 cents! Mackie studio monitoring equipment has been mentioned by more than one other person and looks very interesting. I suppose that if the sub is sufficiently "fast", then (as you note) it could have the slam as well as the rumble. That the 824's spec @ 39-22k +/-1.5dB AND 121 dB peak SPL is freak'n nuts! I'm going to take a hard look into your suggestion. Thanks!

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