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post #1711 of 9206 Old 08-31-2008, 05:49 PM
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Thirdeye,
Ya that helps, helps me spend some money that is! That is kind of what I was thinking anyway. My current set up is less than ideal in that my couch is about 1 ft from back wall and surrounds mounted on wall. I guess the right one is 3 ft from me and left is about 5 ft away. Volume is not an issue but matching up on quality is what I'm really going for anyway. Besides I've got a starter home now and can seeing myself moving in 5-7 years to bigger place....and if I keep these speakers as long as my last ones...and if I want to match the quality finish of these..., ah well I guess after I get these in I will have to email Jim so he can hold some of the veneer for my next purchase.
By the way, Jim has been great with communication about everything, I can't overstate how important this was in my decision to purchase these speakers.
Cheers!
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post #1712 of 9206 Old 08-31-2008, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostcow View Post

Thirdeye,
Ya that helps, helps me spend some money that is! That is kind of what I was thinking anyway. My current set up is less than ideal in that my couch is about 1 ft from back wall and surrounds mounted on wall. I guess the right one is 3 ft from me and left is about 5 ft away. Volume is not an issue but matching up on quality is what I'm really going for anyway. Besides I've got a starter home now and can seeing myself moving in 5-7 years to bigger place....and if I keep these speakers as long as my last ones...and if I want to match the quality finish of these..., ah well I guess after I get these in I will have to email Jim so he can hold some of the veneer for my next purchase.
By the way, Jim has been great with communication about everything, I can't overstate how important this was in my decision to purchase these speakers.
Cheers!

Keep in mind that the SongSurrounds are rear ported and you should try to have a good distance between the wall and the back of the speaker. If that is not an option for you then I would ask Jim if he has any speakers that are front ported that will match up with the Song series for surrounds.
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post #1713 of 9206 Old 08-31-2008, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

I purchased an Omnimount CCH1 to place my SongCenter on top of my DLP television. It basically sits flat on the top of the TV then has telescoping legs that extend downwards to meet the sloping back of the TV so that you have a long flat surface on top of the TV to place items like a component or in our case a center channel speaker. Check out the product here:

http://www.provantage.com/omnimount-cch1b~7OMMT03A.htm

It comes in both silver and black models (CCH1B and CCH1P) and it also comes with different set of legs (different lengths) and can mount in 2 different sets of holes on the shelf itself so literally it should work with ANY big screen on the market. It's very configurable.

In regards to weather or not these speakers can fill your room you absolutely will have no trouble whatsoever. I have a room that has 20' ceilings, and the room itself opens to an upstairs area. I sit 12 feet from the center and ST's in front, and about 8 feet from the rears and the room itself is probably 18 x 18 although not a square as the dimensions lead on because of walls in the way and things. It fills the room without any trouble at all.

Your front speakers can be very close to the subwoofer if you want it won't make a difference at all, but subwoofer placement can be tricky in order to get the best sound from it you will need to experiment. I only had one option for placement in my room but it worked out quite well and sounds great.

-Chad

Thank you, that looks perfect. I know I could not be the only person to run into this problem.
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post #1714 of 9206 Old 09-02-2008, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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My SongTower Ribbon Tweeter review is up. I love these things!

A big thanks to Dennis, Jim and everyone involved in helping me along my "journey." I never would have reached this point without you. My speaker "journey" is over...what ever will I do?
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post #1715 of 9206 Old 09-02-2008, 05:14 PM
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Today i also heard the ST ribbons at Jims workplace and i totally concur with Nuances review. In one word spectacular! Friday for the first time Jim will have a pair of S Towers,a pair of S Towers w/ribbons & a pair of HT2's to compare side by side. Should be very interesting.Will report or hopefully get Jims reaction( 1 novice--1 expert).Since the HT2's are mine i will hopefully like what i hear from them but i can tell you that had i not already purchased, i would have bought the ST ribbons in a heartbeat.

Music Sampled
1) Roxy Music---Avalon (Import)
2) Steely Dan---Royal Scam ( Japanese SHM Import)
3) Rush---Permanent Waves (MOFI Ultradisk II)
4) Salk---Demo CD
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post #1716 of 9206 Old 09-02-2008, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

My SongTower Ribbon Tweeter review is up. I love these things!

A big thanks to Dennis, Jim and everyone involved in helping me along my "journey." I never would have reached this point without you. My speaker "journey" is over...what ever will I do?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=3475

Hi Nuance,

No need to despair as I'm sure the beginning of your next journey is just around the corner. Pray that it is as exciting as this one.

I am so happy for you. After such a long search, you deserve to find your perfect speakers. And I'm glad the wife is pleased as well.

And great review!!! Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Jofer
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post #1717 of 9206 Old 09-02-2008, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jofer View Post


And great review!!! Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Jofer


I'll certainly second that. And the best part is--you never noticed the
0W2 tweet hiding behind that fake LCY face plate. It certainly was easier than designing a whole new crossover. Well..............gotta go.



Uh--Nuance? Just kidding. It was an 0W4. We wanted to give you something for that extra $$$$$.


OK--it was really a ribbon. I'm glad it survived the stereo test. I did have one advantage over you, though--I was able to A-B the 0W2 and the LCY with my magic comparo box, albeit in mono. And if you could have been there, I think you would have agreed that, although the ribbon does have superior HF extension and a more natural presentation of transients like cymbals and triangles, the more noticeable difference is a "rounder" or "fuller" sound in the transition area between the woofer and tweeter. I wouldn't have expected that. Ribbons certainly aren't known for their low frequency extension. But the LCY pulls it off, due I would presume to their "double" ribbon construction. (It's really one wide ribbon with a slit in the middle.) I've noticed this in every design I've done with the lcy. It's definitely my favorite ribbon of those I've tried.

Thanks again for the thorough (and articulate) appraisal. I can't say that I used any of those CD's in voicing the ST, but apparently what works on Mozart works on In Flames. Who knew?
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post #1718 of 9206 Old 09-02-2008, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Thanks again for the thorough (and articulate) appraisal. I can't say that I used any of those CD's in voicing the ST, but apparently what works on Mozart works on In Flames. Who knew?

(A little bit of Classical ... a little bit of Rock and Roll! Oh wait....)

In case you missed my response over in the "Perfect speaker" thread... hearty congratulations are due to Brandon, and especially Dennis and Jim. 'Twas a job very well done! I can't wait to hear them.

MARGARITAS,
they're not just for breakfast anymore.
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post #1719 of 9206 Old 09-02-2008, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I'll certainly second that. And the best part is--you never noticed the
0W2 tweet hiding behind that fake LCY face plate. It certainly was easier than designing a whole new crossover. Well..............gotta go.



Uh--Nuance? Just kidding. It was an 0W4. We wanted to give you something for that extra $$$$$.


OK--it was really a ribbon. I'm glad it survived the stereo test. I did have one advantage over you, though--I was able to A-B the 0W2 and the LCY with my magic comparo box, albeit in mono. And if you could have been there, I think you would have agreed that, although the ribbon does have superior HF extension and a more natural presentation of transients like cymbals and triangles, the more noticeable difference is a "rounder" or "fuller" sound in the transition area between the woofer and tweeter. I wouldn't have expected that. Ribbons certainly aren't known for their low frequency extension. But the LCY pulls it off, due I would presume to their "double" ribbon construction. (It's really one wide ribbon with a slit in the middle.) I've noticed this in every design I've done with the lcy. It's definitely my favorite ribbon of those I've tried.

Thanks again for the thorough (and articulate) appraisal. I can't say that I used any of those CD's in voicing the ST, but apparently what works on Mozart works on In Flames. Who knew?

Dennis - I love your sense of humor! You had me laughing out loud a number of times.

Yeah, who knew that a design tuned for classical would sound good with brutal heavy metal? Of course, I listen to a lot of classical, and let me say that while listening to "Firebird" today I was blown away. Truly amazing!

On a related note, rock and heavy metal both have heavy classical roots. I guess that's why I like all of those genres of music, though classical is much more pleasant and easier to listen to.

What you said about the ease and fullness of the transition between the woofer and the tweeter certainly makes sense to me. I heard no vocal "grain" or thinness, just a smooth transition. I wonder if that's the reason the vocals were so full, large and present? Either way, I love it! And it's funny, cause after reading about Tim's issues with "graininess" in the upper mids, I listened intently for it while listening to the Ribbon ST's. I heard nothing of the sort but rather a smooth transition. Thanks God (and Dennis and Jim )!

Dennis, you do fantastic work buddy. Thanks so much for making this possible! Now that Jim will have a pair of SongTower RT's to compare to the stock ST's and HT2's I'd be curious to see how close the ribbon ST's come to the HT2's in terms of performance.

Thanks again!

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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
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post #1720 of 9206 Old 09-02-2008, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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RJ - thanks so much my friend! Now that my speaker journey is complete I will be concentrating on yours as well as Tim's, rydenfan's and golf's. And eventually I'll get some extra cash so I can complete my front end and feed the SongTower RT's what they deserve. Hmm...one journey ends and another begins (or rather has begun). Too funny.

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post #1721 of 9206 Old 09-02-2008, 08:27 PM
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Brandon

I enjoyed reading your SongTower ribbon write up. It was lengthy but fun. Parts of it left me wishing to know the music you were describing, and other parts left me nodding in smiling agreement. Welcome to the happy SongTower owners' club .

One of the fun things will be discovering passages of music (that you thought you knew well) that excite the bass frequencies handled by the TL port. When you find them, you will get a big kick. I have another disc by The Blue Man Group (Audio) where they hit an enormous big a$$ bass drum. The whole room vibrates.

For a awesome pipe organ demo, try this . An Organ Blaster Sampler - Telarc. You will be stunned.

You described very well how clear and clean the midrange sounds in the SongTowers. That is the added benefit of the TL design, where it removes the muddiness caused by the backwave reflections of the woofers.

I heard an early prototype of the ribbon STs at Dennis's house last spring in mono. I liked it, but now I wish I could remember it better. Your description and Dennis's pretty much summed up my impressions. If price was not an issue, it would be easy to decide which is better. But considering the price difference, I am not sure which one I would buy if I were choosing today.
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post #1722 of 9206 Old 09-03-2008, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Swerd -

Thank you for the kind words and for the link, bud. I cannot wait to get a day to myself so I can just throw everything I've got at these badboys! I will definitely check out that pipe organ sampler; 9 bucks plus free shipping - nice!

What you said about discovering new passages is so true. With some of the more familiar stuff, I could hear harmonies, backup vocals and other various subtleties and nuances that I never new existed on the recording. The SongTower RT's really capture the essence of all the hard work, blood, sweat and tears that the artist put into the recording.

I've never heard the HT3's but I just can't imagine it getting much better than this from about 40Hz and up.

Once funds are available I will pick up a musical subwoofer to pair with these, and then a good preamp amp combination. But jeez...just using a receiver the ST's sound amazing!

Something I forgot to mention in my review was that the ST's don't lose their magic when listening at lower volume levels. They still capture every detail and captivate me. I can actually listen to music at night when the wife and child are in bed but still get engrossed in the thick of it. What a treat!

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post #1723 of 9206 Old 09-03-2008, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Something I forgot to mention in my review was that the ST's don't lose their magic when listening at lower volume levels. They still capture every detail and captivate me. I can actually listen to music at night when the wife and child are in bed but still get engrossed in the thick of it. What a treat!

Amen to that! Dynamic range works in both directions - high and low volume. I have never experienced speakers with such a large dynamic range as the STs. Although to be fair, this probably depends on the combined dynamic range of a speaker-amp combination. Unlike the HT-3, STs are not power hungry. They allow HT receivers with average power to have plenty of head room.

And several months ago you were worried that your receiver wouldn't have enough power .
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post #1724 of 9206 Old 09-03-2008, 09:17 AM
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Brandon,
I'll echo Swerd's welcome to the SongTower owner's club! As I read your review I too thought back to the first time I sat down with my wife to listen after I first brought the SongTowers home. She's never much cared about the equipment or speakers I've had, but she (like me) was spellbound by the Song Towers. I hope over the coming months you will have as much fun as I've had over the past year getting to know all the intricacies of sound the SongTowers open up for you.

John
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post #1725 of 9206 Old 09-03-2008, 10:13 AM
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Congrats, Nuance! I am still learning to appreciate my HT2's and love the LCY ribbon. So lush and hair raising, no?!

Here are a few of my top observations after a couple weeks:

1. Transparent - seriously challenges my head looking at the speakers yet hearing pure music elsewhere. It is like nothing sticks to the speakers - just music. Are these things even on??? I listen with me eyes open much more lately just for this spooky effect.

2. Micro Details/Fast - so fast and revealing. Loving percussion, strings, and horns like never before.

3. I need a bigger TV - never bothered me until now, my soundstage even on 2-channel movie viewing is huge compared to my 30" widescreen tv... just seems out of proportion now...
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post #1726 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 11:54 AM
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That is a great review Nuance. I am very happy that the results of integrating the ribbon turned out so well for you.

While I am very happy with the SongTowers, Center and Surround IIs, I am not hearing the bass that you are. I am sure that this is due to a combination of my equipment and my listening area. My TV is placed diagonally in the corner and my SongTowers are flanking it and are only a few inches away from the wall. I have set my Sony STR-DA 3100ES receiver to a 50Hz crossover for the STs, but nothing seems to help.

I am stuck with this setup and arrangement until I can move. There really is nowhere to go with my 621 square feet of condo.

I want to try the Emotiva UMC or XMC Pre/Pro and either a MPS-2 (Higher end Class H) or an XPA-5 (Class A/B) amplifier when I finally move.

Doug
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post #1727 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 12:22 PM
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I have my fronts set to 50hz and the bass is fine , but I also run a sub . When I listen to music I set my rec. to direct so there is no sub and still plenty of bass
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post #1728 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluke242 View Post

Congrats, Nuance! I am still learning to appreciate my HT2's and love the LCY ribbon. So lush and hair raising, no?!

Here are a few of my top observations after a couple weeks:

1. Transparent - seriously challenges my head looking at the speakers yet hearing pure music elsewhere. It is like nothing sticks to the speakers - just music. Are these things even on??? I listen with me eyes open much more lately just for this spooky effect.

2. Micro Details/Fast - so fast and revealing. Loving percussion, strings, and horns like never before.

3. I need a bigger TV - never bothered me until now, my soundstage even on 2-channel movie viewing is huge compared to my 30" widescreen tv... just seems out of proportion now...

Awesome! Sounds like we're both loving how these speakers make us "fee!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by UT-Driven View Post

That is a great review Nuance. I am very happy that the results of integrating the ribbon turned out so well for you.

While I am very happy with the SongTowers, Center and Surround IIs, I am not hearing the bass that you are. I am sure that this is due to a combination of my equipment and my listening area. My TV is placed diagonally in the corner and my SongTowers are flanking it and are only a few inches away from the wall. I have set my Sony STR-DA 3100ES receiver to a 50Hz crossover for the STs, but nothing seems to help.

I am stuck with this setup and arrangement until I can move. There really is nowhere to go with my 621 square feet of condo.

I want to try the Emotiva UMC or XMC Pre/Pro and either a MPS-2 (Higher end Class H) or an XPA-5 (Class A/B) amplifier when I finally move.

Doug

Thank you, Doug.

Hmm...not much bass, eh? I'd guess it was the room, but to be sure have you checked to ensure the woofers are pushing out when they hit? I suppose it's possible that the polarity got reversed when they were assembled.

My ST's have great bass, but it's nothing like a subwoofer or a huge 10" woofer or anything. It's very musical and tight and hits hard when it is suppose to. Sure I'd love a little more, but I would never sacrifice midrange detail for it. I'll be getting a musical subwoofer down the road, but until then I am not displeased with the bass response; it's better than I remembered.

Do you have Audyssey or anything to EQ the low frequency? Else you could use an SPL meter to measure the peaks and nulls to find out if it's the room. My room is surprising decent for bass (after some re-positioning and tweaking), but due to there being no right side wall next to the speaker the imaging/soundstage gets thrown off a little. I will be re-running Audyssey this weekend to see if I can get rid of it.

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post #1729 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 01:33 PM
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Doug -

Quote:
Originally Posted by UT-Driven View Post

I have set my Sony STR-DA 3100ES receiver to a 50Hz crossover for the STs, but nothing seems to help.
Doug

If you want more bass from the SongTowers, set your receiver's setting to "full-range", turning the crossover off. You are limiting the amount of low bass being sent to the SongTowers by using a 50Hz crossover. It is essentially rolling off everything under 50Hz or so.

Let me know if that does the trick.

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post #1730 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 02:09 PM
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Are you running a sub too, UT?

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post #1731 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 03:53 PM
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Doug -



If you want more bass from the SongTowers, set your receiver's setting to "full-range", turning the crossover off. You are limiting the amount of low bass being sent to the SongTowers by using a 50Hz crossover. It is essentially rolling off everything under 50Hz or so.

Let me know if that does the trick.

- Jim

Thanks Jim, I will give that a try. I thought that they had to be crossed over to protect them, but it never really dawned on me that the speakers would already do that. :-)

I might try moving them out an inch or two as well, even though it will look a little less aesthetic.

Doug
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post #1732 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 04:01 PM
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Are you running a sub too, UT?

I am running the receiver with small speakers all the way around and had the crossover set to 50 Hz for the mains. I have an Energy 10" sub that is about 10 years old. I am mostly using an Oppo 980H with the analog outs to the Sony ES Receiver, so the Oppo is doing the Bass management as I understand it. I listen to SACD and DVD-Audio music for the most part on this unit. I am not hearing much difference when I adjust the sub level in the receiver, so I might have something out of whack in the settings.

I had thought about getting a HSU Mid-Bass Module to reinforce the 50-150 Hz range, and maybe a sealed sub since I am more concerned about music than home theater. In the end, I am going to wait until I move to see how proper room positioning affects the overall sound.

Doug
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post #1733 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UT-Driven View Post

I might try moving them out an inch or two as well, even though it will look a little less aesthetic.

Doug

I have mine running full range, so that could be the issue right there.

As for how close they are to the wall, that should actually increase bass output. If you aren't getting the in-room bass response that you like, moving them into the room probably won't help any. However, it may improve imaging, midrange and high frequency detail.

Good luck.

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Quick question. My ST's are amazing, but my room isn't letting me get the most out of them. My soundstage is still a little lopsided to the left side because I have no side wall next to the right speaker. Audyssey didn't do much, so I left all EQ and processing off and leveled matched using my SPL meter at the listening position. Well, the left side of the soundstage is still a little louder. What would you guys to do fix this? Would you increase the right speaker's output even though it shows up louder on the SPL? Would you toe in the right speaker more?

Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated. Oh, and I ruled out the speakers by swapping them with the exact same results and level outputs at the listening position.

P.S. I posted this in my speaker thread as well.

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post #1735 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Quick question. My ST's are amazing, but my room isn't letting me get the most out of them. My soundstage is still a little lopsided to the left side because I have no side wall next to the right speaker. Audyssey didn't do much, so I left all EQ and processing off and leveled matched using my SPL meter at the listening position. .........

I imagine you gave Audyssey several tries, but if not, I'd suggest that you do. I have a similar set up and Audyssey has no trouble matching the timing and level between the channels. Also, if you are not familiar with the recently compiled "Audyssey FAQ", check it out: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895
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post #1736 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by UT-Driven View Post

I am running the receiver with small speakers all the way around and had the crossover set to 50 Hz for the mains. I have an Energy 10" sub that is about 10 years old. ....

I'd start by taking the sub out of the equation and (as others suggested), setting the STs to full range. I don't know how good or bad your sub is (or it's placement and settings), but the STs can definitely give good bass.
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post #1737 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Quick question. My ST's are amazing, but my room isn't letting me get the most out of them. My soundstage is still a little lopsided to the left side because I have no side wall next to the right speaker.

Do you have a TV between the two speakers? If so, be sure that the plane....the left and right sides, are equidistant to the listening position. Due to reflections off of this surface, you can literally "steer" the image. The farther you have the speakers in front of this plane...the better.

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post #1738 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 06:06 PM
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Doug -

Quote:
Originally Posted by UT-Driven View Post

I am running the receiver with small speakers all the way around and had the crossover set to 50 Hz for the mains.
Doug

I am fairly certain that this is your problem. The SongSeries speakers are full-range speakers and should be allowed to run full range. Setting them to "small" prevents lower frequencies from reaching the speakers. You can still cross your sub at around 50 hZ if you need augmentation under about 40Hz or so. But the SongTowers will definitely play down to that level.

Even if you would use a sub under 40 Hz or so, you would still want the SongTowers to play full-range since their bass output would be tightly integrated from a phase and gain standpoint. While it is not impossible to obtain tight integration with a sub and have it take over higher, it can be a challenge to set up properly. There is no challenge at all allowing the SongTowers to run full range as their internal crossover insures proper integration.

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post #1739 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Do you have a TV between the two speakers? If so, be sure that the plane....the left and right sides, are equidistant to the listening position. Due to reflections off of this surface, you can literally "steer" the image. The farther you have the speakers in front of this plane...the better.

Yes, I do have a TV in between the speakers. The speakers are exactly the same distance from the stand, and they are fairly even with the front of the TV stand. You think moving them forward more would help alleviate reflections off of it? I guess I could push the TV and stand another foot or so back.

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post #1740 of 9206 Old 09-04-2008, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bayareakirk View Post

I imagine you gave Audyssey several tries, but if not, I'd suggest that you do. I have a similar set up and Audyssey has no trouble matching the timing and level between the channels. Also, if you are not familiar with the recently compiled "Audyssey FAQ", check it out: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

Yes sir, I did. I followed that exact FAQ with one exception: I don't have a tripod.

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