The Official Salk Sound Owner's And Discussion Thread - Page 49 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 7Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1441 of 9222 Old 08-15-2008, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
fluke and godawgs - AWESOME! I am looking forward to hearing both your impressions.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1442 of 9222 Old 08-15-2008, 11:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
golfugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Niceville, FL
Posts: 916
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluke242 View Post

HT2's!!!!

I have tracking information! Tracking the packages online every 30 minutes doesn't work too well

Pics and more in the coming weeks!!!

Congrats looking forward to your pics and impressions.
Mark
golfugh is offline  
post #1443 of 9222 Old 08-15-2008, 08:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
funkmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I've got to third the looking forward to both impression...
and of course the pics!

->>>≈<<<-

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
funkmonkey is offline  
post #1444 of 9222 Old 08-15-2008, 08:56 PM
Advanced Member
 
golfugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Niceville, FL
Posts: 916
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Funk
Where are your speakers?? I'm dropping you a PM.
Mark
golfugh is offline  
post #1445 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
So, ah...where are those impressions, godawgs? Even if the Salk's weren't your forte, please post.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #1446 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Okay all - this is a Salk Sound thread, correct? Well, we've got virtually no information on the new SongSub. But here is what we know so far (taken from the Salk site):

12" high-excursion aluminum cone driver


"12" Cast Frame high-excursion woofer with black anodized aluminum cone. The motor has three different shorting paths that dramatically reduce voice coil inductance and motor distortion. Distortion levels are lower than nearly all other high excursion subwoofers on the market. "

12" full suspension passive radiator


"12" Cast frame - full suspension passive radiator, mass tuned, with 22mm of one-way Xmax capability. "

500 Watt RMS plate amp


"500 Watt RMS Class D BASH type high efficiency amplifier with fully adjustable 4th order lowpass crossover. The amp features a continuously-variable phase control (not a 0/180 switch like on many plate amps), full parametric EQ to adjust for room response, adjustable crossover with bypass switch, subsonic filter to extend low-end response, an auto-on feature and more.
system performance

With this tuned enclosure and this amplifier, the woofer remains within its linear operating range at all frequencies above 20Hz at the full 500 Watt output of the amplifier. This linear performance, coupled with the shorting rings inside the motor make this a "Very Low Distortion" (VLD) subwoofer when compared to even many much more expensive subwoofers on the market today.

Bass Extension - In an anechoic environment this subwoofer has a 1 Watt Nearfield -3dB point of 22Hz. In most rooms bass will extend to approximately 18Hz due to typical room gain.

Output - Maximum half-space output is 112 dB at 30Hz, 109 dB at 25Hz, 102 dB at 20Hz (Without Room Gain), with linear output at very low levels of harmonic distortion. "


Performance

"Bass Extension - In an anechoic environment this subwoofer has a 1 Watt Nearfield -3dB point of 22Hz. In most rooms bass will extend to approximately 18Hz due to typical room gain.

Output - Maximum half-space output i
s 112 dB at 30Hz, 109 dB at 25Hz, 102 dB at 20Hz (Without Room Gain), with linear output at very low levels of harmonic distortion. "

Now that we know the tech specs, we need some input on how it performs in real life situations. Does anyone own one of the SongSubs? If so, can you take measurements and post them? Otherwise, Jim and Jeff, can you provide any more information about this attractive looking subwoofer? For instance, why was a passive radiator used and what are its advantages over a fully sealed or ported design?

I'd like to get more talk going concerning this subwoofer, so please post your impressions and/or thoughts folks.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #1447 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 07:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dennis Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 145
[Otherwise, Jim and Dennis, can you provide any more information about this attractive looking subwoofer? For instance, why was a passive radiator used and what are its advantages over a fully sealed or ported design?]

Duh--I know nothing. I don't do bass. I think Jeff Bagby worked with Jim on this one.
Dennis Murphy is offline  
post #1448 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 08:12 AM
Senior Member
 
R Swerdlow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Now that we know the tech specs, we need some input on how it performs in real life situations. Does anyone own one of the SongSubs? If so, can you take measurements and post them? Otherwise, Jim and Dennis, can you provide any more information about this attractive looking subwoofer? For instance, why was a passive radiator used and what are its advantages over a fully sealed or ported design?

I'd like to get more talk going concerning this subwoofer, so please post your impressions and/or thoughts folks.

Here is what little I know about this. Jeff Bagby designed this, not Dennis. I don't know him, but he seems to have an excellent reputation in the online DIY speaker building community. Jim Salk seems to have confidence in his work, and that says plenty.

The driver, I am told, is the same, or very similar to the Dayton RSS315 HF 12" aluminum cone subwoofer. Since it was introduced about 3 or 4 years ago it has been enthusiastically accepted among DIY speaker builders as a high-quality low-distortion subwoofer. It is much less expensive than the subwoofers from the now defunct TC Sounds, and more importantly, it is readily available. Parts Express sells this driver as a kit with a 2 ft³ cabinet and one of their house brand plate amps, all for about $500.
This driver was designed to be used in either sealed or reflex ported cabinets. Because of its particular Thiele/Small parameters, a sealed cabinet of roughly 2 ft³ works well for it. A ported cabinet can also work, but it will have to be much larger. Not surprisingly, most builders have picked the smaller sealed cabinet. See the long list of product reviews from owners on the Parts Express website.

Jim and Jeff took a different approach and made a cabinet with a 12" passive radiator for this subwoofer. A passive radiator is a driver without the voice coil and magnet. For design purposes, a passive radiator is treated the same way as a reflex ported cabinet, only the port is wide and shallow. Hence the larger dimensions than 2 ft³.

I haven't heard this, but I do believe the performance values cited by Jim Salk. It seems to have greater output and it goes lower than the roughly 23 Hz that this driver can do in a 2 ft³ sealed cabinet. It should be a much better value than much more expensive subwoofers favored by Salk for the HT3 that lately have not been available. And of course, it comes in a cabinet constructed and finished by Salk. This will certainly be among the very best available from any source.
R Swerdlow is offline  
post #1449 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post


Duh--I know nothing. I don't do bass. I think Jeff Bagby worked with Jim on this one.

Sorry - I changed the post.

Thank you, R Swerdlow; very helpful.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #1450 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 01:04 PM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi guys,I have not posted here but maybe twice and pm'd Nuance a couple times.

I received my st's (dark walnut) a few days ago,but had not have a chance to really listen to them until yesterday and a little today.Being somewhat new to this hobby,I'll try to give my first impressions of the st's.

First,the finish is quite good something along the lines of the ______ 22l's,eventhough I have some slight imperfections w/mine (which I will email Jim about).Also, the audio gear I'm using are the 905,ps3,and xpa-5.

I loaded the sample cd from Jim Salk and too me it did not take very long for the speakers to break in (30 min. maybe).I was comparing these speaker to my ______ 7002's and imo the st's have a little more natural and refine sound to them,especially in male and female voices.This might be because of the differences in tweeters used in each speaker(st's uses a soft dome and 7002's uses a aluminum dome).By the way, Ray Charles sounded great w/Elton John and Bonnie Ratt on the sample cd,I might have to go to Barnes & Noble and listen to some songs by him.

I played all types of music on the st's and 7002's from Steely Dan,Sting,Carpenters,Pink Floyd,Billy Joel,Korn,Radiohead,STP, and James Taylor to name a few.IMO the st's were better w/the softer music and 7002's were better w/more aggressive music. Next, I tried HT applications for the st's with the Blue Ray movie The Day after Tommorow. Again, imo the 7002's were better,you can just hear more sound effects from them. It might be because their bipolar (2 5.25 drivers and tweeter front and back) and built in sub.

I have a few closing thoughts:
First, Imo, the st's are better speakers for music, but not a very loud levels they lose some of their luster.
Second, there is no contest in the looks department,the st's won this hands down,beautiful HQ furniture looking speakers (If that makes sense), plus your choice of veneer.
Third,is the price, the 7002's are more expensive 2400 retail ,less thru ID.

If someone is more into music then Ht,then I would recommend the st's over the 7002's.Of course, this is only my opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt and to me the best way to listen to speakers is in your own house w/your own audio gear.

Hopefully, I made some sense, I was never good at writing,better in math and science.Also,if anybody lives near the New Orleans area and would like listen to the st's,just send me a pm.

Can anybody tell me if their st's came w/any sound deadening treatments,mine did not.You can look in the back port and see if you have any or if your hand is small enough you can feel for it.I will try to post pictures and spend some more time w/st's when the kids are not home.


Again, sorry for the bad writing and grammer usage

Michael
aasen7 is offline  
post #1451 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
The Def Tech's are bipolar, so they reflect sound from the room and anything in the room. This may be why you heard more sound effects, but the real question is were you meant to hear them in that manner, or where the sounds suppose to be precise and pinpoint? Imaging is everything when it comes to movies IMO.

Great write-up, by the way. Everything made complete sense.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #1452 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 02:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dennis Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 145
[ Can anybody tell me if their st's came w/any sound deadening treatments,mine did not.You can look in the back port and see if you have any or if your hand is small enough you can feel for it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by sound deadening material. Are you talking about poly fill that would be inside the cavity, or are you talking about foam lining along the walls? There is fill in the ST, but its placement and density is a critical part of the transmission line tuning. There is no fill in approximately the bottom 1/3 of the cabinet. I would think there would be some kind of lining on the walls, however.
Dennis Murphy is offline  
post #1453 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 03:11 PM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The Def Tech's are bipolar, so they reflect sound from the room and anything in the room. This may be why you heard more sound effects, but the real question is were you meant to hear them in that manner, or where the sounds suppose to be precise and pinpoint? Imaging is everything when it comes to movies IMO.

Great write-up, by the way. Everything made complete sense.

That's a great question and I wish had an good answer for you, but I'll try.

I guess it depends on the scene of the movie and what the director or producer and whoever edits the sound wants to acheive in that particular scene.

In my comparison of the 2 speakers the 7002's, and remember I only played one movie (Day after tomorrow), when the wolves were chasing the the kids on the ship,it felt like you was there.I just did not get that same feeling w/the st's.Maybe w/another movie it might be different or a different ctr channel. I'm using clr 2500, which will provide better timbre matching w/deftechs. I'll try another movie where the sound effects are more precise.

Of course this is just my opinion.
aasen7 is offline  
post #1454 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 03:26 PM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

[ Can anybody tell me if their st's came w/any sound deadening treatments,mine did not.You can look in the back port and see if you have any or if your hand is small enough you can feel for it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by sound deadening material. Are you talking about poly fill that would be inside the cavity, or are you talking about foam lining along the walls? There is fill in the ST, but its placement and density is a critical part of the transmission line tuning. There is no fill in approximately the bottom 1/3 of the cabinet. I would think there would be some kind of lining on the walls, however.

I was able to put my hand in the back port of the speaker and did not feel any lining on the walls just some glue.I reached a little higher and only thing I could feel was some wiring for the crossover.The sound deadening material I'm talking about is to reduce vibration of the cabinet.
aasen7 is offline  
post #1455 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 05:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dennis Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 145
The only material that will affect vibrations is something like Black Hole5, which in my experience isn't necessary if the cabinet is adequately braced. I believe Jim's cabinet has 3 braces, so this isn't really an issue. I only use Black Hole5 in smaller boxes that don't have any braces. The stuffing in the ST is all above the bottom brace. The area between that brace and the mass loaded port should be completely open. The backwave from the woofer over most of its operating range will have been absorbed by that point, and the rest of the area is just for bass tuning. I don't believe further sound treatment will have any effect at that point and at the relevant frequencies.
Dennis Murphy is offline  
post #1456 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 05:40 PM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here's some pictures,hopefully I did not offend anybody early.
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
aasen7 is offline  
post #1457 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 05:55 PM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

The only material that will affect vibrations is something like Black Hole5, which in my experience isn't necessary if the cabinet is adequately braced. I believe Jim's cabinet has 3 braces, so this isn't really an issue. I only use Black Hole5 in smaller boxes that don't have any braces. The stuffing in the ST is all above the bottom brace. The area between that brace and the mass loaded port should be completely open. The backwave from the woofer over most of its operating range will have been absorbed by that point, and the rest of the area is just for bass tuning. I don't believe further sound treatment will have any effect at that point and at the relevant frequencies.

Thanks for the reply Dennis.I was just wondering because I saw the opening of a speaker cabinet and they had some insulation in there,and was changing it out for some NO-REZ (dampening material) to improve the vibration of the cabinet along w/the x-over.
aasen7 is offline  
post #1458 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 06:15 PM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nuance, not sure if your still there,but I received The Mummy ( blu-ray ) in the mail today.Alot more gunfire,see if my opinion changes.I would be watching it right now,but the Saints are on and my son(9 years old) is in to football for the time being.
aasen7 is offline  
post #1459 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 08:27 PM
Senior Member
 
bigjp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

Here's some pictures,hopefully I did not offend anybody early.

Wow! That walnut is stunning!!! Very nice choice.

As for the sound, I think it takes some time to get used to them when comparing with a different speaker. What I've found is they are very quiet. There is much more blackness behind the sound than I am used to. When I watched my first movie with them I thought they sounded a bit dull, but after a while I realized they were just so much quieter and didn't have so much "noise" in the background (I hope that makes sense, because that's the only way I can think to describe it). During the next few movies I watched (all action movies with busy soundtracks), I could only think that this is how the soundtrack is supposed to sound. There is a great amount of clarity throughout the film.

I'm still working hard to get to know my ST's, and have a long ways to go. However, this is what I'm getting out of them so far.

Also, I've been working on moving them around some and found this makes a big difference in the detail and sound stage. They are very easy to place in a room, but with some work you can find the place where they sound the best.

One more thing....I'm floored by how well they blend with my SVS sub. However, I much prefer to listen to them without a sub for music.
bigjp is offline  
post #1460 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 08:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thirdeye11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,815
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjp View Post

Wow! That walnut is stunning!!! Very nice choice.

As for the sound, I think it takes some time to get used to them when comparing with a different speaker. What I've found is they are very quiet. There is much more blackness behind the sound than I am used to. When I watched my first movie with them I thought they sounded a bit dull, but after a while I realized they were just so much quieter and didn't have so much "noise" in the background (I hope that makes sense, because that's the only way I can think to describe it). During the next few movies I watched (all action movies with busy soundtracks), I could only think that this is how the soundtrack is supposed to sound. There is a great amount of clarity throughout the film.

I'm still working hard to get to know my ST's, and have a long ways to go. However, this is what I'm getting out of them so far.

Also, I've been working on moving them around some and found this makes a big difference in the detail and sound stage. They are very easy to place in a room, but with some work you can find the place where they sound the best.

One more thing....I'm floored by how well they blend with my SVS sub. However, I much prefer to listen to them without a sub for music.

This is really great information. I expect my 5 Song Series speakers to ship next week. What have you found to be ideal placement? I think Dennis Murphy mentioned facing them straight out with no toe in to be best for the widest soundstage if I recall accurately.
thirdeye11 is offline  
post #1461 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 10:01 PM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjp View Post

Wow! That walnut is stunning!!! Very nice choice.

As for the sound, I think it takes some time to get used to them when comparing with a different speaker. What I've found is they are very quiet. There is much more blackness behind the sound than I am used to. When I watched my first movie with them I thought they sounded a bit dull, but after a while I realized they were just so much quieter and didn't have so much "noise" in the background (I hope that makes sense, because that's the only way I can think to describe it). During the next few movies I watched (all action movies with busy soundtracks), I could only think that this is how the soundtrack is supposed to sound. There is a great amount of clarity throughout the film.

I'm still working hard to get to know my ST's, and have a long ways to go. However, this is what I'm getting out of them so far.

Also, I've been working on moving them around some and found this makes a big difference in the detail and sound stage. They are very easy to place in a room, but with some work you can find the place where they sound the best.

One more thing....I'm floored by how well they blend with my SVS sub. However, I much prefer to listen to them without a sub for music.

You might be on to something bigjp.I also thought the st's sounded a bit dull in HT application and still do after just watching The Mummy in blu-ray,but was not brave enough to say it(did not want to bash any speakers).In my early post I beleived I said the 7002's had more sound effects then the st's.I should of said they produce more sound (not always a good thing).I did the comparison standing right next to the speakers and also about 15 ft away going from scene to scene. I just feel right now the 7002's are more alive and dynamic in HT . Bigjp brings up a good point and maybe Nuance was trying relate this to me early.I'm not sure what you are suppose to hear in these
movies.Hopefully the audio engineers have figured this out w/dolby true hd and dts hd ma or the next surround format.Of course this is only my opinion.
aasen7 is offline  
post #1462 of 9222 Old 08-16-2008, 10:08 PM
Senior Member
 
bayareakirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post


I loaded the sample cd from Jim Salk and too me it did not take very long for the speakers to break in (30 min. maybe).

I recommend giving them a bunch more time for break in. The bass for sure became more pronounced and detailed after many hours with mine. Of course you may be using a sub and I'm not. Play with placement some also. After some more time and experimenting, I think you will find low and high volume level (within normal listening ranges) to not matter for dynamic and enjoyable sound in movies as well as music. Let us know if they do/don't open up and grow on you more.

I have the SongCenter also. Dialog is superb (clear and nuanced).
bayareakirk is offline  
post #1463 of 9222 Old 08-17-2008, 04:30 AM
Senior Member
 
bigjp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

This is really great information. I expect my 5 Song Series speakers to ship next week. What have you found to be ideal placement? I think Dennis Murphy mentioned facing them straight out with no toe in to be best for the widest soundstage if I recall accurately.

I did find that the soundstage is bigger with no toe in, but so far I like having them slightly toed. My listening space is about 7 feet from the speakers and they are 6.5' apart. Not ideal, but it's what I have to work with. I wish I could sit about 9' from them.

With no toe in there was too much separation of the instruments in the music and I thought the imaging suffered. I toed them in a bit and it greatly improved. I'm still experimenting to find a good balance between soundstage and imaging. My last attempt I toed them in too much and while it sounded really good at first, after some more listening I realize that I can't hear each instrument as distinctly as I'd like. It's focused too much in the center, where before it sounded like the band was wall to wall in my room. Just need to find the right place for them. I don't find the ST's hard to place, but just like any speaker you have to tweak it to find that "just right" spot.

One thing that has really hit me hard since getting the ST's is that my room sucks ass and room treatments are necessary for great sound. Good sound is possible, but not great. With my previous setup, all the sound was within the boundaries between and in front of the speakers. The shortcomings of the room didn't shout out at me so bad because of this. The ST's are capable of making the sound come from a much wider area and my room is a bit frustrating for me right now, because there is too much reflection.
bigjp is offline  
post #1464 of 9222 Old 08-17-2008, 04:43 AM
Senior Member
 
bigjp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayareakirk View Post

I recommend giving them a bunch more time for break in. The bass for sure became more pronounced and detailed after many hours with mine. Of course you may be using a sub and I'm not. Play with placement some also. After some more time and experimenting, I think you will find low and high volume level (within normal listening ranges) to not matter for dynamic and enjoyable sound in movies as well as music. Let us know if they do/don't open up and grow on you more.

I have the SongCenter also. Dialog is superb (clear and nuanced).

I was thinking that same thing about them opening up. I don't have much time with them so far, but bass is getting better (and it started out excellent). Mids are also more clear and precise.

I agree 110% with what you say about the SongCenter. With dialog it sounds exceptionally clear and natural.

Just one note on the mids of the ST's I feel I should make......HOLY CRAP!!!! Unfreakingbelievable!!!! Everything else I've heard now seems so thin sounding compared to the ST's (haven't heard a lot of other speakers, but you get the idea). It is so lush with layer upon layer of sound. Jim and Dennis were really onto something when they made the mids the focus of this design. I could never go back to anything that didn't have such a big focus on mids. It's makes for a very big "WOW!" factor.
bigjp is offline  
post #1465 of 9222 Old 08-17-2008, 05:30 AM
Senior Member
 
R Swerdlow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

...Can anybody tell me if their st's came w/any sound deadening treatments,mine did not.You can look in the back port and see if you have any or if your hand is small enough you can feel for it.I will try to post pictures and spend some more time w/st's when the kids are not home.

Michael - The dark walnut in your STs looks beautiful!

Those DefTech 7002s have a powered subwoofer in them. And they have two 5.25" drivers and one tweeter in the front and in back, if I read their website correctly. With all those rear facing drivers, they probably sound very different from the SongTowers. And since you are used to their sound, you will have to listen to the STs for sometime before your ears, brain and expectations adjust. To give them a fair comparison with your STs, you should turn down or turn off those built in subs in the DefTechs. They generally have a big effect on movies, especially if they are turned up a bit too loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

I was able to put my hand in the back port of the speaker and did not feel any lining on the walls just some glue.I reached a little higher and only thing I could feel was some wiring for the crossover.The sound deadening material I'm talking about is to reduce vibration of the cabinet.

I think Dennis already answered this question, but I'll add that I see exactly the same in my SongTowers - if you look or reach inside the rear port you see no fill or cabinet lining, just bare MDF. That is exactly as they were meant to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

Thanks for the reply Dennis.I was just wondering because I saw the opening of a speaker cabinet and they had some insulation in there,and was changing it out for some NO-REZ (dampening material) to improve the vibration of the cabinet along w/the x-over.

??? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjp View Post

...As for the sound, I think it takes some time to get used to them when comparing with a different speaker. What I've found is they are very quiet. There is much more blackness behind the sound than I am used to. When I watched my first movie with them I thought they sounded a bit dull, but after a while I realized they were just so much quieter and didn't have so much "noise" in the background (I hope that makes sense, because that's the only way I can think to describe it). During the next few movies I watched (all action movies with busy soundtracks), I could only think that this is how the soundtrack is supposed to sound. There is a great amount of clarity throughout the film.

bigjp - I really like they way you described that, that STs are quieter when there should be no sound. Calling it blackness is perfect . This is a transmission line cabinet at work. When strong bass is called for in the recording SongTowers will surprise you with their bass. When no bass is there, they are unusually quiet. Many people are not used that.

Michael (aasen7), I think you should listen to your SongTowers with a variety of music and movies for at least a week or two. And then listen to the DefTechs and see if you don't agree with what bigjp said.
R Swerdlow is offline  
post #1466 of 9222 Old 08-17-2008, 08:04 AM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Michael (aasen7), I think you should listen to your SongTowers with a variety of music and movies for at least a week or two. And then listen to the DefTechs and see if you don't agree with what bigjp said.

I'll try that out when I have the house to myself and post my impressions.Thanks guys for feedback.Maybe I would be better off w/a bigger speaker like the ht2's or v3's,but that would be the double the price.
aasen7 is offline  
post #1467 of 9222 Old 08-17-2008, 08:39 AM
Senior Member
 
bigjp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Posts: 223
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

Maybe I would be better off w/a bigger speaker like the ht2's or v3's,

Ah, wouldn't we all.
bigjp is offline  
post #1468 of 9222 Old 08-17-2008, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

Here's some pictures,hopefully I did not offend anybody early.

Wow, that finish is gorgeous! Cool!
Quote:
Originally Posted by aasen7 View Post

You might be on to something bigjp.I also thought the st's sounded a bit dull in HT application and still do after just watching The Mummy in blu-ray,but was not brave enough to say it(did not want to bash any speakers).In my early post I beleived I said the 7002's had more sound effects then the st's.I should of said they produce more sound (not always a good thing).I did the comparison standing right next to the speakers and also about 15 ft away going from scene to scene. I just feel right now the 7002's are more alive and dynamic in HT . Bigjp brings up a good point and maybe Nuance was trying relate this to me early.I'm not sure what you are suppose to hear in these
movies.Hopefully the audio engineers have figured this out w/dolby true hd and dts hd ma or the next surround format.Of course this is only my opinion.

Do you have the ST's paired with the rest of a 5.1 or 7.1 surround system? If not, the bipolar design of the Def Tech's completely explains your experience. As I mentioned earlier, you are hearing all of the reflections from the room boundaries and everything else in the room. These speakers were intentionally designed to do this because that type of sound appeals to some people. I am not a fan, but that's just my opinion. I prefer pinpoint imaging over reflected sound that I feel smears the midrange. YMMV.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #1469 of 9222 Old 08-17-2008, 11:01 AM
Member
 
aasen7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Orleans,La.
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nuance:" I prefer pinpoint imaging over reflected sound that I feel smears the midrange. YMMV."

I'm not sure if it makes a great difference in 5.1 or 7.1 HT application.I will be off the next 3 days and the kids will be in school so I'll try what R. Swerdlow suggested.

I can see your point about pinpoint imaging over reflected sound,but so far I can only notice where the reflected sound would hurt the midrange in 2-channel listening.

By the way,what does YMMV mean? Not up to date on text message lingo.

Yes,I moved the 7002's from the entertainment ctr and replaced them w/the st's.Maybe I need to kick up the db's on my receiver when playing the st's in HT.The Deftech are 92 db and I beleive the st's are 87 db.Correct me if I wrong.
aasen7 is offline  
post #1470 of 9222 Old 08-17-2008, 11:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
funkmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
congrats aasen7-

your SongTowers look awesome. I am very interested in hearing how your perception/opinion changes as you listen to them more. You've been given some very good advice about playing around with placement, though by the pictures it looks like you haven't got much flexibility in that area... Is/was your plan to replace the DefTechs in your living room, or are you setting up a second system in another room? I am curious about where the ST's were placed in relation to the 7002's, when you did your initial comparo. I had an experience with two pairs of rear ported (no TL) having very sloppy and flabby sounding bass as a result of their being placed directly in front of another set of speakers... If you had a similar placement, i would have to suggest a re-listen with the other speakers removed completely from the room... just a thought.

Thanks for posting your "less than amazed" impressions, keeps the rest of us honest...

Cheers, I am sure you will like the ST's more and more as you give them time,
Funk

->>>≈<<<-

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
funkmonkey is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off