Triad Owner's Thread - Page 241 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7201 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Why doesn't Triad have a timbre matched solution for 3D audio?


We need speakers that will work in all surround locations, use the same drivers as the LCRs and can go to 105dB peaks at the main listening position!
Yes. I know we are in the early innings, but by now I would have thought there would be more options for 3D audio speakers from multiple manufacturers. There were some rumors here and elsewhere recently about Triad bring such a speaker to the market, but not sure if or when that will be. Its sure a tough time trying to plan a room. The speaker layout is holding up the works!
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post #7202 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
The speaker layout is holding up the works!
This is not the case...........speaker layout is there......it's crystal clear. The problem is finding currently available speakers which can be used in those locations.

As far as hysteria concerning DTS: X..........implement Atmos and you are golden for both!
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post #7203 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
This is not the case...........speaker layout is there......it's crystal clear. The problem is finding currently available speakers which can be used in those locations.

As far as hysteria concerning DTS: X..........implement Atmos and you are golden for both!
Well we have Procella who have their "Identical Voices" concept (as in they voice their speakers to sound the same, so you can use them interchangeably. AKA timbre matched). Take the P6 for example, you can use P6 for LCR, all surrounds and ceiling. Or you can mix a P610 for more output with P6s or their lower output P5.


We also have KEF, with their CI3160 / CI5160 for LCR and then the CI3160 or CI200RR for surrounds. Heck you can even mix and match with the in room R series as they all use the same drivers.


Triad and many other manufacturers are behind the game on this one.

Acoustic Frontiers: design and creation of high performance listening rooms, home theaters and project studios for discerning audio/video enthusiasts.
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post #7204 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
This is not the case...........speaker layout is there......it's crystal clear. The problem is finding currently available speakers which can be used in those locations.

As far as hysteria concerning DTS: X..........implement Atmos and you are golden for both!
The problem is that Atmos dictates only a few, very specific speaker layouts. It specifies overheads at the expense of Wides and Heights, (at least in the pre/pro's that are affordable to the less than "one percenters.") For those of us with Wides and/or Heights, (who don't want to give up said Wides and/or Heights), DTS:X was hopefully going to be the savior.

Now... we just don't know.

Craig

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post #7205 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
This is not the case...........speaker layout is there......it's crystal clear. The problem is finding currently available speakers which can be used in those locations.

As far as hysteria concerning DTS: X..........implement Atmos and you are golden for both!
The problem is that Atmos dictates only a few, very specific speaker layouts. It specifies overheads at the expense of Wides and Heights, (at least in the pre/pro's that are affordable to the less than "one percenters.") For those of us with Wides and/or Heights, (who don't want to give up said Wides and/or Heights), DTS:X was hopefully going to be the savior.

Now... we just don't know.

Craig
Atmos for home can utilize both wides and heights. Not just in the mega bucks processors. You have access to up to 9 of the 24 listener level speaker positions and all 10 overhead positions (although only 4 at a time). It's more flexible than you are implying.

The real limitation is the 11ch max simultaneous processing. But 7.1.4 or 9.1.2 is plenty for the vast majority of HTs.

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post #7206 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Atmos for home can utilize both wides and heights. Not just in the mega bucks processors. You have access to up to 9 of the 24 listener level speaker positions and all 10 overhead positions (although only 4 at a time). It's more flexible than you are implying.

The real limitation is the 11ch max simultaneous processing. But 7.1.4 or 9.1.2 is plenty for the vast majority of HTs.
OK. Let's say I wanted to add overheads to my current system of 7.1 plus Wides. How would I do that with any of the current Atmos receivers or pre/pros under, say $5K, (assuming that I also wanted to continue to use Audyssey XT32?)

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post #7207 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Atmos for home can utilize both wides and heights. Not just in the mega bucks processors. You have access to up to 9 of the 24 listener level speaker positions and all 10 overhead positions (although only 4 at a time). It's more flexible than you are implying.

The real limitation is the 11ch max simultaneous processing. But 7.1.4 or 9.1.2 is plenty for the vast majority of HTs.
OK. Let's say I wanted to add overheads to my current system of 7.1 plus Wides. How would I do that with any of the current Atmos receivers or pre/pros under, say $5K, (assuming that I also wanted to continue to use Audyssey XT32?)

Craig
The Denon 5200 or Marantz 7009 can handle that at ~$1500 street price.

Simplest would be add a pair of overheads (eg Top Middle) and you have a 9.1.2 Atmos setup. Native Atmos will render objects through the wides for lateral pans. DOLBY Surround upmix won't use the wides so you'd get 7.1.2 upmix, or you can use legacy upmix like DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX to activate the wides.

A bit more complicated -- you can actually connect and calibrate up to 13 speakers (7.1 + wides + 4 overheads/heights) but only if you have at least 4 channels of external amplification to supplement the 9 internal amps. The active speakers (up to 11) will depend on the surround mode. Since the Front Height position can be used by nearly any upmixer, many people have gone with a FH+TM layout which when upmixing legacy 5.1/7.1 content gives you the option of 7.1.4 DSU (wides are silent) or 11ch NeoX/DSX (wides + heights, top middle is silent) depending on your preference.
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post #7208 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
The problem is that Atmos dictates only a few, very specific speaker layouts. It specifies overheads at the expense of Wides and Heights, (at least in the pre/pro's that are affordable to the less than "one percenters.") For those of us with Wides and/or Heights, (who don't want to give up said Wides and/or Heights), DTS:X was hopefully going to be the savior.

Now... we just don't know.

Craig

Heights and wides are soooooo yesterday!

On a serious note:

You bring up a good point Craig........and I have no answer. From what I've been told by a very good, reliable source, Atmos and DTS: X layouts will work together fine.........so I'm going to implement Atmos.........and not worry about DTS: X.
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post #7209 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
OK. Let's say I wanted to add overheads to my current system of 7.1 plus Wides. How would I do that with any of the current Atmos receivers or pre/pros under, say $5K, (assuming that I also wanted to continue to use Audyssey XT32?)

Craig
You can't..........and DSU is not the answer. Discrete surround is focus of object audio........DSU just sends everything up and out......definitely not idea of OA intent.
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post #7210 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
The problem is that Atmos dictates only a few, very specific speaker layouts. It specifies overheads at the expense of Wides and Heights, (at least in the pre/pro's that are affordable to the less than "one percenters.") For those of us with Wides and/or Heights, (who don't want to give up said Wides and/or Heights), DTS:X was hopefully going to be the savior.

Now... we just don't know.

Craig
My feeling is that DTS will wind up (either now or in the future) favoring wides and heights (front heights, wide heights, side surround heights, rear surround heights) with an optional VOG, over the Atmos top/middle/rear heights positions. I'm trying to design my room to cover all the basis. I may go with front heights, top front and top middle (not enough separation to do top rears due to needing to put my rear surrounds high enough to clear the 2nd row - only have 7.75' ceilings) and you can be sure I will be prewiring for heights over all the 7.1 channels at a minimum.
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post #7211 of 7228 Unread Yesterday, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The Denon 5200 or Marantz 7009 can handle that at ~$1500 street price.

Simplest would be add a pair of overheads (eg Top Middle) and you have a 9.1.2 Atmos setup. Native Atmos will render objects through the wides for lateral pans. DOLBY Surround upmix won't use the wides so you'd get 7.1.2 upmix, or you can use legacy upmix like DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX to activate the wides.

A bit more complicated -- you can actually connect and calibrate up to 13 speakers (7.1 + wides + 4 overheads/heights) but only if you have at least 4 channels of external amplification to supplement the 9 internal amps. The active speakers (up to 11) will depend on the surround mode. Since the Front Height position can be used by nearly any upmixer, many people have gone with a FH+TM layout which when upmixing legacy 5.1/7.1 content gives you the option of 7.1.4 DSU (wides are silent) or 11ch NeoX/DSX (wides + heights, top middle is silent) depending on your preference.
OK, so I can add a "pair" of overheads to my 9.1 system and get Dolby Atmos... sometimes... with some content. What I can't do with the current technology is add 4 overheads to my 7.1 + Wides system... and use all the speakers at the same time. DTS:X was "supposed" to be speaker layout agnostic and allow this sort of thing. Now, it's looking like that is not going to be, at least in the 1st generation.

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Heights and wides are soooooo yesterday!
Just yesterday, I listened to my 9.3 system with DTS Neo:X and it sounded pretty F'n good... very immersive and eerily holographic... at least in the "listener-level" soundstage. I am hard-pressed to see the benefit of adding overhead speakers.

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On a serious note:

You bring up a good point Craig........and I have no answer. From what I've been told by a very good, reliable source, Atmos and DTS: X layouts will work together fine.........so I'm going to implement Atmos.........and not worry about DTS: X.
I am so content with my current system that I have very low motivation to move beyond it. I plan to wait for the dust to settle before I make any movement towards "3D" audio and/or 4K video. I will wait for Dolby, DTS, Auro 3D, HDMI and HDCP to work out the details, and for more content in ANY of these formats to become available, before I pull the trigger. I have been an early adopter often enough to know the ritual by now.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
OK, so I can add a "pair" of overheads to my 9.1 system and get Dolby Atmos... sometimes... with some content. What I can't do with the current technology is add 4 overheads to my 7.1 + Wides system... and use all the speakers at the same time. DTS:X was "supposed" to be speaker layout agnostic and allow this sort of thing. Now, it's looking like that is not going to be, at least in the 1st generation.



Just yesterday, I listened to my 9.3 system with DTS Neo:X and it sounded pretty F'n good... very immersive and eerily holographic... at least in the "listener-level" soundstage. I am hard-pressed to see the benefit of adding overhead speakers.


I am so content with my current system that I have very low motivation to move beyond it. I plan to wait for the dust to settle before I make any movement towards "3D" audio and/or 4K video. I will wait for Dolby, DTS, Auro 3D, HDMI and HDCP to work out the details, and for more content in ANY of these formats to become available, before I pull the trigger. I have been an early adopter often enough to know the ritual by now.

Good luck.

Craig
Wise direction for sure..........

BTW, was joking on "So yesterday".........sarcasm.
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What I can't do with the current technology is add 4 overheads to my 7.1 + Wides system... and use all the speakers at the same time. DTS:X was "supposed" to be speaker layout agnostic and allow this sort of thing. Now, it's looking like that is not going to be, at least in the 1st generation.
That's the 11ch limitation I already noted. It has nothing to do with layout support or different formats -- DTS:X just like Atmos has to squeeze into the existing 11ch platforms that are the current tech. Being layout agnostic doesn't mean it changes a fundamental limitation in the processor.

If future affordable processors allow for 13 or 15 channel support, Atmos will be able to utilize it just like DTS:X. There's very little real difference between the two as far as the end user is concerned, just like TrueHD vs DTS-MA.
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Wise direction for sure..........

BTW, was joking on "So yesterday".........sarcasm.
Knew that. Hence the



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Any thoughts on the suitability of those older Silver/4 Omni in walls for LCR?
Getting back to your original question on this thread, ^^^ I would have some concern about using Triad in-walls, or most any in-walls for that matter, for the L/R speakers in an HT environment. In-walls can't be toe'd in like in-room speakers, at least not in their standard in-wall configuration. They pretty much have to be aimed straight forward. Therefore, there is no easy way to use their inherent dispersion characteristics optimally for the majority of listening positions.

For example, if the left speaker is aimed straight forward, it's dispersion may adequately cover the left and possibly the center LP's, but the right LP will be too far outside the dispersion pattern for adequate coverage, particularly in the mids and highs. If you could toe the left speaker in towards the LP, the right LP would get better coverage. However, with a "fixed" in-wall, straight forward mounting position, toe-in would not be possible.

Bottom line, the inability to toe-in an in-wall speaker would be a huge stumbling block for me. I would want the ability to mount an in-wall speaker in a baffle wall where that whole baffle wall could be aimed at the LP before I would give serious consideration to an in-wall LCR speaker.

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Getting back to your original question on this thread, ^^^ I would have some concern about using Triad in-walls, or most any in-walls for that matter, for the L/R speakers in an HT environment. In-walls can't be toe'd in like in-room speakers, at least not in their standard in-wall configuration. They pretty much have to be aimed straight forward. Therefore, there is no easy way to use their inherent dispersion characteristics optimally for the majority of listening positions.

For example, if the left speaker is aimed straight forward, it's dispersion may adequately cover the left and possibly the center LP's, but the right LP will be too far outside the dispersion pattern for adequate coverage, particularly in the mids and highs. If you could toe the left speaker in towards the LP, the right LP would get better coverage. However, with a "fixed" in-wall, straight forward mounting position, toe-in would not be possible.

Bottom line, the inability to toe-in an in-wall speaker would be a huge stumbling block for me. I would want the ability to mount an in-wall speaker in a baffle wall where that whole baffle wall could be aimed at the LP before I would give serious consideration to an in-wall LCR speaker.

Craig
Craig - Are you using an AT screen? If so you could build a baffle wall, and put the in-walls in there. And of course have the angles designed in the baffle as desired.
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Getting back to your original question on this thread, ^^^ I would have some concern about using Triad in-walls, or most any in-walls for that matter, for the L/R speakers in an HT environment. In-walls can't be toe'd in like in-room speakers, at least not in their standard in-wall configuration. They pretty much have to be aimed straight forward. Therefore, there is no easy way to use their inherent dispersion characteristics optimally for the majority of listening positions.

For example, if the left speaker is aimed straight forward, it's dispersion may adequately cover the left and possibly the center LP's, but the right LP will be too far outside the dispersion pattern for adequate coverage, particularly in the mids and highs. If you could toe the left speaker in towards the LP, the right LP would get better coverage. However, with a "fixed" in-wall, straight forward mounting position, toe-in would not be possible.

Bottom line, the inability to toe-in an in-wall speaker would be a huge stumbling block for me. I would want the ability to mount an in-wall speaker in a baffle wall where that whole baffle wall could be aimed at the LP before I would give serious consideration to an in-wall LCR speaker.

Craig
Unless you do a baffle wall with angled wings.

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The problem is that Atmos dictates only a few, very specific speaker layouts. It specifies overheads at the expense of Wides and Heights, (at least in the pre/pro's that are affordable to the less than "one percenters.") For those of us with Wides and/or Heights, (who don't want to give up said Wides and/or Heights), DTS:X was hopefully going to be the savior.

Now... we just don't know.

Craig
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Thanks for the feedback all. As enticing as it sounds a baffle wall is not on the short term to do list. That's not something I want to half ass on a shoestring budget and f up.

However Craig brings up a good point about L/R toe in. I'll probably end up with in room speakers for this reason and just go in wall for the CC. The whole trigger for this was the idea of getting the CC in the center of the screen instead of having to place it low below a non AT screen and angle it way up.

The goal here is a "stepping stone" setup that will make for movie night fun until funds allow a more serious build out. I'm coming from a compromised 5.1.2 living room setup with a 50" plasma and severe volume constraints so it's still going to be a big step forward, but my expectations are realistic. And minimal up front investment means less pain removing components when I engage in future upgrades.
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@batpig IIRC from your original post you have access to the studs on the back of the screen wall. How about you add some 2x6 shelves between the studs and mount a set of In-Room speakers on the shelves behind your AT screen. That way you can toe them to your hearts content and they will still be out of sight.
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Unless you do a baffle wall with angled wings.

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Check out the posts from Brolic Beast. He has just posted a custom baffle wall designed by Nyal at Acoustic Frontiers. Looks absolutely amazing. That man has a very talented design vision.
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Check out the posts from Brolic Beast. He has just posted a custom baffle wall designed by Nyal at Acoustic Frontiers. Looks absolutely amazing. That man has a very talented design vision.
Yes, he is putting together a very nice theater. Have seen the thread and talked to him many times regarding my baffle wall/speaker build I did last summer: Baffle wall build using Beyma TPL-150H
Pages 7 and 8 have most of the pictures.

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Craig - Are you using an AT screen? If so you could build a baffle wall, and put the in-walls in there. And of course have the angles designed in the baffle as desired.
Please check the link in my signature to see my system. I use an AT screen, but my L/R's are placed outside the screen borders. I don't use in-walls... I use Platinum In-Room LCR's and a Platinum CC, (the CC is the only speaker behind the AT screen.)

Also, I mentioned a baffle wall in my post. If I were using in-wall speakers, the only way I would do so would be in an angled baffle wall.

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post #7224 of 7228 Unread Today, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgoering View Post
@batpig IIRC from your original post you have access to the studs on the back of the screen wall. How about you add some 2x6 shelves between the studs and mount a set of In-Room speakers on the shelves behind your AT screen. That way you can toe them to your hearts content and they will still be out of sight.
Definitely a possibility -- so to be clear, you are suggesting I effectively create a "false wall" by pushing the AT screen forward from the wall, far enough to sit speakers on shelves behind the screen?

Or are you suggesting actually building sort of "alcove" shelfs into the wall itself, so the speakers would be recessed into the wall a bit with the screen flush to the wall?

In either scenario I'd have to consider the acoustics of having the speakers that close to a boundary behind them. I imagine Triad speakers (being sealed enclosures) are designed to work well near boundaries though.

If it helps any, I'm actually planning to have the L/R mains outside the screen borders.

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post #7225 of 7228 Unread Today, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Definitely a possibility -- so to be clear, you are suggesting I effectively create a "false wall" by pushing the AT screen forward from the wall, far enough to sit speakers on shelves behind the screen?

Or are you suggesting actually building sort of "alcove" shelfs into the wall itself, so the speakers would be recessed into the wall a bit with the screen flush to the wall?

In either scenario I'd have to consider the acoustics of having the speakers that close to a boundary behind them. I imagine Triad speakers (being sealed enclosures) are designed to work well near boundaries though.

If it helps any, I'm actually planning to have the L/R mains outside the screen borders.
My thought is if you can get to the studs (ie. the back of the wall is unfinished) just cut a 2x6 or 2x8 to fit between the studs. I seems the closer to the screen you could put them the better. But would have to analyze that vs. shelves behind the wall with REW or something to determine best room response.

Your solution of a "false wall" by relocating the screen forward would probably work too. But it will decrease your room size, push your MLP back, etc.

Let us know what you decide

Edit: I just revisited your original post and looked at the photos again. Is the screen wall the exterior wall (I think I see a window there)? If so disregard most of my last few posts and go with the speakers left & right of the screen unless you really want to hide them. If you really want them hidden the false wall and shelves would be your best bet.

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My thought is if you can get to the studs (ie. the back of the wall is unfinished) just cut a 2x6 or 2x8 to fit between the studs. I seems the closer to the screen you could put them the better.
I'm sorry but I'm still unclear what you mean by adding wood between the studs. Are you suggesting I recess the speakers into the wall? In other words, building a "shelf" between the studs to sit the speaker on, and cutting a rectangular hole in the drywall that the speaker fires through? And if I understand you correctly the point of this would be to give me effectively "in wall" speakers but allow me to toe in the L/R mains, correct?

This is the back of the screen wall viewed from the attic, one small potential issue is that the slope of the roof means that the left front speaker (other side of the brick chimney in this photo) will probably be above the roofline in what is, at that point, an exterior wall, although I need to take measurements to confirm:


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post #7227 of 7228 Unread Today, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I'm sorry but I'm still unclear what you mean by adding wood between the studs. Are you suggesting I recess the speakers into the wall? In other words, building a "shelf" between the studs to sit the speaker on, and cutting a rectangular hole in the drywall that the speaker fires through? And if I understand you correctly the point of this would be to give me effectively "in wall" speakers but allow me to toe in the L/R mains, correct?
Yes - that is what I am suggesting - provided you have enough height there for your left front for that. You would already be cutting a hole for the center (and the L/R if you were doing In-Wall speakers). Holes/Speakers/Everything would be covered/hidden by the screen.

In your photo do you see the horizontal 2x4s? That is known as blocking and is simply reinforcing the vertical studs in a load bearing wall so they don't bow. What I was suggesting was adding more "blocking" at tha appropriate height to use as a shelf for your speaker; except instead of 2x4s use 2x6 or 2x8 - whatever will be deep enough to hold the speaker at whatever angle of toe-in is required. That should allow you to get the speaker pretty much as close to the screen as an actual In-Wall.
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I was at NAB much of this week and got to speak to two DTS engineers. They told me that for DTS-X they are recommending 4 ceiling speakers. In my case they recommend those be about 3 foot in from the sides and back of the theater viewing space : my room is 22'L x 17' W but viewing space is 17' x 15'

Guys, I'm just starting to plan my room and cannot afford new Triads... but they sell used on ebay for much less. How can I know what speakers to get for my space, and which ones will "match" if I buy from several sellers? I want to use mainly hidden (in-wall) but might be able to use in-rooms since my screen wall I can build anyway I want (e.g. transparent screen, etc)

thanks for the help!!!

________
Ltek

my setup: XBMC, Windows Media Center, Z-Wave/Insteon automation, Paradigm-Parasound-Onkyo-Velodyne Home Theater, 110" DIY Screen & BenQ W1070
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