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post #7261 of 7282 Old 04-24-2015, 06:31 AM
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I would go with InCeiling Silver/6 Satellites for the Atmos speakers.

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post #7262 of 7282 Unread 04-27-2015, 12:14 PM
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Triad News

As you may have heard on the news, the West Coast ports were tied up in a 6 month labor dispute. Although the ports are now open, the back log of container ships waiting to unload their cargo is extensive.

Due to the strike, Triad is temporarily out of RackAmp 350s. These amps power the InRoom and InWall Mini and Bronze Subs. Because the ocean freight shipment arrival is still unknown, Triad is air shipping a quantity of amps to help with the shortage and they should arrive within a week or so.

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post #7263 of 7282 Unread 04-27-2015, 04:43 PM
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Wouldn't it be nice if Triad was secretly working on a wide dispersion coaxial ceiling speaker for Atmos or DTS:X? Boy, talk about demand!
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post #7264 of 7282 Unread 04-28-2015, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Wouldn't it be nice if Triad was secretly working on a wide dispersion coaxial ceiling speaker for Atmos or DTS:X? Boy, talk about demand!
I really don't understand the hand wringing about lack of "Atmos speakers" from Triad. Why does a ceiling speaker suddenly have to be a coax because of Atmos/DTSX? Triad already makes many high performance ceiling speakers -- the models with 45 degree angle baffle seem ready made for the job. If, say, a Silver InCeiling LCR is good enough to be a front speaker in a normal 5.1 setup why is it not perfectly suited to be an overhead speaker in an immersive audio setup?
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post #7265 of 7282 Unread 04-28-2015, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I really don't understand the hand wringing about lack of "Atmos speakers" from Triad. Why does a ceiling speaker suddenly have to be a coax because of Atmos/DTSX? Triad already makes many high performance ceiling speakers -- the models with 45 degree angle baffle seem ready made for the job. If, say, a Silver InCeiling LCR is good enough to be a front speaker in a normal 5.1 setup why is it not perfectly suited to be an overhead speaker in an immersive audio setup?
Let's look at requirements for Atmos ceiling speakers.............................small, wide off axis dispersion, short distances to MLP, point source with least distortion possible.

Normal two driver speakers have much higher distortion and breakup at crossover due to interference/interaction between cones. With coaxials, consistent off axis response has HUGE advantages due to co-incident driver arrangement. Coaxials improve point source as in all sound comes from the same pin point center location radiating with much broader coherent dispersion. Dual point source drivers deliver full range sound frequencies in correct phase alignment resulting in smoothest FR possible compared to separated two ways. In other words, less distortion at boundary (ceiling), less distortion at crossover frequency......................smaller form factor which is perfect for ceiling application. Coaxials have perfect form factor for ceiling application.......................and I would love to see Triad come up with their own version for Atmos ie. on-ceiling/in-ceiling product!
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post #7266 of 7282 Unread 04-28-2015, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post
Let's look at requirements for Atmos ceiling speakers.............................small, wide off axis dispersion, short distances to MLP, point source with least distortion possible.

Normal two driver speakers have much higher distortion and breakup at crossover due to interference/interaction between cones. With coaxials, consistent off axis response has HUGE advantages due to co-incident driver arrangement. Coaxials improve point source as in all sound comes from the same pin point center location radiating with much broader coherent dispersion. Dual point source drivers deliver full range sound frequencies in correct phase alignment resulting in smoothest FR possible compared to separated two ways. In other words, less distortion at boundary (ceiling), less distortion at crossover frequency......................smaller form factor which is perfect for ceiling application. Coaxials have perfect form factor for ceiling application.......................and I would love to see Triad come up with their own version for Atmos ie. on-ceiling/in-ceiling product!
From the multiple multiple talks with the guys while they helped plan my room, I never got the impression they were going to change what they r doing now. They seem pretty satisfied with what they have going on with the bronze lcr incieling and seem to be staying in that camp. I could be wrong but that's the impression I got.

I don't know maybe I will hate how my room sounds when it is done but I doubt it cause I am prob in that group of 90 percent that would be happy with the bronze setup they have now for demo and have been using.

Jim
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post
From the multiple multiple talks with the guys while they helped plan my room, I never got the impression they were going to change what they r doing now. They seem pretty satisfied with what they have going on with the bronze lcr incieling and seem to be staying in that camp. I could be wrong but that's the impression I got.

I don't know maybe I will hate how my room sounds when it is done but I doubt it cause I am prob in that group of 90 percent that would be happy with the bronze setup they have now for demo and have been using.

Jim
You maybe right...................but 45 degree baffle won't work in my room for front...............I need 28-31 degree baffle. In rear, I need 10-15 degree baffle with 8 ft throw which will not work using 2 way driver set up such as Bronze in-ceiling or in-wall set on it's side. What works for one room may not work for another. Advantage of coaxials............could work in both applications.
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Ok Triad gurus (Dawn, you will recognize this thread from RC). I have finally decided to practice what I preach and put a 5.1 system in my living room. This is not a dedicated theater, and will have several compromises. First, LCR will be in-ceiling Bronze LCR. Sub may be an in room gold, or James Cinema15, or a pair of JBL HTPS-400. To be determined. My biggest concern is choice and placement of the surround speakers. Again, in-ceiling is the only option here. Problem is the sofa is right up against the rear wall. Not the best, I know, but not much room to wiggle here. My readily available options are in-ceiling gold omni, or in-wall bronze surround. I already have access to those 2 speakers, so hopefully one of those will work. Placement is a concern, and if I do the in-wall surrounds, what orientation would work best? And how far apart should I put them? I attached the quick and dirty paintbrush diagram. You can see where my orange squares are. That is my thought of approximately where the speakers need to go. I am open to ideas here. I have about 21" between the back wall and the next truss/joist, so these will be very close to the rear wall.

Obviously, I am somewhat stuck with what I got so to speak, so I am trying to make the best of the room I have to work with. Some have suggested going with in-room models places behind the sofa firing up. Not sure that compromise is any better than in-ceiling. But if it turns out that actually works well, I am open to try it. It would be easy enough to experiment with for sure.

Thoughts?
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Again, in-ceiling is the only option here. Problem is the sofa is right up against the rear wall. Not the best, I know, but not much room to wiggle here. My readily available options are in-ceiling gold omni, or in-wall bronze surround. I already have access to those 2 speakers, so hopefully one of those will work. Placement is a concern, and if I do the in-wall surrounds, what orientation would work best? And how far apart should I put them? I attached the quick and dirty paintbrush diagram. You can see where my orange squares are. That is my thought of approximately where the speakers need to go. I am open to ideas here. I have about 21" between the back wall and the next truss/joist, so these will be very close to the rear wall.
My room is 10' deep and 12' wide with my seating along the rear wall. I use a pair of in-wall silver surrounds in the ceiling about 1' from side and rear wall. At the MLP it works well with minimal cue of ceiling source; however while the seating under the speaker doesn't quite hotspot, it overpowers the other side surround collapsing the surround effect. I'm curious to try in ceiling Gold Omni SE's where the balance of sound between the speaker above being off axis in comparison to the opposite side speaker would be more balanced. Or for me as I do have walls on either side, I may try reflecting each side surround off the side walls.

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Hi everyone,

I need more help with my home theater build using Triad In-walls for LCR and rear surround (5.1). I am leaving wires in the ceiling for 4 in-ceiling speakers for Atmos that may be installed at a later date, but keep that in mind. I will try post a picture of the room layout.

What I don't quite understand, is how large/good of speakers I need. My room is 14' wide and 17' long with an open back wall to the rest of a basement. 9' ceilings. Though the "theater area" will be about 2142 cubic feet, the entirety of the basement with which the sound will "see" is about 6000 cubic feet. I will likely need more oomph from my LCRs than if the theater was sealed. Also, the L/C/R will be placed behind an AT screen so the 2-3 dB loss needs accounting as well. One question is that I don't know what Reference level is, at least I've never measured it while I'm listening to it. Therefore I'm looking for a system that can achieve Reference level in this room at the seating positions, though in truth I will listen at -10 dB just like everyone else most of the time. Seating will be at 9' and 14.5' from the screen.

My initial consideration was putting 3 inWall Gold/6 LCR behind the screen at appropriate height. This way if I listen to music as well at least I have speakers with the minerals to push it. I'm guessing the 3-way of the Golds is more of a step up than just volume from the Silver/6 InWalls, right?

For rear surrounds (5.1.?) they will be placed in the left and right walls. I was going to knee/jerk buy InWall gold/4 Surrounds for this purpose. Are these overkill for my room? Would the Silver/4 surrounds be a better choice? They seem to be a large jump from the Silver/4 InWalls just in number of drivers. Dawn's chart which was posted earlier seems to suggest Gold Inwall Omni SE speakers for surrounds, but those would be mono would they not? I don't quite understand this.

My seating will be 4 theater seats at 9 feet, and 4 theater seats at 14.5 feet, with the rear seats used 90% of the time. The seats will be pushed against the right wall for a left wall walking lane, and the rear seats will be on an 8" riser. Does the rear in-wall surround speaker go between the rows, behind the rear row, or next to the rear row? I assume that far right seating position will be about 18" from that speaker, so it won't be a very good spot with the sound up! What about dipole vs bipole? I heard that bipole is better in general and plays nicely with Dolby Atmos if I get that hooked up.

I plan to push all these speakers with an Emotiva 5 channel amp with 300 w/ch. at 4 ohms. Good match?

Please help, and I appreciate all replies in advance.
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If you want to reach reference levels at your second row, none of the speakers you are considering will do that. Here is a calculator to help you. Make amplifier headroom 0 as you will get 3-4db room gain.
http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/c...power_required


If you really want reference level at all your seats you need a speaker with a sensitivity 95db or more.
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post #7272 of 7282 Unread Today, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophiliac View Post
Ok Triad gurus (Dawn, you will recognize this thread from RC). I have finally decided to practice what I preach and put a 5.1 system in my living room. This is not a dedicated theater, and will have several compromises. First, LCR will be in-ceiling Bronze LCR. Sub may be an in room gold, or James Cinema15, or a pair of JBL HTPS-400. To be determined. My biggest concern is choice and placement of the surround speakers. Again, in-ceiling is the only option here. Problem is the sofa is right up against the rear wall. Not the best, I know, but not much room to wiggle here. My readily available options are in-ceiling gold omni, or in-wall bronze surround. I already have access to those 2 speakers, so hopefully one of those will work. Placement is a concern, and if I do the in-wall surrounds, what orientation would work best? And how far apart should I put them? I attached the quick and dirty paintbrush diagram. You can see where my orange squares are. That is my thought of approximately where the speakers need to go. I am open to ideas here. I have about 21" between the back wall and the next truss/joist, so these will be very close to the rear wall.

Obviously, I am somewhat stuck with what I got so to speak, so I am trying to make the best of the room I have to work with. Some have suggested going with in-room models places behind the sofa firing up. Not sure that compromise is any better than in-ceiling. But if it turns out that actually works well, I am open to try it. It would be easy enough to experiment with for sure.

Thoughts?
As I mentioned over at RC, unless you are deploying Atmos, go with IW Bronze Surrounds In the ceiling about 10" from the back wall.

Can't hurt to get other opinions though. :-)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
If you want to reach reference levels at your second row, none of the speakers you are considering will do that. Here is a calculator to help you. Make amplifier headroom 0 as you will get 3-4db room gain.
http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/c...power_required


If you really want reference level at all your seats you need a speaker with a sensitivity 95db or more.

That calculator doesn't take total room size into consideration, which it needs to do in order to be accurate.

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[QUOTE=Dawn Gordon;33969578]That calculator doesn't take total room size into consideration, which it needs to do in order to be accurate.[/QUOTE


I factored that and that is why I said set the headroom to 0 (it defaults to 3) because the room gain will account for amplifier headroom. You are not going to get much more than 4db room gain at higher frequencies in a non-sealed room, with subs you can get more depending on placement. You can also factor that it would not be common for only one speaker to be playing at a time. If you figure that at least two will be playing than you get another ~2db per speaker added. But, technically that is not reference as each speaker should be able to reach 105db at the listening position. If I were factoring a sealed room the requirements go way down, with the Triad speakers considered the levels could be reached with a decent receiver. The question is do you need to reach reference levels?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
If you want to reach reference levels at your second row, none of the speakers you are considering will do that. Here is a calculator to help you. Make amplifier headroom 0 as you will get 3-4db room gain.
http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/c...power_required


If you really want reference level at all your seats you need a speaker with a sensitivity 95db or more.
I also get a kick out of reference for all seats..........those poor souls in the front row are now listening 6 db's above! Who listens to reference for extend times anyway...........maybe 3-5%? Any ways.........remember, the old timers now have hearing aids! ;

If reference is a concern, Gold LCR's will hit the magic number from 12-15 ft with some head room to boot.
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Originally Posted by Dawn Gordon View Post
As I mentioned over at RC, unless you are deploying Atmos, go with IW Bronze Surrounds In the ceiling about 10" from the back wall.

Can't hurt to get other opinions though. :-)
Thanks. Again. How would you suggest I orient the in-wall speakers in relation to the rear wall? And how far apart should they be for the best coverage over at least most of the seating area? Would the locations I highlighted on my rudimentary drawing be ok?
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Originally Posted by Highplainsdakota View Post
Hi everyone,

I need more help with my home theater build using Triad In-walls for LCR and rear surround (5.1). I am leaving wires in the ceiling for 4 in-ceiling speakers for Atmos that may be installed at a later date, but keep that in mind. I will try post a picture of the room layout.

What I don't quite understand, is how large/good of speakers I need. My room is 14' wide and 17' long with an open back wall to the rest of a basement. 9' ceilings. Though the "theater area" will be about 2142 cubic feet, the entirety of the basement with which the sound will "see" is about 6000 cubic feet. I will likely need more oomph from my LCRs than if the theater was sealed. Also, the L/C/R will be placed behind an AT screen so the 2-3 dB loss needs accounting as well. One question is that I don't know what Reference level is, at least I've never measured it while I'm listening to it. Therefore I'm looking for a system that can achieve Reference level in this room at the seating positions, though in truth I will listen at -10 dB just like everyone else most of the time. Seating will be at 9' and 14.5' from the screen.

My initial consideration was putting 3 inWall Gold/6 LCR behind the screen at appropriate height. This way if I listen to music as well at least I have speakers with the minerals to push it. I'm guessing the 3-way of the Golds is more of a step up than just volume from the Silver/6 InWalls, right?

For rear surrounds (5.1.?) they will be placed in the left and right walls. I was going to knee/jerk buy InWall gold/4 Surrounds for this purpose. Are these overkill for my room? Would the Silver/4 surrounds be a better choice? They seem to be a large jump from the Silver/4 InWalls just in number of drivers. Dawn's chart which was posted earlier seems to suggest Gold Inwall Omni SE speakers for surrounds, but those would be mono would they not? I don't quite understand this.

My seating will be 4 theater seats at 9 feet, and 4 theater seats at 14.5 feet, with the rear seats used 90% of the time. The seats will be pushed against the right wall for a left wall walking lane, and the rear seats will be on an 8" riser. Does the rear in-wall surround speaker go between the rows, behind the rear row, or next to the rear row? I assume that far right seating position will be about 18" from that speaker, so it won't be a very good spot with the sound up! What about dipole vs bipole? I heard that bipole is better in general and plays nicely with Dolby Atmos if I get that hooked up.

I plan to push all these speakers with an Emotiva 5 channel amp with 300 w/ch. at 4 ohms. Good match?

Please help, and I appreciate all replies in advance.
Gold LCR's will give you all the SPL that you will want. If seats are recliners, you are going to need a little more room between first and second row. Also, size of room does not matter for speakers. It is listening distance that matters. Size of the room matters for subs.
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Sound decreases 6db with a doubling of distance in an open space. So he won't get 6bd difference between his rows as they are not double the difference apart. It is also different in a smaller space is the total SPL will be a combined direct and reflected sound. If it is only distance than the calculator I linked to would be very accurate for this situation and those speakers would not work to reach the levels desired and still have amplifier headroom. However reflected and direct sound combine to give overall output. HAA has a calculator for sealed rooms where you put in the room dimensions, speaker sensitivity and power and it will give the db level that can be achieved and has a little graph of where the db level comes from in direct, reflected and total sound. However this calculator is for sealed rooms. You can use other modeling software like EASE which we use to figure may other things besides this. He is pretty close to reference volume with the Triad speakers at 14.5 feet or approximately 103db, in a sealed room it would easily reach it with these speakers.
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Sound decreases 6db with a doubling of distance in an open space. So he won't get 6bd difference between his rows as they are not double the difference apart. It is also different in a smaller space is the total SPL will be a combined direct and reflected sound. If it is only distance than the calculator I linked to would be very accurate for this situation and those speakers would not work to reach the levels desired and still have amplifier headroom. However reflected and direct sound combine to give overall output. HAA has a calculator for sealed rooms where you put in the room dimensions, speaker sensitivity and power and it will give the db level that can be achieved and has a little graph of where the db level comes from in direct, reflected and total sound. However this calculator is for sealed rooms. You can use other modeling software like EASE which we use to figure may other things besides this. He is pretty close to reference volume with the Triad speakers at 14.5 feet or approximately 103db, in a sealed room it would easily reach it with these speakers.
I would love to see that haa calculator, but can't find it. Do you have a link to share?
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I would love to see that haa calculator, but can't find it. Do you have a link to share?

SPL for Front LCR
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Thanks!

Edit: is this the same one? I've seen this one before, but I thought it was supposed to use your room dimensions?
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That is not the HAA one but close enough for government work. Set the speaker to 1. In most situations in a non-sealed room add 3-4db to the sensitivity or set the headroom to 0 and you will be pretty close. The HAA one is in the download area under the member section. That one you put in room dimensions but doesn't factor number of speakers. If you are a member you can download it. If not you might want to email them. The Triads may or may not reach reference in your room. If you really like to play loud I would want them to go a few db above reference but if you find reference loud I don't think missing it by a db or two is going to matter much.
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