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post #6421 of 6442 Old 09-10-2014, 09:23 AM
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1. yes (dolby is releasing another installer white paper this week at cedia with more info)
2. probably. your side surrounds are in the right place for it (for row 1) though very close to the seats. if row 2 gets used a lot, consider a second set of side surrounds there.
3. dolby in an interview said they don't use side surrounds in atmos upconversion. if atmos is your goal, ceilings are better than heights, as well.

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post #6422 of 6442 Old 09-10-2014, 10:45 AM
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thanks for the info so far. the second row are for guests. i really only care about the first row 2 seats. i thought about a second set of sides but my door is right there for the one side.

ok i didn't know that about wides. so only discrete 5 channel or 7 channel plus subs and ceiling speakers. the wides would only be used if i used on of the other surround formats, but correct me if i'm wrong there are no plans for true discrete wide or height channel mixes correct. it's all processed via processor? so the wides or hieghts if pushing an admos surround movie would only be mixed from the side or front channels?

thanks again everyone.

should i even bother wiring for wides then?

jimi
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post #6423 of 6442 Old 09-10-2014, 11:03 AM
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You may want to ask in the Atmos for home thread.

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post #6424 of 6442 Old 09-10-2014, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post
thanks for the info so far. the second row are for guests. i really only care about the first row 2 seats. i thought about a second set of sides but my door is right there for the one side.

ok i didn't know that about wides. so only discrete 5 channel or 7 channel plus subs and ceiling speakers. the wides would only be used if i used on of the other surround formats, but correct me if i'm wrong there are no plans for true discrete wide or height channel mixes correct. it's all processed via processor? so the wides or hieghts if pushing an admos surround movie would only be mixed from the side or front channels?

thanks again everyone.

should i even bother wiring for wides then?

jimi
"Wides" for Atmos get bandied about in the wrong way these days. They are frontal side surrounds that fill in the gaps between the traditional sides and screen wall speakers just like in the cinema Atmos layout and are angled toward the Main Listening Position (MLP). That's why the Dolby Surround upmixer doesn't work with "wide" speakers. There are no traditional "wide" speaker locations with Atmos like DTS Neo:X or ProLogic IIz or Audyssey DSX post processing of the past. Dolby Surround upmixing works with the Atmos speaker layout, not traditional home theater layouts. In room's on swivel or angle mounts may work better here.

This also helps create a very basic side-wall pan-through array. The first for any home theater format.

If you get a first gen mainstream Atmos receiver or pre-amp that can do 9.1.2... or are considering 7.1.4 but want to keep your future upgrade options open, then you want to have front side surrounds... or at least wire for them.

The pairs of ceiling speakers (timbre matched) should be in line with your front left and right speakers, if you are using traditional angle locations of about 30 degrees. If the on-ceiling or in-ceiling speakers do not have at least a 90 degree dispersion pattern then they should be angled towards the MLP and not be firing straight down.

Here is the first basic Atmos installation guide:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...guidelines.pdf
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post #6425 of 6442 Old 09-10-2014, 01:21 PM
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Now I'm confused so is thier front side channels with atmos. Meaning the jacks for the I puts on a receiver that is capable of atmos say front wides? Is thier actually channels in the mix for these speakers or are they just info from the rear sides or rear speakers? That's where I'm confused. I want to make sure I have a true layout. I will deff have the traditional 7 channels along with subs and with four ceiling speakers (I can't do more than that even if I should cause of two rows of seating). But I want to make sure I wire for other speakers if need be. Wides/heights/ or whatever.

So pretty much is atoms capable of 9. whatever vs just 7 or 5 channel. . .

how would the jacks be listed on the pre/pro?

jim

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post #6426 of 6442 Old 09-10-2014, 08:12 PM
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The paper Dan linked to shows where to put wide channels. This implies Atmos can use hem. (It is Dolby Surround, upconverting non-Atmos soundtracks, that won't make use of the wides.)

(update, i was wrong: Near as I can tell no receivers with Atmos announced yet can use the wides but Atmos is capable of using them.)

Eventually the concept of channels becomes irrelevant with a full Atmos system.

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post #6427 of 6442 Old 09-10-2014, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
The paper Dan linked to shows where to put wide channels. This implies Atmos can use hem. (It is Dolby Surround, upconverting non-Atmos soundtracks, that won't make use of the side surrounds.)

Near as I can tell no receivers with Atmos announced yet can use the wides but Atmos is capable of using them.

Eventually the concept of channels becomes irrelevant with a full Atmos system.
Only the upper tier "mainstream" receivers and pre-amp/processors that can do 9.1.2 will allow for front side surrounds (what a lot of people keep calling wides, though they no longer are) at the expense of one pair of top surrounds. Other high end processors will allow for most or all of the 24.1.10 layout, so you don't have to compromise one for the other. Though you do have to be practically rich.

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post #6428 of 6442 Old 09-11-2014, 09:57 AM
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Cedia 2014

Triad Prototypes


Aside from the new InRoom Bronze LRH Atmos enabled speaker (shipping in a couple of weeks), Triad is showing some interesting Atmos prototypes.


The first is a n OnWall Bronze Atmos speaker with Atmos drivers on top (pictures 1 and 2). It's in testing at Dolby labs right now and will hopefully be available within 6 months. In picture 3 you can see a prototype for a Triad Bronze InWall Atmos speaker. This one is further out, more like a year.


The Dolby booth demo is courtesy of Triad, with a full compliment of Bronze speakers, including IC Bronze/8 LCRs for the ceiling Atmos channels, as well as the new Bronze LRH Atmos models used as an A/B with the ceiling offerings. I was very impressed with the demo and excited to see that existing Triad speakers (in-ceilings) worked so well as Atmos speakers.
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post #6429 of 6442 Old 09-11-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
Triad Prototypes


Aside from the new InRoom Bronze LRH Atmos enabled speaker (shipping in a couple of weeks), Triad is showing some interesting Atmos prototypes.


The first is a n OnWall Bronze Atmos speaker with Atmos drivers on top (pictures 1 and 2). It's in testing at Dolby labs right now and will hopefully be available within 6 months. In picture 3 you can see a prototype for a Triad Bronze InWall Atmos speaker. This one is further out, more like a year.


The Dolby booth demo is courtesy of Triad, with a full compliment of Bronze speakers, including IC Bronze/8 LCRs for the ceiling Atmos channels, as well as the new Bronze LRH Atmos models used as an A/B with the ceiling offerings. I was very impressed with the demo and excited to see that existing Triad speakers (in-ceilings) worked so well as Atmos speakers.
That's super interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I'd love to see a photo of HOW they are positioning the InCeiling Bronze LCR's. Are they in the recommended spots or further forward and back because they are angled?

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post #6430 of 6442 Old 09-11-2014, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
The Dolby booth demo is courtesy of Triad, with a full compliment of Bronze speakers, including IC Bronze/8 LCRs for the ceiling Atmos channels, as well as the new Bronze LRH Atmos models used as an A/B with the ceiling offerings. I was very impressed with the demo and excited to see that existing Triad speakers (in-ceilings) worked so well as Atmos speakers.

That is interesting - I would have expected the 45 degree angle on the IC Bronze/8 LCRs to mess with the object sound placement in Atmos - how does that work?
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post #6431 of 6442 Old 09-12-2014, 06:22 AM
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That's super interesting. Thanks for sharing.

I'd love to see a photo of HOW they are positioning the InCeiling Bronze LCR's. Are they in the recommended spots or further forward and back because they are angled?
That's not an easy thing to do. Dolby is running demos back to back and I don't think they would like it very much if I asked them to stop and put the lights on to take photos. :-)

I can tell you that from what I saw, the IC Bronze LCRs were positioned fairly close to the seating positions and not closer to the front like they are normally used.

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post #6432 of 6442 Old 09-12-2014, 06:25 AM
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That is interesting - I would have expected the 45 degree angle on the IC Bronze/8 LCRs to mess with the object sound placement in Atmos - how does that work?
It worked very well. Even more interesting was how great the IR Bronze Atmos enabled speakers did. Bouncing of the ceiling was very effective.

A point to note: if you have ceilings taller than 14-15 feet I would highly suggest in-ceilings.

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post #6433 of 6442 Old 09-12-2014, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
That's not an easy thing to do. Dolby is running demos back to back and I don't think they would like it very much if I asked them to stop and put the lights on to take photos. :-)

I can tell you that from what I saw, the IC Bronze LCRs were positioned fairly close to the seating positions and not closer to the front like they are normally used.
That makes sense. The challenge with the IC Bronze LCR would be that the dispersion is not as wide, so placement is more critical -- and might only be ideal for one or two rows.

Were they using four or two in ceiling speakers?

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It worked very well. Even more interesting was how great the IR Bronze Atmos enabled speakers did. Bouncing of the ceiling was very effective.

A point to note: if you have ceilings taller than 14-15 feet I would highly suggest in-ceilings.
Those are of interest to me. The logical replacement for my side surround speakers (which are silver surrounds) would be on wall LCR bronze since my front LCR are bronze and my rear are bronze. So getting those atmos-on-wall bronze could kill two birds with one stone, though I have a treated ceiling to contend with and I actually have no constraints on installing ceiling speakers....

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post #6434 of 6442 Old 09-13-2014, 07:41 AM
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That makes sense. The challenge with the IC Bronze LCR would be that the dispersion is not as wide, so placement is more critical -- and might only be ideal for one or two rows.

Were they using four or two in ceiling speakers?



Those are of interest to me. The logical replacement for my side surround speakers (which are silver surrounds) would be on wall LCR bronze since my front LCR are bronze and my rear are bronze. So getting those atmos-on-wall bronze could kill two birds with one stone, though I have a treated ceiling to contend with and I actually have no constraints on installing ceiling speakers....
They were using 4 in-ceiling speakers. Had over 20 seats in about 4 rows.

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post #6435 of 6442 Old 09-13-2014, 08:15 PM
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The Triads used in the Dolby Atmos demo were very, very good. The up firing element is hit and miss, depending on the content. I've noticed that just like the Andrew Jones Pioneer speakers, you need height effects with a distinct height transfer cue or Doppler effect for the enabled speakers to work their best. Otherwise, they sound like a good DSP mode you'd get on a Yamaha or other receiver.

Real overheads are what you should be shooting for. No if's and's or but's about it. Yes, I was at CEDIA and this was very obvious in soooooooo many demos.

Sound quality vs. price... I must give the nod to Andrew Jones. However, I still strongly suggest people buy American. It may cost a bit more, but the benefits far outweigh the difference.
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post #6436 of 6442 Old 09-13-2014, 10:35 PM
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Video from CEDIA 2014.
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post #6437 of 6442 Old 09-15-2014, 12:03 PM
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Does anybody know if InWall Gold LCR's can be mounted upside down? I'd like to use them as Atmos/Auro ceiling channels, but don't want to damage them. The bronzes wont be able to match my current setup (Gold LCR's in two width and six surround positions) in timbre or output. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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post #6438 of 6442 Old Yesterday, 05:01 AM
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IW Gold LCRs weigh a hefty 45 pounds each, and I'm not sure I would feel comfortable putting them in the ceiling. In addition, that configuration isn't the best fit for Atmos because the speakers should be angled toward the listeners position.

A better selection would be the InCeiling Gold/8 Omni SE.
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post #6439 of 6442 Old Yesterday, 05:29 PM
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Well, CEDIA is over and being told Triad would have perfect match to my existing system for Atmos......well, I'm a little disappointed.

Triad in-ceiling Bronze could work for my front, but dispersion is not ideal covering 7 seat configuration. My real issue is how to direct sound for rear seating which Triad in-ceiling Bronze definitely won't work.



As the photo shows, first row would be fine with 45 degree baffle from IC Bronze........not so much for rear. To have proper dispersion, I have to have 90 degree conical dispersion........no Triad product will suffice for rear ceiling.

For now, I'm waiting for Roger Dressler to set up his system.......he'll be using Tannoy concentric drivers ie coaxials which would be much better for my application.

I have thought about possibly using In-wall 4 Bonze for rear ceiling......but then again, dispersion, dispersion.

BTW, Dan......thanks for helping with CEDIA. Came down to 4-5 hrs on show floor was not enough time......seeing my Daughter in Boston was more important. Thanks again Dan for your help.......I owe you!
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Well, CEDIA is over and being told Triad would have perfect match to my existing system for Atmos......well, I'm a little disappointed.

Triad in-ceiling Bronze could work for my front, but dispersion is not ideal covering 7 seat configuration. My real issue is how to direct sound for rear seating which Triad in-ceiling Bronze definitely won't work.



As the photo shows, first row would be fine with 45 degree baffle from IC Bronze........not so much for rear. To have proper dispersion, I have to have 90 degree conical dispersion........no Triad product will suffice for rear ceiling.

For now, I'm waiting for Roger Dressler to set up his system.......he'll be using Tannoy concentric drivers ie coaxials which would be much better for my application.

I have thought about possibly using In-wall 4 Bonze for rear ceiling......but then again, dispersion, dispersion.

BTW, Dan......thanks for helping with CEDIA. Came down to 4-5 hrs on show floor was not enough time......seeing my Daughter in Boston was more important. Thanks again Dan for your help.......I owe you!
I agree doublewing11, I'm quite disappointed myself. I was hoping for a better option for my build too.
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post #6441 of 6442 Old Yesterday, 05:47 PM
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I agree doublewing11, I'm quite disappointed myself. I was hoping for a better option for my build too.
Yep......

I wonder why those 4 small 2" Seas drivers on top of the new Atmos enabled Bronze can't be used as add ons for ceiling ie. in-ceiling add on modules.

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post #6442 of 6442 Old Yesterday, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Well, CEDIA is over and being told Triad would have perfect match to my existing system for Atmos......well, I'm a little disappointed.

Triad in-ceiling Bronze could work for my front, but dispersion is not ideal covering 7 seat configuration. My real issue is how to direct sound for rear seating which Triad in-ceiling Bronze definitely won't work.



As the photo shows, first row would be fine with 45 degree baffle from IC Bronze........not so much for rear. To have proper dispersion, I have to have 90 degree conical dispersion........no Triad product will suffice for rear ceiling.

For now, I'm waiting for Roger Dressler to set up his system.......he'll be using Tannoy concentric drivers ie coaxials which would be much better for my application.

I have thought about possibly using In-wall 4 Bonze for rear ceiling......but then again, dispersion, dispersion.

BTW, Dan......thanks for helping with CEDIA. Came down to 4-5 hrs on show floor was not enough time......seeing my Daughter in Boston was more important. Thanks again Dan for your help.......I owe you!
Hey, not a problem! Glad to help. Too bad we couldn't meet up... I ended up being there for 2 1/2 days. Audio nirvana!!!

Talk to Steve Colburn, product developer at Triad. Great guy! Met him at the Triad booth and we chatted a bit. The more they hear about the special needs of their customers for their unique Atmos installations, the more likely they'll come up with a solution for you and others.

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