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post #181 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The Def Techs were very impressive. One gent (though the one with the least amount of audio experience) liked them the best. They are big, bold and hard hitting while retaining articulation. These are taking up residence in our large theater room.

Craig, why did you sell off your 850s and keep the Def Techs?

I currently have Def Techs, but have been considering migrating to direct radiating speakers. For 100% Movie usage would it be worthwhile to replace the Def Techs with Rockets 850s with Rocket 250s as surrounds? Should I just stick with my 7 channel Def Tech setup?
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post #182 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Black Magic - I am going to get back into Rockets when the new RSC 500 "Megafoot" center channel comes out ... and the matching mains will be the RS-1K's ... With the sale on them, I pre-ordered to get the sale price, and am just waiting until the 500 is available.

I sold Brandon the 850's, otherwise, he would still be here. And if you saw how much food those 3 can eat ...

The Def Techs are fine until the 1000's come out.

I know that's not a direct answer as to what YOU should do, but perhaps it helps some ?
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post #183 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:05 PM
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As an owner of Salk speakers, not the SongTowers, I was looking forward to this test with a good bit of anticipation.
I feel that Jim's & Dennis' speakers and ID speakers in general with a few notible exceptions, don't get the attention they deserve from the "press establishment".
Many people are understandibly wary of these products because it's much easier to audition speakers in a B&M setting.
I'd like to thank Craig and everyone who partcipated, for conducting these tests and giving these speakers a wider audience.
You guys are true audiophiles in every sense of the word.

Well done!

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

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post #184 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostatic13 View Post

Interesting about the A3s in light of the performance of the A1 in the bookshelf gtg. Would you attribute this to the fact in this case the competition was just so much superior that the A3 fell short, or that the A1 is just a better execution/application of the design?

Hi; just finishing my day over here and thought I'd add to the din.

I wondered the same thing...and I also looked at it from the standpoint that the A1 used in free air, as the prior GTG did, should have definitely been the brighter sound. In light of my experiences as well as those of a number of seasoned listener/A3 users, it's perplexing. We find the A3 about as balanced as anything TAI has, if I may say so myself. The A3 is very close to the Radia Z tower, which as I recall, TAS enjoyed quite a bit in 2004 or 2005.

Hey, it's audio: Stuff happens. We "do" speakers but we always preach systems, amps, and sources too.

Craig, did this pair sound different than the first pair? I'm asking Chris Brunhaver to take a look too. Maybe we drop-shipped a bad pair?

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post #185 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

That being said, the SongTowers are about $550 more, give Swan the same budget, and turn the D2.1SE's into a tower ... and I think it would be REALLY close.

Thanks, and it's really nice to be considered in that company, Craig. The new towers will show at CES -- just got the news this evening.

Update: We've just now confirmed the smaller D1.1se and D1.1sec (center) for Q1, 2008.

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post #186 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyg1983 View Post

Yes, it will be very interesting to see what Jon comes up with as far as a High End Swan tower in the D-series. He's indicated that both the D4.1se (small 3-way tower with planar tweeter) and D5.1se (medium 3-way tower with planar tweeter) should see the light of day in Decemeber, as well as a smaller monitor and matching center channel speaker. I've been giving these speakers a lot of consideration myself, and am thinking that my smaller apartment might be better suited by a pair of d2.1se's with the matching center (D2.1SEC), all three of which can likely be had for roughly the price of the SongTowers (while I'd LOVE the extra bass from the STs, my neighbors surely wouldn't!!).

Many thanks. That's the lineup as presently configured, and it'll start rolling out at CES early January 2008. I'm told Swan is also customizing a 5.25" "D1.1se" and its matching center as well -- they're amping up the 5" driver to higher standards just for this line.

Funny thing is, I spec'ed this line back in late 2003, I think it was. Swan seems to like the notion and we're excited to be finally working on it.

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post #187 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

One thing they all agreed on: The 850 Sigs, SongTowers, Swan 6.2's and Def Techs are all very musical speakers, and they would be happy with any of them.

Thanks again, Craig; that's high praise for Swan's Diva. I don't know how you do what you do but I'm glad you do.

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post #188 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am going to play around with the A3's again this weekend ... but I think the issue is not that they "sucked" ... but the other speakers are just REALLY good.

I think the mid-woofers on the A3's may have been working too hard, too. Keep in mind - they are a much smaller speaker, less internal volume, and sell for $500.

That being said, my 2 month old sonic memory says the other ones were better. I know that is not scientific...
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post #189 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:37 PM
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Craig, you prefer the Salks or the Dana 930's? or would any such opinion be premature at this stage?
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post #190 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by dlfromcanada View Post

Craig, you prefer the Salks or the Dana 930's? or would any such opinion be premature at this stage?

It would be premature ... That is going to start this weekend, with the Epik Valor subwoofer in the system.
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post #191 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I am going to play around with the A3's again this weekend ... but I think the issue is not that they "sucked" ... but the other speakers are just REALLY good.

I think the mid-woofers on the A3's may have been working too hard, too. Keep in mind - they are a much smaller speaker, less internal volume, and sell for $500.

That being said, my 2 month old sonic memory says the other ones were better. I know that is not scientific...

Entirely reasonable, Craig. I'm thinking the A3 might enjoy the usual 80Hz highpass somewhat more than the larger designs.

If it turns out they have a problem, I know where there's more...

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post #192 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Entirely reasonable, Craig. I'm thinking the A3 might enjoy the usual 80Hz highpass somewhat more than the larger designs.

If it turns out they have a problem, I know where there's more...

The other issue ... we were cranking this weekend. The music was not subtle ... I will also put them into our theater system, crossed at 80, and get some feedback... and listen to them at more moderate levels in our basement.

I also see a $300 to $600 tower shootout in the near future.
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post #193 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 06:51 PM
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"Oh wow...sorry, I didn't realize that you designed them. Let me say, you do fantastic work! The Salk's are truly amazing for the price! Kudos to you, Dennis!"

Thanks Nuance. But I overstated my contribution. Although I did choose the drivers and designed the crossover, the all-important TL bass loading was optimized by Paul Kittinger using Martin King's spread sheets. Transmission lines havebeen something of a black magic enterprise until Martin finally worked out the math and provided an optimization program. Paul had the patience and insight to master the procedure, and came up with the cabinet design for the Song Tower. Infinite thanks to Paul and Martin.
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post #194 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 07:15 PM
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Salk "Song towers"? I don't see anything like that on their web site. What is the actual model name/number of the Salk speakers that were used in the listening session?
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post #195 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 07:25 PM
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Craig and all, thanks for kicking off this shootout, looking forward to future results.
One thing I did notice from looking at the Salk website, it looks like the pedigree of the components and design of the Song Towers (Seas Drivers, Hiquphon Tweeter, Dennis Murphy xover, transmission line cabinet, etc.) is pretty much unheard of at this price point. Not to say that implementation is not just as important as parts selection, but at least from my limited experience and knowledge, you don't often see parts of this quality at $1500.

Craig, how would you say the cosmetics and build quality of the Salks matched up to the Rockets and Swans?
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post #196 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

Salk "Song towers"? I don't see anything like that on their web site. What is the actual model name/number of the Salk speakers that were used in the listening session?

Try this. They've changed their site recently.

J.

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post #197 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

Salk "Song towers"? I don't see anything like that on their web site. What is the actual model name/number of the Salk speakers that were used in the listening session?



http://www.salksound.com/songtower.shtml
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post #198 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 07:40 PM
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craigsub, what reason did Axiom give for pulling out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I also see a $300 to $600 tower shootout in the near future.

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post #199 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 07:42 PM
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hdmi4ever -

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

Salk "Song towers"? I don't see anything like that on their web site. What is the actual model name/number of the Salk speakers that were used in the listening session?

I think this is what you're looking for:
http://www.salksound.com/songtower.shtml

- Jim

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post #200 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by EdS View Post

Craig, how would you say the cosmetics and build quality of the Salks matched up to the Rockets and Swans?

Excellent question and not really addressed yet. I'm also curious about the build quality of the Rockets and the Salks and the Swans. Did you guys spend time looking at the speakers themselves and critiquing/evaluating the quality of the cabinetry? All of the speakers look good in pics at their respective sites, but I know first-hand that a crappy thumbnail picture is often worth about a thousand curse words. Is there a speaker that "stood out" as far as build quality goes?

J.

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post #201 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

"Oh wow...sorry, I didn't realize that you designed them. Let me say, you do fantastic work! The Salk's are truly amazing for the price! Kudos to you, Dennis!"

Thanks Nuance. But I overstated my contribution. Although I did choose the drivers and designed the crossover, the all-important TL bass loading was optimized by Paul Kittinger using Martin King's spread sheets. Transmission lines havebeen something of a black magic enterprise until Martin finally worked out the math and provided an optimization program. Paul had the patience and insight to master the procedure, and came up with the cabinet design for the Song Tower. Infinite thanks to Paul and Martin.

Dennis designed the crossover on the Salk HT-3 which is right now their best speaker (flagship). Dennis is the very essence of a gentlemen when giving credit where credit is due, but that being said, the SongTower sounds like a Dennis design (and that is a very good thing).
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post #202 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 08:57 PM
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Has anyone compared the ascend acoustics sierra with the salk songtowers? is it worth the upgrade? thanks.
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post #203 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The other issue ... we were cranking this weekend. The music was not subtle ... I will also put them into our theater system, crossed at 80, and get some feedback... and listen to them at more moderate levels in our basement.

I also see a $300 to $600 tower shootout in the near future.

That makes me feel a little better about the world. Given the limitations of apartment life, cranking is not in my future and I'll be crossed to a Hsu sub (unless the Acculines come in soon). Probably the main reason I'm so drawn to the Acculines is that my Adam p11a NFM speakers are incredibly open and detailed at lower volumes. Accu seems like a pretty good budget take on the design (can't afford paying $1K/speaker at this point in time).
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post #204 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 09:37 PM
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Just wanted to pop in and acknowledge those of you who have taken the time to bring to light your findings.

Craig, kudos to you for enjoying this hobby as much as you do and making these listening tests happen, as well as bringing your findings online.

Nuance, that was a fantastic write up! Much better than many of the thoughts I read online and in popular audio magazines.

Exciting stuff and fantastic job boys!!

Mark

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - - Stephen Roberts
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post #205 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 09:37 PM
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First off, thanks again to Craig for hosting the event and for Nuance and friends for their "heroic" efforts as well. Nuance, your report was certainly well written and insightful. I thought you did an excellent job!

I see Dennis Murphy already beat me to it, but I have a few comments that may shed some additional light on this design.

About a year ago, Dennis approached me about bringing a design he had been working on (which would later be named the SongTower QWT's) to market. At the time, I had very little interest in a speaker in this price range. But he persisted and I finally agreed to build a test pair.

Having worked with Dennis on a number of highly successful projects over the years, I expected the SongTowers to be good. But for a speaker in this price category, they clearly exceeded my expectations. As soon as I fired them up, I knew instantly that this was a speaker that deserved a wide audience.

Speaker design is the art of balancing trade-offs. No speaker is perfect. When we analyze a potential new offering, there are several critical areas that we are unwilling to compromise.

First and foremost, midrange detail and accuracy are a must. We simply will not offer a speaker that falls short in this area. Get the midrange right, and you have the basis for a great speaker.

After all, 80% of what you hear is in the midrange. And where home theater is concerned, all the dialog is in the midrange. In this case, midrange accuracy and detail results in a high degree of intelligibility.

To that, add phase accuracy in the crossover region and you have a speaker with precise imaging as well. Now the magic begins!

Quote:


This was the most detailed speaker of the bunch with a midrange that took second to none in the clarity department. Every detail was reproduced but clearer than any of the other speakers so far. Separation of instruments was a cinch...I really did love how every detail was present without having to strain or really focus to hear it.

Nuance, based on those comments and your scoring in the first four categories, I know you heard what I am referring to.

As for your comments on bass extension, here are a few thoughts:

It would have been very easy to provide the SongTowers with greater bass extension. Simply substituting larger midwoofers would have done the trick. But the "trade-off" would have resulted in less midrange detail. And, in our opinion, that is not a trade-off worth considering.

First, in a home theater setting, there is almost always a subwoofer involved. (That is the reason the "Song Series" also includes the SongSub.) So with the SongTowers usable bass extending to below 40Hz, there is simply no need to compromise its excellent midrange performance to gain additional bass extension.

Second, the subtle nature of bass from a TL cabinet is something most people do not fully appreciate the first time they hear it. It certainly doesn't call attention to itself. Only after living with it for a while do you gain an appreciation for it.

Richard Swerdlow, one of the first SongTower owners, has spent a few months with his pair and posted this comment earlier today on audiocircle:

Quote:


Listening to my SongTowers has challenged some of the ideas that I had believed were true about speakers' bass response in general. It seems that what may have been true for sealed or reflex designs is not always the same for TLs. It does get difficult to describe.

Another poster on Audioholics said this about TL speakers in general:

"In a good TL speaker, the bass enhancement is uniform and more extended than for reflex designs. The TLS enclosures do not advertise their bass. It appears effortless and full, with no boom, when called upon by the program material. People who have good TLS speakers, seldom part with them and if they do they regret it.

...a TLS is a highly specialized organ pipe. Like an organ, the port output couples to the room, exhibiting the acoustic phenomenon of encircling. It couples to the room much more uniformly than other designs. Therefore TLS speakers are much less likely to set off room resonances..."

For those who have not listened to properly designed TLs, these may seem like more words praising yet another speaker. Those who have heard the SongTowers (and I assume other well designed TL speakers) are nodding their heads in smiling agreement.

Which brings up one huge advantage a TL design has over a more conventional ported design -- it is much more flexible in terms of room placement. Many people are simply not able to supply the "breathing room" necessary for good performance from a typical ported design. A TL design, on the other hand, can be placed very close to the rear wall without becoming overly boomy and negatively exciting room modes.

You also commented...

Quote:


I started to feel that this speaker was this engaging because it may have a slight forwardness to the midrange. Whatever it was, I didn't mind it at all but came to the conclusion that it may not be for everyone (some may get fatigued by it).

Actually, the SongTowers are voiced ruler-flat as evidenced by this frequency response graph:



Since we custom-build speakers for our clients, we develop close working relationships with them. To date, we have had no SongTower owners mention anything about listener fatigue. But should this situation should ever arise, it is not a problem. The simple addition of a 1-ohm resistor is all that is required to roll off the top end by about 1 db, completely eliminating any possibility of fatigue.

Of course, the response would no longer be flat and you would lose a little top end detail. But if fatigue were ever an issue, there is a simple solution.

Well, I've been going on long enough. Time to call it a day so I can get up and build more speakers in the morning.

Again, thanks to all who participated in this endeavor. We were happy to be part of it!

- Jim

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post #206 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 10:24 PM
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Good Afternoon from BaoAn China...

Gosh - looks like we are keeping some good company here...

Dennis and Jim make one fine product - and I knew we would be "up against it" to do well with this speaker in the mix... Never count out Mr. Lane either... Good Stuff for sure...

I think the RS850 is something special for sure at it's original price - but at the current price it's Oh-My-Heavens Nice...

These are all really exceptional loudspeakers - and I was just glad to be in the mix - same for our pal the RS760 (also at it's current price it's a "wow" for sure)...

Forgetting about price - these are all fine products from companies that really care...

Wish I had more time to chat... I'm doing "electronics" today and tomorrow here - and then I'm heading back home as Gracie is dancing this weekend in the Ballet...

More to come for sure... but for now... HUGE Thanks to Craig Chase...

Wishing all of you all the very best...

mls

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post #207 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 11:15 PM
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post #208 of 484 Old 11-12-2007, 11:34 PM
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Comments to which I was responding were removed, so I removed my response.
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post #209 of 484 Old 11-13-2007, 12:14 AM
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post #210 of 484 Old 11-13-2007, 12:30 AM
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Let's not start the back and forth bickering that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This forum is for information and I love it but I can do without that crap. Or do you want this thread shut down like several others have been so you can get the last word in?
The moderators will take care of any issues they feel a need to. I personally want this particular thread to remain Because I have an interest in upgrading to a floorstanding speaker and the derailment by A-holes that just have to prove their point is really not cool.
Considering the topic being discussed here I don't feel comments by a business owner to be out of line.
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