How to connect two Speakers to the Center Channel Output - AVS Forum

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KyleLC23's Avatar KyleLC23
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post #1 of 41
11-04-2007 | Posts: 16
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I basically have a 5.1 system with one small pair of outdoor speakers above the tv, one paid of large tower speakers beside the tv, and one paid of small pair of back speakers. I would like to hook the pair of small speakers above the tv to the center channel output on my integra receiver. I know it might sound worse than having on center speaker, but I do not want to buy more speakers.

How do you wire two speakers into one output? Do I just jam both postivite wires into the positive center output and both negative wires into the negative slot on the negative center output on the reciever? Is there some thing I need to buy to properly do this so it is not distorted? should I splice the wires into one before I connect them to the receiver? Or should I daisy chain them somehow?

Thank you,
Kyle
Sirquack's Avatar Sirquack
12:25 PM Liked: 11
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Wire them in parrallel, from one speaker to the other. Keep in mind if they are both 8ohm speakers, you will now have a 4ohm load on your receiver. Make sure your receiver can handle the lower impedence.
kzx87's Avatar kzx87
01:48 PM Liked: 10
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I asked this question awhile back and unfortunately everyone said that it is a bad idea.
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim
02:13 PM Liked: 69
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11-04-2007 | Posts: 16,085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLC23 View Post

How do you wire two speakers into one output? Do I just jam both postivite wires into the positive center output and both negative wires into the negative slot on the negative center output on the reciever? Is there some thing I need to buy to properly do this so it is not distorted? should I splice the wires into one before I connect them to the receiver? Or should I daisy chain them somehow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirquack View Post

Wire them in parrallel, from one speaker to the other. Keep in mind if they are both 8ohm speakers, you will now have a 4ohm load on your receiver. Make sure your receiver can handle the lower impedence.

Either way, it's a parallel connection:

1.) "Jam" both wires into the same speaker outputs, + or -, of the receiver. Twisting the wire ends together before inserting them into the receiver's speaker outputs would be the best way to do this.
2.) Splicing the wires somehow, somewhere besides at the wire ends.
3.) Daisy-chaining the speakers by connecting the 1st speaker's + terminal to the 2nd speakers + terminal, and the 1st speakers - terminal to the 2nd speakers - terminal.

But bear in mind that, as Sirquack pointed out, your center channel amp will now see the combined impedance of the 2 speakers. For 8ohm speakers this would be 4ohms.

You could also utilize a serial connection in order to avoid increasing the load.

But, impedance issues aside, using two center channel speakers IS a bad idea. Just use one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kzx87 View Post

I asked this question awhile back and unfortunately everyone said that it is a bad idea.

Why do you say "unfortunately"? We prevented you from utilizing an inferior setup.
kzx87's Avatar kzx87
02:27 PM Liked: 10
post #5 of 41
11-04-2007 | Posts: 57
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I say "unfortunately" because I have a difficult entertainment center to work with and 2 center channel speakers would have been perfect if it wouldn't have sounded like a cat in a garbage can.
porsche951's Avatar porsche951
02:47 PM Liked: 11
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11-04-2007 | Posts: 884
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"one paid of large tower speakers." and one paid of small pair of back speakers." In the words of John Lennon, "What are you going on about, son?"
KyleLC23's Avatar KyleLC23
06:32 PM Liked: 10
post #7 of 41
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I know it might be bad for surround sound, but its more for listening to music...when I listen to music all channels will be playing..

I really don't have the room to put a center speaker, but the pair of speakers I want to use for the center channel is about five feet above the tv..they are those outdoor speakers typicall mount outside...but they are inside.. I am not sure what ohms I they are..

The receiver is a Integra DTR 5.5 http://www.integrahometheater.com/mo...s=Receiver&p=s What the best way to do it...assuming that I have to use both speakers as a center..

Thank you,
Kyle
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
07:43 PM Liked: 141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLC23 View Post

I know it might be bad for surround sound, but its more for listening to music...when I listen to music all channels will be playing..

I really don't have the room to put a center speaker, but the pair of speakers I want to use for the center channel is about five feet above the tv..they are those outdoor speakers typicall mount outside...but they are inside.. I am not sure what ohms I they are..

The receiver is a Integra DTR 5.5 http://www.integrahometheater.com/mo...s=Receiver&p=s What the best way to do it...assuming that I have to use both speakers as a center..

Thank you,
Kyle

Don't!! Use only one of them and keep the other for a spare (or a rear channel). HT or music, paired centers, placed side-by-side, is a bad ideal for imaging and FR.
remodeler's Avatar remodeler
08:29 PM Liked: 10
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11-04-2007 | Posts: 1,215
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Kyle, take the advice these guys are giving you. you could ruin your reciever. I'd guess money is an issue or you wouldn't be trying to avoid buying more speakers. Do you want to buy another reciever? I'd go with one.
Sirquack's Avatar Sirquack
08:46 PM Liked: 11
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Kyle, a center channel speaker is not used for surround, it is for dialog of movies. You can still mount center speakers above or below the tv, just angle them towards your ears. Although this is not the best placement, many are happy with this arrangement.
AMAAudioDude's Avatar AMAAudioDude
05:38 AM Liked: 10
post #11 of 41
11-05-2007 | Posts: 23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLC23 View Post

I basically have a 5.1 system with one small pair of outdoor speakers above the tv, one paid of large tower speakers beside the tv, and one paid of small pair of back speakers. I would like to hook the pair of small speakers above the tv to the center channel output on my integra receiver. I know it might sound worse than having on center speaker, but I do not want to buy more speakers.

How do you wire two speakers into one output? Do I just jam both postivite wires into the positive center output and both negative wires into the negative slot on the negative center output on the reciever? Is there some thing I need to buy to properly do this so it is not distorted? should I splice the wires into one before I connect them to the receiver? Or should I daisy chain them somehow?

Thank you,
Kyle

I would use a speaker selector switch which will keep the impedence the same. You shouldn't splice the wires together. Here is a speaker selector switch that will work & does not cost that much: http://outdoorspeakerstore.com/user/...il.php?pid=122 You simply run the power from your receiver to the switch & then out to the speakers. It's like splicing but safer. You won't harm the speakers or the stereo.
Logic_BomB's Avatar Logic_BomB
08:52 AM Liked: 10
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11-05-2007 | Posts: 773
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Simply put, don't use 2 speakers for your center. There's really no reason for it. Either buy a better center channel speaker if you have the money or REMOVE your existing one and use a phantom center (let your Mains do the work).

Adding 2 speakers will do nothing but negatively impact your system. There's a reason why you never read about good setups using 2 center channels.
psgcdn's Avatar psgcdn
09:35 AM Liked: 256
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Kyle,

What do you hope to gain from using the pair of speakers as center instead of only one of them? Is it because you feel bad about not using the second one?
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim
11:24 AM Liked: 69
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11-05-2007 | Posts: 16,085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLC23 View Post

I know it might be bad for surround sound, but its more for listening to music...when I listen to music all channels will be playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirquack View Post

Kyle, a center channel speaker is not used for surround, it is for dialog of movies.

He didn't really say that he would be using it as a "surround speaker"; he wants to use it as a 2nd center-channel speaker. But utilizing it as a 6th rear speaker WOULD be a much better use for it than as a 2nd center-channel speaker. Many people, because they are sold individually, utilize a 2nd center-channel speaker as their 6th rear speaker.

And although center speakers are "for dialog of movies", they are often VERY poorly designed for that purpose.
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim
11:29 AM Liked: 69
post #15 of 41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remodeler View Post

you could ruin your reciever.

Doubtful, but slightly possible, I suppose. The receiver will most likely go into 'protect mode' if it doesn't like the load.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMAAudioDude View Post

You shouldn't splice the wires together. It's like splicing but safer. You won't harm the speakers or the stereo.

see above


What receiver do you have, KyleLC23?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

HT or music, paired centers, placed side-by-side, is a bad ideal for imaging and FR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logic_BomB View Post

Simply put, don't use 2 speakers for your center. There's really no reason for it. Either buy a better center channel speaker if you have the money or REMOVE your existing one and use a phantom center (let your Mains do the work).

Adding 2 speakers will do nothing but negatively impact your system. There's a reason why you never read about good setups using 2 center channels.

Exactly. That's the BEST reason not to use 2 center channel speakers.
craig john's Avatar craig john
06:42 AM Liked: 354
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11-06-2007 | Posts: 10,375
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Well, I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. I was at the Audioholics Show in Clearwater, FL a few weeks ago and Axiom Audio had a room with a 7.1 system using 2 CC's, one above and one below the screen. I asked Ian Colquhoun, owner and founder of Axiom Audio and lead speaker designer, why they were doing that. He responded that it helps to center the audio image on the screen heightwise. With just one center, either above or below the screen, the audio image is pulled higher or lower than the video image. Two centers, one above and one below provides a "phantom" image in the middle, heightwise.

Knowing the "conventional wisdom" on this forum, I raised an eyebrow and sceptically sat down in the sweet spot. Sure enough, he was right; the audio image was higher and the dialogue was better locked to the image. My CC at home is located one inch below the screen and about 8 inches below the tweeter height of the L/R's. I can occasionally notice sounds, especially dialogue that is localized below the screen, so I am sensitive to this. I asked him about the "comb filtering" that is possible with two speakers mounted this way. His reply was that the ear/brain doesn't really "hear" comb filtering. I'm not sure exactly what comb filtering sounds like, but I didn't hear anything bothersome from the two CC's.

Also, the system was using Axiom's new 8-channel amp, so each CC was driven by it's own amp, eliminating the problem of using the same amp for both speakers.

I would want to spend more time using such a system before I would outright recommend it to someone. Nonetheless, I was surprised that the conventional wisdom of this forum that we should never use two CC's was not absolutely confirmed, as I expected it would be.

Craig
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
10:16 AM Liked: 141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Well, I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. I was at the Audioholics Show in Clearwater, FL a few weeks ago and Axiom Audio had a room with a 7.1 system using 2 CC's, one above and one below the screen. I asked Ian Colquhoun, owner and founder of Axiom Audio and lead speaker designer, why they were doing that. He responded that it helps to center the audio image on the screen heightwise. With just one center, either above or below the screen, the audio image is pulled higher or lower than the video image. Two centers, one above and one below provides a "phantom" image in the middle, heightwise.

Knowing the "conventional wisdom" on this forum, I raised an eyebrow and sceptically sat down in the sweet spot. Sure enough, he was right; the audio image was higher and the dialogue was better locked to the image. My CC at home is located one inch below the screen and about 8 inches below the tweeter height of the L/R's. I can occasionally notice sounds, especially dialogue that is localized below the screen, so I am sensitive to this. I asked him about the "comb filtering" that is possible with two speakers mounted this way. His reply was that the ear/brain doesn't really "hear" comb filtering. I'm not sure exactly what comb filtering sounds like, but I didn't hear anything bothersome from the two CC's.

Also, the system was using Axiom's new 8-channel amp, so each CC was driven by it's own amp, eliminating the problem of using the same amp for both speakers.

I would want to spend more time using such a system before I would outright recommend it to someone. Nonetheless, I was surprised that the conventional wisdom of this forum that we should never use two CC's was not absolutely confirmed, as I expected it would be.

Craig

The fundamental difference is that lateral placement is a much greater problem than vertical displacement and, particularly for HT, the latter can be advantageous.
craig john's Avatar craig john
10:49 AM Liked: 354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The fundamental difference is that lateral placement is a much greater problem than vertical displacement and, particularly for HT, the latter can be advantageous.

Thanks Kal. Now, the next question is: Do you need to use vertically oriented speakers for this, or can two horizontal CC's be used? Axiom was using horizontal CC's and it seemed to work. I may give this a try.

Craig
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Thanks Kal. Now, the next question is: Do you need to use vertically oriented speakers for this, or can two horizontal CC's be used? Axiom was using horizontal CC's and it seemed to work. I may give this a try.
Craig

I cannot imagine using two horizontal CCs would be any worse than using one.
craig john's Avatar craig john
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Well, my CC doesn't have too much issue with lobing because the 2nd woofer is tapered out at the frequencies where it would interfere with the other one:
http://www.klipsch.com/products/deta...specifications
Quote:


The RC-7 center channel features Klipsch's version of 2.5-way crossover technology, called tapered-array. With tapered-array, the two Cerametallicâ„¢ woofers work together to deliver high impact bass with one driver transitioning out at the mid-range frequencies. This provides more consistent coverage across the listening field, less tonal error and improved dialogue intelligibility.

Craig
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Well, my CC doesn't have too much issue with lobing because the 2nd woofer is tapered out at the frequencies where it would interfere with the other one:
http://www.klipsch.com/products/deta...specifications
Craig

Hmmm. If the roll-off is at 550Hz (implied by the quoted site), the two drivers need to be closer than 12" center-to-center. Are they?
craig john's Avatar craig john
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I don't know off the top of my head, but the horn is 8" square so it's probably a little more than that.

Craig
sivadselim's Avatar sivadselim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Well, my CC doesn't have too much issue with lobing because the 2nd woofer is tapered out at the frequencies where it would interfere with the other one...............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Hmmm. If the roll-off is at 550Hz (implied by the quoted site), the two drivers need to be closer than 12" center-to-center. Are they?

Need to be closer than 12" center-to-center for what? To reduce lobing below 550Hz? Only one driver operates from 550Hz to 1950Hz.
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Need to be closer than 12" center-to-center for what? To reduce lobing below 550Hz?

Yes. Lobing and venetian-blind frequency irregularity.
Quote:


Only one driver operates from 550Hz to 1950Hz.

Brick wall crossover, eh?
psgcdn's Avatar psgcdn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The fundamental difference is that lateral placement is a much greater problem than vertical displacement and, particularly for HT, the latter can be advantageous.

Why is that? You are still seated within the dispersion angles of both drivers, and speakers don't care which way gravity is pulling.
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Why is that? You are still seated within the dispersion angles of both drivers, and speakers don't care which way gravity is pulling.

Interference is greatest in the plane of the source displacement due to the physics of wave interaction while (1) the listener tends to move horizontally when listening (not alternating between standing and sitting) and (2) one's ears are horizontally displaced.
psgcdn's Avatar psgcdn
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I'll buy reason #1 partly, because you can still end up with both ears in a null or crest for some frequencies unless in dead center height. As for #2, true in theory but most of comb-filtering isn't between the two ears (fixed spacing) but spatially in the room (if you get my meaning; hard to convey here).

In any case, I've never heard comb filtering (and I'm happy with music from only two speakers with a rock-solid phantom image), so I'm tempted to agree with Ian Colquhoun. :-)
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

I'll buy reason #1 partly, because you can still end up with both ears in a null or crest for some frequencies unless in dead center height. As for #2, true in theory but most of comb-filtering isn't between the two ears (fixed spacing) but spatially in the room (if you get my meaning; hard to convey here).

Agreed but there's no reason to add more comb-filtered signals to the mix.

Quote:


In any case, I've never heard comb filtering (and I'm happy with music from only two speakers with a rock-solid phantom image), so I'm tempted to agree with Ian Colquhoun. :-)

Not equivalent (for the most part) because the signals generally are not identical and the spacing is much wider (changing the harmonics of the interference). OTOH, you still don't get a dual-mono center image over as wide a position range as you would with a discrete center source due to residual interference.
craig john's Avatar craig john
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Hmmm. If the roll-off is at 550Hz (implied by the quoted site), the two drivers need to be closer than 12" center-to-center. Are they?

The two speakers are 16.25" apart. Therefore in order to to almost completely eliminate any interference, the first woofer should start to "taper out" at about 300 Hz with a steep crossover. The actual taper point is 550 Hz and not real steep, (12 dB/octave, IIRC). Nonetheless, that is much better than most MTM horizontal CC's that run both mid-woofers all the up way to the crossover with the tweeter.

As I said, "my CC doesn't have too much issue with lobing". I didn't say it was perfect!

Craig
psgcdn's Avatar psgcdn
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12 dB per octave is still pretty steep. A signal 10 dB down shouldn't be audible over the same frequency at full strength from another driver.

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