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post #6241 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 03:13 PM
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MLP = main listening position.

If you can always sit there, even a small room will be great with direct radiators. It will be like a dubbing stage. And you can get away with one sub -- placed for optimal response and EQ'ed for that seat. It is like heaven.

However, in my situation, I cannot sit there always. And I don't find the other seats acceptable for me without multiple subs and diffuse speakers for the surrounds. YMMV. And I may change my setup once quality object based sound is the norm.

I don't think my guests care either way.


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post #6242 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by uscpsycho View Post
Are you saying properly positioned monopoles will be as good/better than dipoles in a theater as small as mine?

I'm really drawn to Nathan's experience because of the similarity in size to his theater. I wonder if Nathan experimented with this when he test drove the monopoles?

BTW What is MLP?
I think he means Main Listening Position. (I was right! ... it wasn't Meridian Lossless Packing after all! )

What I'm saying is that properly positioned monopoles with object surround will more than likely sound better than dipoles in ANY room. You just have to plan and design the room carefully. There's a reason all demos for commercial and consumer Dolby Atmos and DTS-UHD have used matched monopoles.

I would still consider Silver LCR in walls for the front three, Silver Omni SE in-room's with adjustable wall brackets for the back, sides, and front wide sides (these latter speakers need to toe in horizontally and vertically, not just vertically, so that must be taken into account-- a ball swivel mount would probably be more appropriate here). Ask Triad for recommend brackets... or have them mount them when they're custom built, so you don't do something wrong like screw into a crossover board, or crack the cabinet, etc. Don't know yet about the top surrounds.

Since you're doing in-walls for the fronts, I would recommend using an acoustically transparent screen and projector. You only need a few inches from the face of the speakers for the screen material. That's why in-wall's are often used in small theaters... so you don't need to eat up a few feet for a complete false wall build.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #6243 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 03:56 PM
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Listen up!

Brett Crockett of Dolby Labs has just replied to answer some of our concerns.

Current consumer Atmos can accommodate 24 front and surround speakers plus 10 on-ceiling speakers. There are products planned that will output the full array of speaker locations.


http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/
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post #6244 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 08:37 PM
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Apologies for the beginner's question but will someone please help troubleshoot my audio problems. I've got Triads driving my HT but we recently lost sound. I can hear some 'thumps' from the subwoofer but I am not getting any fronts, center and/or surrounds and rears. At first, I thought my Marantz 8003 might have blown but if I plug headphones into the Marantz I get sound. Could this be some kind of handshake issue as there is no sound for tv, dvd, wii. etc. Surrounds and rears are buried behind acoustic columns so no access to those. Any tips for troubleshooting are greatly appreciated.

For full equipment list just check out my thread which has it on the first page. Thanks!
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post #6245 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queendvd2 View Post
Apologies for the beginner's question but will someone please help troubleshoot my audio problems. I've got Triads driving my HT but we recently lost sound. I can hear some 'thumps' from the subwoofer but I am not getting any fronts, center and/or surrounds and rears. At first, I thought my Marantz 8003 might have blown but if I plug headphones into the Marantz I get sound. Could this be some kind of handshake issue as there is no sound for tv, dvd, wii. etc. Surrounds and rears are buried behind acoustic columns so no access to those. Any tips for troubleshooting are greatly appreciated.

For full equipment list just check out my thread which has it on the first page. Thanks!
Can you take out your Marantz and put a spare, older receiver with pre-amp outs in place and hook a couple audio cords from the amps to it. You could then see if any of the Marantz's circuitry died or if it's your B&K amp.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #6246 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Can you take out your Marantz and put a spare, older receiver with pre-amp outs in place and hook a couple audio cords from the amps to it. You could then see if any of the Marantz's circuitry died or if it's your B&K amp.
Admittedly, I would likely have a tough time with that and the spider-web of cables as I had an installer put it in several years ago. I do have an older Marantz receiver though so maybe if I am feeling bold I'll try that route. If it could potentially be the Marantz though why would sound still come out when headphones are plugged in - because they don't utilize the same signal/circuitry driving the speakers?
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post #6247 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by queendvd2 View Post
Admittedly, I would likely have a tough time with that and the spider-web of cables as I had an installer put it in several years ago. I do have an older Marantz receiver though so maybe if I am feeling bold I'll try that route. If it could potentially be the Marantz though why would sound still come out when headphones are plugged in - because they don't utilize the same signal/circuitry driving the speakers?

Correct. Separate circuit.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #6248 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 09:51 PM
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Ok, thanks Dan. Being a pessimist, if is indeed the Marantz I will obviously have to go 'shopping'. I recall many recommending the Parasound but I would likely use a local installer (who incidentally did not do my original install) and they don't sell it. Here is their list of products:

Anthem
Audio Research
Ayre
BAT
Bell Canto
Classe
Esoteric
kaleidescape
Marantz (would not buy again since much criticism about being able to handle 4 ohms)
McIntosh
Meridian
NAD
Pioneer Elite
Rotel
Theta
Wadia
Yamaha (don't think that can handle 4 ohms either)

I don't want to break the bank but at the same time I want to pair the Triads accordingly.

Dan, Paul, other??? Thoughts?
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post #6249 of 6266 Old 06-27-2014, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by queendvd2 View Post
Ok, thanks Dan. Being a pessimist, if is indeed the Marantz I will obviously have to go 'shopping'. I recall many recommending the Parasound but I would likely use a local installer (who incidentally did not do my original install) and they don't sell it. Here is their list of products:

Anthem
Audio Research
Ayre
BAT
Bell Canto
Classe
Esoteric
kaleidescape
Marantz (would not buy again since much criticism about being able to handle 4 ohms)
McIntosh
Meridian
NAD
Pioneer Elite
Rotel
Theta
Wadia
Yamaha (don't think that can handle 4 ohms either)

I don't want to break the bank but at the same time I want to pair the Triads accordingly.

Dan, Paul, other??? Thoughts?
Just make sure it's the Marantz that's faulty and not the B&K. If it is the Marantz that has gone bad, then all you need is another pre-amp for now (which doesn't care what ohms a speaker is rated at... that's the amplifier), not necessarily a receiver unless you don't want to spend a lot right now. What kind of budget is right for you?

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #6250 of 6266 Old 06-28-2014, 06:24 PM
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http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ht-home-page-2

Does Triad have a line of Atmos speakers coming out? Or are they developing the OnCeiling height speakers in to addition Atmos Triad Speakers?

Quote:
Onkyo used Triad-built Atmos speakers, set up on stands at the front and back of the seating area for their 5.2.4 Atmos System.
and

Quote:
At CE Week one of the demos supposedly used proof-of-concept Triad speaker models that were Atmos ready.

I find also surpising that on Onkyo Receiver could run Triad speakers but go figure.

Hopefully Paul can comment.

Last edited by Spizz; 06-28-2014 at 06:41 PM.
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post #6251 of 6266 Old 06-28-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by queendvd2 View Post
Ok, thanks Dan. Being a pessimist, if is indeed the Marantz I will obviously have to go 'shopping'. I recall many recommending the Parasound but I would likely use a local installer (who incidentally did not do my original install) and they don't sell it. Here is their list of protducts:

Anthem
Audio Research
Ayre
BAT
Bell Canto
Classe
Esoteric
kaleidescape
Marantz (would not buy again since much criticism about being able to handle 4 ohms)
McIntosh
Meridian
NAD
Pioneer Elite
Rotel
Theta
Wadia
Yamaha (don't think that can handle 4 ohms either)

I don't want to break the bank but at the same time I want to pair the Triads accordingly.

Dan, Paul, other??? Thoughts?
Purchase separates........and........
Call, pm, or email Mike at AVS sales.......

I purchased my Halo by Parasound A31 and Marantz 8801 through Mike...........BTW, combo is stellar with Triad Gold LCR's.
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post #6252 of 6266 Old 06-28-2014, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Purchase separates........and........
Call, pm, or email Mike at AVS sales.......

I purchased my Halo by Parasound A31 and Marantz 8801 through Mike...........BTW, combo is stellar with Triad Gold LCR's.
Parasound Halo amps are definitely a great combo with Triad's.

Though I don't think the OP knows yet which is at fault: his older Marantz pre-amp or the B&K amp. That would be quite a hit to replace both. If the pre-amp's the one that needs replacing, I'd definitely wait and get a new one with even the basic first-gen Dolby Atmos decoding to try out.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #6253 of 6266 Old 06-29-2014, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ht-home-page-2

Does Triad have a line of Atmos speakers coming out? Or are they developing the OnCeiling height speakers in to addition Atmos Triad Speakers?

and

I find also surpising that on Onkyo Receiver could run Triad speakers but go figure.

Hopefully Paul can comment.
The article makes it clear that those Triad speakers were custom jobs -- a single driver to sit on top of a regular speaker, which shoots the sound up, to reflect off the ceiling. So far, all the other announced "Atmos" speakers, like those from Andrew Jones, are these "reflect off the ceiling" types. Hopefully a regular in ceiling speaker can be used to more precise effect.

As you allude to, it would likely be much better to have in or on ceiling speakers.

And the article explicitly questions whether Onkyo was using a production receiver.


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post #6254 of 6266 Old 06-29-2014, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by uscpsycho View Post
Are you saying properly positioned monopoles will be as good/better than dipoles in a theater as small as mine?

I'm really drawn to Nathan's experience because of the similarity in size to his theater. I wonder if Nathan experimented with this when he test drove the monopoles?
What I'm saying is that properly positioned monopoles with object surround will more than likely sound better than dipoles in ANY room. You just have to plan and design the room carefully. There's a reason all demos for commercial and consumer Dolby Atmos and DTS-UHD have used matched monopoles.

I would still consider Silver LCR in walls for the front three, Silver Omni SE in-room's with adjustable wall brackets for the back, sides, and front wide sides (these latter speakers need to toe in horizontally and vertically, not just vertically, so that must be taken into account-- a ball swivel mount would probably be more appropriate here). Ask Triad for recommend brackets... or have them mount them when they're custom built, so you don't do something wrong like screw into a crossover board, or crack the cabinet, etc. Don't know yet about the top surrounds.

Since you're doing in-walls for the fronts, I would recommend using an acoustically transparent screen and projector. You only need a few inches from the face of the speakers for the screen material. That's why in-wall's are often used in small theaters... so you don't need to eat up a few feet for a complete false wall build.
I meant is your opinion that monopoles would be better than dipoles in a non-object oriented theater of my size? I don't know when or if I am going to have object oriented gear so I don't want to compromise my experience today for something I may or may not do down the line. Nathan's experience in a similarly sized theater was the the dipoles outperformed monopoles for the surrounds.

I definitely plan to put the LCR behind an AT screen!

Quote:
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I find also surpising that on Onkyo Receiver could run Triad speakers but go figure.
Why shouldn't an Onkyo receiver be able to run Triad speakers?
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post #6255 of 6266 Old 06-29-2014, 07:38 PM
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I meant is your opinion that monopoles would be better than dipoles in a non-object oriented theater of my size? I don't know when or if I am going to have object oriented gear so I don't want to compromise my experience today for something I may or may not do down the line. Nathan's experience in a similarly sized theater was the the dipoles outperformed monopoles for the surrounds.

I definitely plan to put the LCR behind an AT screen!
If you never, ever plan on adding Atmos or other object based format, then yes, I would echo Nathan's recommendation for dipoles in your small room. But if you do decide to get a different processor or receiver in a little bit (by then many may have Atmos and/or DTS-UHD included just like regular Dolby and DTS nowadays)... then you might end up having to rip out what you put in and buy different surround speakers... and possibly re-position them.

The choice is yours. Build for the future... or don't.

Personally, I would choose the former over the latter. Had a discussion with one of the members here who is a professional sound mixer... and he thinks consumer Atmos, even in its early stages, is the bee's knees and will probably be purchasing one of the Denon products. And he more than likely knows firsthand how to use commercial Atmos tools for movie soundtrack engineering too.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #6256 of 6266 Old 07-01-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Let's talk existing Triad owners wanting to implement Dolby Atmos configuration into their system.

First, I'll start off with my system....

3Gold LCR up front
4 Silver LCR side surrounds for row one and two
2 Silver LCR rear surrounds
4 18" subs powered with 1800 watts each

I'm right in middle of coffered ceiling project and makes sense to wire for four VOG ceiling speakers.....coffers will have depth of 7-1/2 inches so several Triad product options available. BTW, speaking of VOG, thank God I have ten foot ceilings!

Question is timbre matching to existing Triad products. I have plenty of room for front height speaker behind false wall so many options.

Still trying to figure out since announcement about Atmos, haven't found specific locations for home theater system.
The Triad bronze in ceiling LCR may be a prime candidate for Atmos for the overhead requirements. Looking forward to more details on Atmos for the home as they become available.
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post #6257 of 6266 Old 07-01-2014, 06:53 PM
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The Triad bronze in ceiling LCR may be a prime candidate for Atmos for the overhead requirements. Looking forward to more details on Atmos for the home as they become available.

I agree Tony...........what's even better about in-ceiling Bronze is the 5-1/2 depth! I'm in the middle of building coffer ceilings which will be 7-1/2 inches deep. Four Bronze could go in ceiling behind acoustic fabric. Currently have 4 " absorption and diffusers in those coffer voids. Could easily fit four no problem. For now I'll pre-wire and wait to see what happens.

My first thought was Gold Omni SE since same tweeter as Gold LCR's.........but 8-1/2 inches deep is a no go.
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post #6258 of 6266 Old 07-01-2014, 08:30 PM
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The Triad bronze in ceiling LCR may be a prime candidate for Atmos for the overhead requirements. Looking forward to more details on Atmos for the home as they become available.
You want timbre matching. That would then be Silver in-ceilings (if you have Silver surrounds everywhere else). However, Atmos requires a wider dispersal pattern for their top surrounds than a normal monopole (I'm not talking dipole, however). No one outside of a pro-cinema brand has release a dedicated top-surround speaker that voices with previous speaker ranges.

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post #6259 of 6266 Old 07-02-2014, 06:25 AM
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Triad will be showing dedicated Atmos speakers at CEDIA.
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post #6260 of 6266 Old 07-02-2014, 08:19 AM
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Triad will be showing dedicated Atmos speakers at CEDIA.
Hi Dawn,

Would that mean more than just speakers with built-in top firing drivers (like mountable on-ceiling and in-ceiling models that timbre match to your other speakers and meet Atmos dispersal requirements; on-wall and in-wall wide dispersal monopole surrounds)?

Thanks!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #6261 of 6266 Old 07-02-2014, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
Triad will be showing dedicated Atmos speakers at CEDIA.
Ok Dawn, I'll bite.........what have you heard? Can you at least indicate depth? I'm at the stage I can change depth of coffers........I really need to know........

Soffits are faced and I'm preparing for coffer nailing plates on ceiling......I'm desperate!

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post #6262 of 6266 Old 07-03-2014, 04:06 AM
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Hi Dawn,

Would that mean more than just speakers with built-in top firing drivers (like mountable on-ceiling and in-ceiling models that timbre match to your other speakers and meet Atmos dispersal requirements; on-wall and in-wall wide dispersal monopole surrounds)?

Thanks!
Can't say anything more at the moment, except that there will be several Triad implementations, including in-ceiling products and "add-on modules." And, like other Triad designs, size and color customization will be available.
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Ok Dawn, I'll bite.........what have you heard? Can you at least indicate depth? I'm at the stage I can change depth of coffers........I really need to know........

Soffits are faced and I'm preparing for coffer nailing plates on ceiling......I'm desperate!

PM me and I'll see what I can do.
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post #6264 of 6266 Old 07-03-2014, 06:09 PM
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Just make sure it's the Marantz that's faulty and not the B&K. If it is the Marantz that has gone bad, then all you need is another pre-amp for now (which doesn't care what ohms a speaker is rated at... that's the amplifier), not necessarily a receiver unless you don't want to spend a lot right now. What kind of budget is right for you?
I just checked my paperwork and it looks like I'm right outside the warranty period (5+) for the Marantz . Still not sure which separate it is as I haven't had time to fully investigate. On the bright side, I have a friend who has an idle Classe amp (only 2 channels though) lying around so I could potentially use that to test as well. Any thoughts on which one would be easier to swap out? I was thinking with the amp, I could try just one speaker? Again, this was a custom install and I'm no expert so I need to minimize taking out cables.

Budget - would really like to stay under the 2k mark. Regarding another poster's recommendation to purchase through AVS - in fact, I purchased all of my original equipment through them but I need a local dealer to install the replacement separate (which they won't do if I don't purchase from them).
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post #6265 of 6266 Old 07-03-2014, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by queendvd2 View Post
I just checked my paperwork and it looks like I'm right outside the warranty period (5+) for the Marantz . Still not sure which separate it is as I haven't had time to fully investigate. On the bright side, I have a friend who has an idle Classe amp (only 2 channels though) lying around so I could potentially use that to test as well. Any thoughts on which one would be easier to swap out? I was thinking with the amp, I could try just one speaker? Again, this was a custom install and I'm no expert so I need to minimize taking out cables.

Budget - would really like to stay under the 2k mark. Regarding another poster's recommendation to purchase through AVS - in fact, I purchased all of my original equipment through them but I need a local dealer to install the replacement separate (which they won't do if I don't purchase from them).
Pull a couple cables (probably left and right) from your pre-amp and plug them into your friend's Classe amp and plug the corresponding speaker wires into the amp as well. Don't change any settings on the Marantz and play a movie just like you did when you had this problem. It doesn't know you changed amplifiers. Then see if the sound comes out loud and clear in those two speakers. If not... it's the Marantz.

Then we can look at a suitable replacement.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #6266 of 6266 Old 07-04-2014, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
Triad will be showing dedicated Atmos speakers at CEDIA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
Can't say anything more at the moment, except that there will be several Triad implementations, including in-ceiling products and "add-on modules." And, like other Triad designs, size and color customization will be available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post
The Triad bronze in ceiling LCR may be a prime candidate for Atmos for the overhead requirements. Looking forward to more details on Atmos for the home as they become available.
Had a nice conversation with Bill Ruark at Triad today regarding Dolby Atmos. Product specific matching of my current system with Atmos was discussed along with what current Triad products could be used for my specific application.

What's great, Triad will attempt to contact Dolby to find out detailed specifics and get back to me. We discussed custom possibilities specifically for my application.........talk about customer service.

I should know more details next week and disseminate information I receive. Should include detailed info on where, what and how.
nathan_h and grtuck like this.
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