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post #3811 of 6464 Old 01-29-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by teknipper View Post

I am a proud hair legged cyclist. I am just to lazy to shave.

On that point, I never seen a good cyclist with an elbow pad.

Tom

PS - LOVE THE SOCKS!!!!

The reason for the elbow pad is the year before, I shattered that elbow at Nationals in Indiana, and another crash on it wouldn't be good. I went through two surgeries to regain 95% use of that arm. I shouldn't even have been racing a criterium!

And, yeah, I wear the socks to annoy people on Specialized and Cannondale bikes.

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post #3812 of 6464 Old 01-29-2012, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Cyclists don't have hairy legs...at least the good ones don't.


Hairy legged here in Kansas city, and quite sure would keep up with your old ass. Now onto business I need height speakers for my theater what would you suggest? I have bronze lcr's and bronze surrounds.

Thanks
Barry
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post #3813 of 6464 Old 01-29-2012, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bezlar View Post

Hairy legged here in Kansas city, and quite sure would keep up with your old ass. Now onto business I need height speakers for my theater what would you suggest? I have bronze lcr's and bronze surrounds.

Thanks
Barry

Post your race result resume and we'll see. "Keep up" isn't "beating." I am NOT feeling the love in this room...

Are the heights going high on the wall or in the ceiling? A pair of InCeiling Silver/6 Sats would be great. You could do InCeiling Bronze/8 Sats and save fifty bucks each, but that savings isn't worth it. InCeiling Silver/6 Sats are $500 each, and don't forget the custom paint!

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post #3814 of 6464 Old 01-29-2012, 06:28 PM
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I could do either ceiling or high on walls. I think walls would sound better. I would prob just hang on all day no need to lead.
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post #3815 of 6464 Old 01-29-2012, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

I have the Bronze/10 sub mounted in my office ceiling at the 1/3 wave, between the center and right front, and backed up to the wall so I get some coupling. It thumps pretty good, and my office is almost 2,200 cubic feet. The sub is hard to see because of the reflection, and the fact that the grills are paint matched to the ceiling color. (A free service from Triad because we actually make these puppies in America.)

Question: what kind of wire is need for a sub with rack mounted amp, regular speaker wire is fine?

--Sebis


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post #3816 of 6464 Old 01-29-2012, 09:47 PM
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Hi everyone, I could use a little advice on surrounds and heights and wides. I am using Gold In-Room LCR and a Gold LCR center channel and was planning on using Gold 8 Omni SE for Rear surrounds. Due to my room configuration a true 7.1 set up is not available, so my question is would any one add heights or wides or just leave it at 5.1? If you would add heights and wides, which would you choose first and would it be best to use the Gold 8 Omni SE? Also the heights and wides would be mounted in a standard 8 ft ceiling. Thanks.
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post #3817 of 6464 Old 01-30-2012, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Schaf44 View Post

Hi everyone, I could use a little advice on surrounds and heights and wides. I am using Gold In-Room LCR and a Gold LCR center channel and was planning on using Gold 8 Omni SE for Rear surrounds. Due to my room configuration a true 7.1 set up is not available, so my question is would any one add heights or wides or just leave it at 5.1? If you would add heights and wides, which would you choose first and would it be best to use the Gold 8 Omni SE? Also the heights and wides would be mounted in a standard 8 ft ceiling. Thanks.

I have Wides in my 9.3 system. (See "My System" in my signature.) This is the most enveloping, immersive, cohesive and seamless surround experience I've ever had. Sounds just "flow" around the room...they never "jump" from speaker to speaker like they used to when I just had 5.1. With a 5.1 system, there always seemed to be a "hole" between the front soundstage and the surround soundfield. That hole is gone with the addition of the Wides.

In addition, I find that the Wides present a better sense of the "space" that is being reproduced. Large, open spaces sound like large open spaces. Small, inimate spaces sound small and intimate.

Of course, this is with monopole speakers. Dipoles give a similar sense of envelopment, but they don't enough specific directionality for sounds that are supposed to be directional. If you go with Wides or Heights, I strongly recommend monopoles, such as the Omni SE's you're asking about. I can't speak to whether the Omni SE is a good timbre-match for the Gold LCR's, and I will let others help with that... Paul? I will say, however, that a good timbre-match is very important for the wides and surrounds in a multi-channel, monopole system. The Silver Monitors I use for Wides and Surrounds have the same mid and tweeter drivers as my Platinum fronts. The timbre-match is as nearly perfect as one can get, (without using Platinum LCR's all around. )

After a lot of experimentation, I find that PLIIx Movie + DSX is my preferred processing mode. However, there are multiple other DSX modes to chose from. There are also modes for Dolby Height, which requires Height speakers. I have no experience with Heights, but be aware that Dolby Height speaker placement is different than DSX Height speaker placement. If you do one, the speaker placement will be wrong for the other.



http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/...z-details.html

vs DSX:



http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx

Also, there is a new variety of 9-channel or 11 channel surround: DTS Neo:X. It uses a very similar speaker layout to DSX. I have no experience with it.. yet
http://www.dts.com/professionals/sou...-3d-audio.aspx

Good luck.

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post #3818 of 6464 Old 01-30-2012, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Schaf44 View Post

Hi everyone, I could use a little advice on surrounds and heights and wides. I am using Gold In-Room LCR and a Gold LCR center channel and was planning on using Gold 8 Omni SE for Rear surrounds. Due to my room configuration a true 7.1 set up is not available, so my question is would any one add heights or wides or just leave it at 5.1? If you would add heights and wides, which would you choose first and would it be best to use the Gold 8 Omni SE? Also the heights and wides would be mounted in a standard 8 ft ceiling. Thanks.

To add to what craigjohn stated (which was good advice) .. I would go wides before heights. Chris K. at Audyssey recommends it. Since you are doing "Gold 8 Omni SE" for the surrounds (in ceiling right?), do you not have the option of an inwall on onwall for DSX wides? I'm not sure how that would work for wides since they should be on the same plane as the mains (ie, at ear height).

If you look a little ways up this thread, I just added in ceiling speakers as wides, but I'm going to build them into columns (rotating them 90 degrees and mounting them on the wall). The placement is perfect for wides and I agree with craigjohn in that it is the most enveloping sound field I have ever experienced. I had never played with DSX wides or heights and didn't want to invest thousands trying to figure out if I liked it. I got a couple bronze LCR 8's off ebay to flank my Gold LCRs (in room). Now that I have experienced it .. Gold Omni SE's will probably be my next upgrade and the bronze LCRs will start to serve height duty.

Gold 8 Omni SE is the same tweeter as the Gold LCR so a great match!
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post #3819 of 6464 Old 01-30-2012, 01:43 PM
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^^^

but I have zero issues with the bronze LCR 8 blending with the Gold LCRs. Putting my ear to the DSX wides, the information is ... well ... 'effect' information so I don't think match is uber critical (but that my .02).
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post #3820 of 6464 Old 01-30-2012, 02:46 PM
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Pauley and Craig, I appreciate the responses. I don't have the ability to put any thing on what would be the right wall of the room, as it opens up to my bar. That is why they would go in ceiling and why i wasn't sure which to use or how they would differ since they would both be in ceiling. Also for wides, how far outside of the L and R should they be located? Should the be in line with the rear surrounds?
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post #3821 of 6464 Old 01-30-2012, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Schaf44 View Post

Pauley and Craig, I appreciate the responses. I don't have the ability to put any thing on what would be the right wall of the room, as it opens up to my bar. That is why they would go in ceiling and why i wasn't sure which to use or how they would differ since they would both be in ceiling. Also for wides, how far outside of the L and R should they be located? Should the be in line with the rear surrounds?

I re-attached the DSX diagram in my post above. For some reason it didn't come through before. It shows the differences in layout of Heights for Dolby PLIIz vs DSX. If you click the DSX link, it shows the layouts for all the iterations of DSX. They can certainly go in the ceiling at the angles shown. I would make an attempt to aim them at the listening position.

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post #3822 of 6464 Old 01-31-2012, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sebis View Post

Question: what kind of wire is need for a sub with rack mounted amp, regular speaker wire is fine?

You may have code restrictions for running wire in walls, so check with the local authorities. Other than that, 12-g stranded copper is good for runs up to 100'.

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post #3823 of 6464 Old 02-02-2012, 09:41 PM
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Hi Paul,
I'm using Inwall Bronze 4 satellite for my LCR in my bed room. What do you recommend for my rear surrounds. Thanks
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post #3824 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 05:49 AM
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Hi Paul,
I'm using Inwall Bronze 4 satellite for my LCR in my bed room. What do you recommend for my rear surrounds. Thanks

You could do two more Bronze Sats, or even a pair of Bronze Surrounds. With Bronze Sats, I'd recommend a minimum crossover point of 100 Hz, for a little better power handling and lower distortion.

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post #3825 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 06:08 AM
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If anyone is interested, I have my Silver DSP sub listed on Agon. No real need for it considering I have a pair of Plat DSP subs in the same room. Couldn't help it.. got a little bass crazy for a while.


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post #3826 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 06:15 AM
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If anyone is interested, I have my Silver DSP sub listed on Agon. No real need for it considering I have a pair of Plat DSP subs in the same room. Couldn't help it.. got a little bass crazy for a while.

Tony obviously isn't bass crazy anymore because he has pared down to a meager 2,000 watts and two 18" drivers in a 2,300 cubic foot room. Seriously, as great as the Silver DSP Sub is, I don't think you could even hear it over the crushing output of those two Platinums.

I highly recommend this sub for anyone doing a Silver or Bronze system in a room under 2,500 cubic feet.

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post #3827 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 10:28 AM
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Thanks for all of the great advice over the past week. I bit the bullet -ordered 2 in-wall gold LCR's, 1 custom horizontal in-wall gold LCR for center, 4 in-wall gold surrounds, and 1 in-wall silver/15 sub (to be used with my existing AT 352 PSB subs). As I noted earlier, the fronts will all be mounted in an existing 4" studded wall, but I am building frames to extend out another 2" to be covered with GOM FR701 fabric, and insulated with OC 705 to cover the speakers and provide a seamless front wall with all front speakers totally concealed.

Based on what I've seen on this thread, I realize that my horizontal in-wall center is not the best arrangement, since it will need to be positioned below my (existing non AT) screen. Obviously sometimes compromise is necessary - I'm just pleased that Triad is able to custom build the gold LCR with a vertical driver so that I can arrange it horizontally as a center. The center will be installed about 10 inches above the floor. Will this placement significantly compromise the sound? Since I'm mounting 6" speakers in a 4" wall, I may be able to mount the center somewhat tilted toward the main listening position a bit - would this be advisable? What about the front L/R's - should I toe those in a bit as well?

I'm definitely excited for this system, and can't wait until they arrive! The new Denon 4311ci and Emotiva XPA-3 are just waiting!
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post #3828 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by KMM View Post

Thanks for all of the great advice over the past week. I bit the bullet -ordered 2 in-wall gold LCR's, 1 custom horizontal in-wall gold LCR for center, 4 in-wall gold surrounds, and 1 in-wall silver/15 sub (to be used with my existing AT 352 PSB subs). As I noted earlier, the fronts will all be mounted in an existing 4" studded wall, but I am building frames to extend out another 2" to be covered with GOM FR701 fabric, and insulated with OC 705 to cover the speakers and provide a seamless front wall with all front speakers totally concealed.

Based on what I've seen on this thread, I realize that my horizontal in-wall center is not the best arrangement, since it will need to be positioned below my (existing non AT) screen. Obviously sometimes compromise is necessary - I'm just pleased that Triad is able to custom build the gold LCR with a vertical driver so that I can arrange it horizontally as a center. The center will be installed about 10 inches above the floor. Will this placement significantly compromise the sound? Since I'm mounting 6" speakers in a 4" wall, I may be able to mount the center somewhat tilted toward the main listening position a bit - would this be advisable? What about the front L/R's - should I toe those in a bit as well?

I'm definitely excited for this system, and can't wait until they arrive! The new Denon 4311ci and Emotiva XPA-3 are just waiting!

Congratulations on your wise decision to "bite the bullet," or "pull the trigger," or "pull my finger." While an AT screen would make for a better theater, the configuration you describe will work great. (BTW, my new favorite AT screen is Seymour AV, with a very tight, random weave. They look better than my Screen Research, which looks very good.)

If you can toe in the left and right speakers just a bit, you'll have more focus at the listening area, and possibly less first reflections. If you can bank the center speaker upward a few degrees, that will help even more. Because the left and right speakers have vertically-aligned drivers, toeing them in isn't critical, but it will help. Even 5-10 degrees would be great, although it will make the frame trickier to get right.

With the center at 10" above the floor, you'll get some reinforcement in the lower midrange and bass, but you should be able to EQ that out with your receiver. And remember that even though those are large speakers, run them as "small" with an 80 Hz crossover frequency.

Everyone who has done Gold LCRs in this thread has been happy with them, or at least they haven't said differently. They're a great value, and you should be very happy with your system. Thanks for choosing American-made speakers, too.

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post #3829 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

(BTW, my new favorite AT screen is Seymour AV, with a very tight, random weave. They look better than my Screen Research, which looks very good.)

Which product? The XD product or the Enlightor 4k?

I have both samples and am planning to use the 4k material.....

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Originally Posted by adidino View Post

If anyone is interested, I have my Silver DSP sub listed on Agon. No real need for it considering I have a pair of Plat DSP subs in the same room. Couldn't help it.. got a little bass crazy for a while.

Is there something wrong with me? I've been planning on using either two Plat subs or two LMS 5400's along with 2-3 Cinema Plus Silvers in a 4600+ ft^3 room.

And no.............I'm not a basshead!

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post #3831 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

You could do two more Bronze Sats, or even a pair of Bronze Surrounds. With Bronze Sats, I'd recommend a minimum crossover point of 100 Hz, for a little better power handling and lower distortion.

Can I use in ceiling rounds?
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post #3832 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Tony obviously isn't bass crazy anymore because he has pared down to a meager 2,000 watts and two 18" drivers in a 2,300 cubic foot room. Seriously, as great as the Silver DSP Sub is, I don't think you could even hear it over the crushing output of those two Platinums.

I highly recommend this sub for anyone doing a Silver or Bronze system in a room under 2,500 cubic feet.

Sounds pretty good to me, I shot for reference level down to 10hz. Using four sealed subs (3,700 watts) in a 1,250CF room.

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post #3833 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Congratulations on your wise decision to "bite the bullet," or "pull the trigger," or "pull my finger." While an AT screen would make for a better theater, the configuration you describe will work great. (BTW, my new favorite AT screen is Seymour AV, with a very tight, random weave. They look better than my Screen Research, which looks very good.)

If you can toe in the left and right speakers just a bit, you'll have more focus at the listening area, and possibly less first reflections. If you can bank the center speaker upward a few degrees, that will help even more. Because the left and right speakers have vertically-aligned drivers, toeing them in isn't critical, but it will help. Even 5-10 degrees would be great, although it will make the frame trickier to get right.

With the center at 10" above the floor, you'll get some reinforcement in the lower midrange and bass, but you should be able to EQ that out with your receiver. And remember that even though those are large speakers, run them as "small" with an 80 Hz crossover frequency.

Everyone who has done Gold LCRs in this thread has been happy with them, or at least they haven't said differently. They're a great value, and you should be very happy with your system. Thanks for choosing American-made speakers, too.

Off topic warning.
Paul, if you like the Seymour AV Center Stage XD, then try the Seymour/Screen Excellence Enlightor 4K. It is a fantastic material. You can walk right up to it in a well lit room and not realize that it is a woven AT screen. It looks like a solid white unity gain screen. As soon as I saw the Enlightor 4K at Cedia, I decided that I wanted it. It is that good.

Now for on-topic. The Gold's are excellent speakers. I especially like them for an in-wall solution.

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post #3834 of 6464 Old 02-03-2012, 10:07 PM
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Class AB is no better than properly designed and executed Class D, Class H, or Class G. This has been the case for a decade. There are some crappy-sounding Class D amp sections of cheaper receivers, but anything at the high end (or separates) should be indistinguishable from Class A, AB, or B. My Lyndorf amps aren't Class A or Class AB (a variation of Class D) and they sound wonderful. Class AB amps run very hot, too, and that shortens their life unless they're well-ventilated. I've heard great results from Outlaw as well as Emotiva amps, but there are many great amps you can buy from your local dealer. I would give that a try, too.

Triad uses BASH amplifier technology in their subs, which is a hybrid that runs cool and efficient like Class D, but with the sound and power of a good Class AB design.

That seems to be heavily disagreed with by many professional listeners, and myself. Plus you don't see major audiophile speaker company's using anything but high powered class A or class A/b amps. If indistinguishable, You'd think high-end amp manufacturers like Krell or Audio Research would at least have one model using a switching type amplifier. As for the BASH amps in subs, it's usually mid-high to high frequencies they suffer in class d amplification. Subs have a much smaller frequency range and Lower frequencies have much less detail.
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post #3835 of 6464 Old 02-04-2012, 06:05 AM
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Is there something wrong with me? I've been planning on using either two Plat subs or two LMS 5400's along with 2-3 Cinema Plus Silvers in a 4600+ ft^3 room.

And no.............I'm not a basshead!

What you're doing makes more sense than what I was doing. I was attempting to use the Silver as a fill sub. My next phase would be to do something similar your setup. A CP Bronze or silver tied into every surround speaker (7.1).


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post #3836 of 6464 Old 02-04-2012, 06:41 AM
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That seems to be heavily disagreed with by many professional listeners, and myself. Plus you don't see major audiophile speaker company's using anything but high powered class A or class A/b amps. If indistinguishable, You'd think high-end amp manufacturers like Krell or Audio Research would at least have one model using a switching type amplifier. As for the BASH amps in subs, it's usually mid-high to high frequencies they suffer in class d amplification. Subs have a much smaller frequency range and Lower frequencies have much less detail.

Read this short article by Jeff Rowland, who uses Class D. (So does Halcro, and many other high-end amplifier companies.) There are some lousy-sounding Class D amplifiers, but most of them use cheap modules and they may not be implemented properly. I wouldn't make the general statements you make about Class D any more than I'd make a general statement about Class AB. And my Lyngdorf amplifiers are superb, for lack of a better word. The cheaper Class D amplifiers are, as you infer, great for bass because they deliver oodles of power without bulk and heat. When Class D amplifiers started to become popular with designers years ago, I didn't know of any good ones. Rowland was the first. So, while Krell and Audio Research don't use Class D, Halcro and Rowland do. To each his own. Personally, I don't care as long as the sound is powerful and neutral, the amp isn't as big as a Nissan Versa, and I don't have to run a 440 line to it. Class D and variations of it are the future, and they'll continue to develop and improve.

http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/quest...questionid=136

BTW, BASH amplifiers are hybrids, with smart power supplies and Class AB output stages. I've heard some good full-range BASH amps, and I think as the technology is more refined, they have great potential. The best of both worlds. We are now in an "Energy Star" world, and the days of behemoth amps that are on 24/7, drawing 200 watts at idle are about to be over.

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post #3837 of 6464 Old 02-04-2012, 06:50 AM
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Off topic warning.
Paul, if you like the Seymour AV Center Stage XD, then try the Seymour/Screen Excellence Enlightor 4K. It is a fantastic material. You can walk right up to it in a well lit room and not realize that it is a woven AT screen. It looks like a solid white unity gain screen. As soon as I saw the Enlightor 4K at Cedia, I decided that I wanted it. It is that good.

From what I have seen and heard, the Seymour 4k is the real deal. AT screens are a developing technology, and this one may be the best so far, and certainly among the best. It's so important to have the three front speakers positioned properly, and AT screens are the answer. I believe that the only time a horizontal center should be used is with a smaller rear projection LCD, plasma, etc. Projectors have become so good and so inexpensive, and screens have improved greatly as well.

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post #3838 of 6464 Old 02-04-2012, 06:59 AM
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Has anyone here had any experience with the Marantz AV7007 preamp/processor or the Sunfire TGA-7401 amp? I have not found much info on the Sunfire on the internet period and I would like to hear your opinions on pairing the Marantz preamp/processor and Sunfire amp with Triads.
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post #3839 of 6464 Old 02-04-2012, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post


Read this short article by Jeff Rowland, who uses Class D. (So does Halcro, and many other high-end amplifier companies.) There are some lousy-sounding Class D amplifiers, but most of them use cheap modules and they may not be implemented properly. I wouldn't make the general statements you make about Class D any more than I'd make a general statement about Class AB. And my Lyngdorf amplifiers are superb, for lack of a better word. The cheaper Class D amplifiers are, as you infer, great for bass because they deliver oodles of power without bulk and heat. When Class D amplifiers started to become popular with designers years ago, I didn't know of any good ones. Rowland was the first. So, while Krell and Audio Research don't use Class D, Halcro and Rowland do. To each his own. Personally, I don't care as long as the sound is powerful and neutral, the amp isn't as big as a Nissan Versa, and I don't have to run a 440 line to it. Class D and variations of it are the future, and they'll continue to develop and improve.

http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/quest...questionid=136

BTW, BASH amplifiers are hybrids, with smart power supplies and Class AB output stages. I've heard some good full-range BASH amps, and I think as the technology is more refined, they have great potential. The best of both worlds. We are now in an "Energy Star" world, and the days of behemoth amps that are on 24/7, drawing 200 watts at idle are about to be over.

I understand that the class d amplifier may sound better than it once did. I don't see how an article about repurposing a low cost sub amp as a full range amp argues any better to the point that all high end amp types are indistinguishable from one another. Even your two amp companies used as examples used class a/b designs for there flagships. If indistinguishable, why build a super expensive, horribly inefficient class a/b at all. Also, why would the BASH amplifiers used an a/b output stage unless there was some effect on sound quality.
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post #3840 of 6464 Old 02-04-2012, 08:36 AM
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I understand that the class d amplifier may sound better than it once did. I don't see how an article about repurposing a low cost sub amp as a full range amp argues any better to the point that all high end amp types are indistinguishable from one another. Even your two amp companies used as examples used class a/b designs for there flagships. If indistinguishable, why build a super expensive, horribly inefficient class a/b at all. Also, why would the BASH amplifiers used an a/b output stage unless there was some effect on sound quality.

I'm trying to understand your premise, which seems to be Class D amplifiers can't sound as good as Class AB amplifiers. I agree to some extent that it's easier to design a big, expensive Class A or Class AB amplifier that sounds good than it is to get a Class D amplifier to measure and sound good. And the bulk of the best sounding amps today are Class AB, or some variation of Class AB. Some designers have broken through that barrier, though. I have worked with Peter Lyngdorf, and he is one of them. The SDA-2175 is a stunning performer, with PWM output stage. On the other hand, I was a test evaluator for Sony's PWM amplifier in 1980, and above 3 kHz, it sounded terrible, muted and flat.

I believe that rather than focusing on the general performance of Class B, Class AB, Class G, Class H, Class D, etc., we have to look at the specific implementation of a certain design. Many high-end amplifier companies who use Class AB and Class D are simply buying high-end Class D modules; not designing them in-house. There are horrible, cheap Class D amp modules, and there are very good ones. There are also proprietary designs by Lyngdorf, Smedegaard, and others that are exceptional. The SDA-2175 has had some excellent reviews, and seems to stand up very well to any under-$2,000 stereo amplifier. In my career, I worked on development of seven separate amplifiers, including the Citation amps of the '90s, and we always used Class AB, biased hard to run hot. That was the conventional wisdom. Many amps are still built that way, and many sound great. I contend that if they sound great, it's because of the total design implementation, and not just what the output stage's technology is. The same goes for Class D, or variations of Class D.

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