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post #2941 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Superstar View Post

When you say "hit a wall", could you describe that a little? Did it just stop getting louder? Did it get louder, but sound bad?

It sounded like flapping, major bottoming out.

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post #2942 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 03:09 PM
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i must be missing something. I playing my CDs over HDMI (and high bitrate music from computers and ipod) but I can barely go over 8-10db. I usually start listening around -35db and increase slowly to about -8 or -10 db. When I am really in the mode, I go all the way up to 0.0 db. I start getting head aches at 8-10 db for more than a few minutes and it is loud. What is going on? Are we talking same units or am I getting old?
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post #2943 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 04:25 PM
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I'm getting a little confused (and some of that has to do with this thread). If you are playing music with heavy bass content below, say, 60 Hz, And you crank up the volume on the ST to super high levels, the woofers will bottom out, and bottom out sooner than some speakers with larger drivers. The transmission line tuning helps delay this, I think, but it's inevitable. If there isn't a lot of heavy content bass content, I doubt that there would be much difference in the ultimate SPL levels. The CA15 woofers in parallel, with the loading Paul K designed, don't come near their excursion limits. And the 0W1 tweet is very robust. So I don't think there's much mystery here. If loooouuuuud reproduction of bass is your cup of musical tea, then it may be worthwhile spending more on a speaker with larger, more robust woofers. Or investing in a sub.
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post #2944 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 04:29 PM
 
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Does anyone within 100 miles (give or take) of Nashville, TN have Salk speakers that they would like to demo?
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post #2945 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I'm getting a little confused (and some of that has to do with this thread). If you are playing music with heavy bass content below, say, 60 Hz, And you crank up the volume on the ST to super high levels, the woofers will bottom out, and bottom out sooner than some speakers with larger drivers. The transmission line tuning helps delay this, I think, but it's inevitable. If there isn't a lot of heavy content bass content, I doubt that there would be much difference in the ultimate SPL levels. The CA15 woofers in parallel, with the loading Paul K designed, don't come near their excursion limits. And the 0W1 tweet is very robust. So I don't think there's much mystery here. If loooouuuuud reproduction of bass is your cup of musical tea, then it may be worthwhile spending more on a speaker with larger, more robust woofers. Or investing in a sub.

Bingo. Warp loves LOUD bass. Still, that's why he has 3 subwoofers...or wait, that's just in one room. I think he has something like 10 or 11? Correct me if I am wrong.

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post #2946 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmed View Post

i must be missing something. I playing my CDs over HDMI (and high bitrate music from computers and ipod) but I can barely go over 8-10db. I usually start listening around -35db and increase slowly to about -8 or -10 db. When I am really in the mode, I go all the way up to 0.0 db. I start getting head aches at 8-10 db for more than a few minutes and it is loud. What is going on? Are we talking same units or am I getting old?

Are you saying the woofers bottom out at -8 to -10 or you can't stand it any louder than that? If it's the later, the HT3's are probably just more efficient than your previous speakers, or you've got the receiver channel settings louder, thus it takes less master volume to get to -8 on the receiver. It could also be because they are in a different room now (they still are, right?).

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post #2947 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I'm getting a little confused (and some of that has to do with this thread). If you are playing music with heavy bass content below, say, 60 Hz, And you crank up the volume on the ST to super high levels, the woofers will bottom out, and bottom out sooner than some speakers with larger drivers. The transmission line tuning helps delay this, I think, but it's inevitable. If there isn't a lot of heavy content bass content, I doubt that there would be much difference in the ultimate SPL levels. The CA15 woofers in parallel, with the loading Paul K designed, don't come near their excursion limits. And the 0W1 tweet is very robust. So I don't think there's much mystery here. If loooouuuuud reproduction of bass is your cup of musical tea, then it may be worthwhile spending more on a speaker with larger, more robust woofers. Or investing in a sub.

Dennis, I think the message is clear and you are certainly right, all this talk was about when we were running all of these speakers in 2 channel audio only... and what we found was that 1 speaker out of 3 handled more power and hit higher SPL's..... but realistically when run with a sub and crossed over at 60, 80 or 100hz you would probably never have this problem. In all honesty it didn't occur to me that we never introduced a sub into the mix. For HT or 2 channel with a sub, i would imagine that it would be much much harder to reach the limits like we did in this scenario.

I will admit that I do have an affinity for heavy bass, but I don't believe that was what we gathered these speakers together to begin with. It was an honest testing of individual speakers and the comparisons between them for analytical purposes.

I'll admit my lack of consideration in this scenario.... I honestly meant no disrespect
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post #2948 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I will admit that I do have an affinity for heavy bass, but I don't believe that was what we gathered these speakers together to begin with. It was an honest testing of individual speakers and the comparisons between them for analytical purposes.

I'll admit my lack of consideration in this scenario.... I honestly meant no disrespect

Disrespect? Not at all. You're showing me way too much respect. I was just trying to sort out bass issues from absolute volume issues. Jim sells speakers with wildly different bass handling capabilities. And so do a lot of other companies. So you have to sort out your priorities a little before you start to audition speakers, and not bring any unrealistic expectations into the audition. 5" isn't a lot in any context.
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post #2949 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Are you saying the woofers bottom out at -8 to -10 or you can't stand it any louder than that? If it's the later, the HT3's are probably just more efficient than your previous speakers, or you've got the receiver channel settings louder, thus it takes less master volume to get to -8 on the receiver. It could also be because they are in a different room now (they still are, right?).

I am saying I can't stand it any louder than +8.0 db or thereabouts. I prefer listening at -8.0, -10.0 and 0.0db for different types of content but bon jovi at +10.0db is not bearable for more than a few minutes. Its still very pleasant and I can feel the sound moving air (vibrating the couch even) but headache later in the day if I don't turn down the volume within a minute or two.
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post #2950 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmed View Post

bon jovi at +10.0db is not bearable for more than a few minutes.

Not sure the volume has anything to do with that.
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post #2951 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drab View Post

Not sure the volume has anything to do with that.

You know I was afraid of that

I don't even let my ipod out in the open for fear of people discovering my true taste in music
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post #2952 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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^ LOL!

Warpdrv, you weren't and aren't disrespecting anyone bro. No worries dude. We want the truth and nothing but the truth!

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post #2953 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 07:30 PM
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Warp... I know this is off topic so forgive me... But you should give Canton speakers a listen if you have the chance. Their vento and reference lines especially. I think they would suit your tastes really well in the mid's and hig's as well as bass. They really like to rock!

And now back to your previously hijacked thread.
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post #2954 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

or you've got the receiver channel settings louder, thus it takes less master volume to get to -8 on the receiver.

What should be the receiver input setting? I have it at 0.0db, is that the reason I find 100db unimaginable?
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post #2955 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 07:47 PM
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So after listening to the SongTower's for a while longer, I thought they sort of sounded thin when starting to crank the volume. Perhaps "thin" isn't really the right word, but the sound seemed sort of "small" (not the soundstage, though). Sort of like I was listening to those little tiny computer speakers at high volumes. So then I turned my sub back on, the issue went away (or at least I think it did, I'm still listening...). I think I was just asking a little too much of the SongTower's.

I think Dennis pretty much hit the nail on the head, there is only so much you can ask the drivers of the SongTower's. In my large open basement, there is just too much volume for the small drivers.
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post #2956 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmed View Post

What should be the receiver input setting? I have it at 0.0db, is that the reason I find 100db unimaginable?

The receiver level is not telling you the volume output in DB. It is likely displaying the level of attenuation, meaning when it shows -8 db that is -8 decibels from full volume.
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post #2957 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Superstar View Post

So after listening to the SongTower's for a while longer, I thought they sort of sounded thin when starting to crank the volume. Perhaps "thin" isn't really the right word, but the sound seemed sort of "small" (not the soundstage, though). Sort of like I was listening to those little tiny computer speakers at high volumes. So then I turned my sub back on, the issue went away (or at least I think it did, I'm still listening...). I think I was just asking a little too much of the SongTower's.

I think Dennis pretty much hit the nail on the head, there is only so much you can ask the drivers of the SongTower's. In my large open basement, there is just too much volume for the small drivers.

I've found that room size has less of an effect on mid to treble output than does the distance you sit from the speakers. How far away is your listening seat? Can you move it closer? If you can, it could save you from an upgrade just to get more output.
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post #2958 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

I had "oldtexasdog" over to my house tonight to audition the SongTowers. He had previously listened to B&W 683, Vandersteen 2a Sig (I think correct me if I'm wrong here) and a few others.

We listened to a Stevie Ray Vaughn live performance, as well as Brian Setzer Orchestra "Live in Japan. Neither recording was perfect and the SongTowers revealed the flaws of the recordings. I felt that Vaughn was a little "raw". Not surprising as it was recorded "live" in 1972 but what stood out the most was the clarity of the vocals. Mike (oldtexasdog) felt that the word that kept coming to mind was "CLEAR". He kept repeating this word and that the midrange "was definitely there". I felt the strongest aspect of the Vaughn recording were the meaty male vocals. So real and when they were playing guitar, bass, and drums all together it was just divine. All the details were there reproduced faithfully. Each instrument felt like it had its own speaker

The Setzer recording to me was way too bright. Aside from that though I really did like the guitar work here. He was the only amplified performer on the stage, and you could very clearly hear his fret work or fingers sliding across the strings.

I feel like I get the most time to listen to these speakers with music when I demo them to other people

Mike told me the one thing he stil loved about his speakers was "the surround sound" but when I put in 300, with all 5 Salk speakers and the Epik Tower playing I think he suddenly realized what's currently possible in home theater

I heard a lot of "oh my god"ing during this time and it was truly awesome to hear the surround effects of the battle scenes. The subwoofer is also ridiculous in this movie.

Enough about all that, just wanted to share my thoughts of the evening. Now to finish my New Belgium Trippel

-Chad

EDIT: I also should mention that Mike felt that the B&W 683's offered almost "nothing" in comparison. He said they were not even in the same league. At $1500/pair the 683's couldn't hold a candle in any department to the SongTowers. The Vandersteens he mentioned sounded great and he found a nice deal on some used ones. He felt that their "sweet spot" was very narrow compared to the SongTowers. He even once walked up to my SongCenter to make it was not playing The soundstage apparently was so huge it was hard to believe

Chad, Thanks again for your hospitality!
In retrospect you have narrowed my selection down to 2 as I have yet to audition the Totem Hawks.
Your assement on the B&W's is correct. The Song Towers are just so much better in range, and the sound field, I feel, there is no comparison. The B&W 683's have been eliminated.
Now, between the Song Towers and the Vandersteen Ce SigII, that's a horse of a different color. I do not say this lightly. The difference between the ways the two handle sounds is total different. Meaning, two totally different sounds. The Vandersteen is diaphanous while the ST's are direct and clean, both a beautifull experience. It's hard to put into words, but I will try, while the impressions are fresh in my mind. The ST's give you the feeling that you are right there where it's happening, no BS, no coloration, very clean, (at any volume we listened to, are the neighbors still trying to measure the Richter scale?) Some might feel this is harsh, just like someone that just tells you like it is without prejudice, and I find this refreshing, whether it be in my women or speakers, because it keeps you on top of what's happening if that makes sense.
The Vandies, on the other hand, remind me of a perception of sound I had once when I had been severely burned and the hospital gave me a big shot of morphineJ I remember laying on my sofa and it seemed I could not only hear a pin drop but hear it dropping. The feeling was that the sound surrounded you in a soft cloud with every detail present, and while you could tell where the sound was coming from, it was not a point in space, as it tended to move and vibrate. A beautiful way to listen to music, but not to listen to movies in surround. Also, as I have come to understand the placement and equipment used, (down to the wires and biwiring), can affect the ability to achieve this particular state. My room placement is limited, so I think, rather than take a gamble, I will pass. Now next weekend on to the Totem HawksJ
This is just my impression and believe me I abused my ears in my misspent youth at many a concert that left them ringing for days. Shoot, we used to lay on our backs at the end of the runway at Love Field in the 60's just to watch and hear the jets go over us.
I wish to thank everyone again and will post my thoughts on the Totems next weekend.
Mike

There are two holes in Daddys head where all the money goes.
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post #2959 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 08:49 PM
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OTD -

That is the most entertaining description of sound I've read in a long time. I feel like I got a contact high from reading it.

BTW - clean and direct are not the same as harsh. You'll know harsh when you hear it. It'll make you you want to turn the volume down.
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post #2960 of 9207 Old 02-04-2009, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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^ Agreed, Hifi. I enjoyed reading that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynfan View Post

Warp... I know this is off topic so forgive me... But you should give Canton speakers a listen if you have the chance. Their vento and reference lines especially. I think they would suit your tastes really well in the mid's and hig's as well as bass. They really like to rock!

And now back to your previously hijacked thread.

I know someone who owns the Ergo 900's. I can get Patrick an audition if he wants one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmed View Post

What should be the receiver input setting? I have it at 0.0db, is that the reason I find 100db unimaginable?

100dB is loud to anyone, well...maybe not warpdrv. Zing!! Sorry, couldn't help it.

What you want to do is level match the channels using the test tones built into the receiver. Grab an SPL meter and set it to C, weighted, then run the tone through each individual speaker. Match them all to 75dB exactly, then listen again. It might still be loud, it might not. If it is, it's probably because of the difference in room and efficiency. This is not a bad thing at all, as the actual numbers on the receiver's volume aren't the same as the actual dB level you are hearing. What does matter is that everything is level matched to the same dB. Then you can just turn it up or down to get the desired volume. In other words, you don't need to listen at your old listening numbers according to the receiver. Your ears or an SPL meter will tell you when the volume gets too loud, and to my ears, 100dB is TOO LOUD. You will ruin your hearing if you listen at those levels for extended periods of time.

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post #2961 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I've found that room size has less of an effect on mid to treble output than does the distance you sit from the speakers. How far away is your listening seat? Can you move it closer? If you can, it could save you from an upgrade just to get more output.

I sit about 10' away from the speakers. Technically, I could move the couch closer, but it's pretty much the right distance to the 50" plasma TV :-). I suppose I could always move the speakers a little more forward.

Edit: I should note that I thought the mid & treble sounded good at high volumes, it just seemed like the sound lacked "body". (it's hard to describe sound, sorry for weird words...). This made it seem like the sound was "small" (yet, at a high volume). I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone else, I'm trying to find better words...
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post #2962 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Superstar View Post

I sit about 10' away from the speakers. Technically, I could move the couch closer, but it's pretty much the right distance to the 50" plasma TV :-). I suppose I could always move the speakers a little more forward.

Edit: I should note that I thought the mid & treble sounded good at high volumes, it just seemed like the sound lacked "body". (it's hard to describe sound, sorry for weird words...). This made it seem like the sound was "small" (yet, at a high volume). I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone else, I'm trying to find better words...

I'm assuming that you have moved the ST's closer to the wall? You may be experiencing a lack of midbass and moving them back should definitely help them get some "room gain". I am almost willing to bet on this.
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post #2963 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynfan View Post

Warp... I know this is off topic so forgive me... But you should give Canton speakers a listen if you have the chance. Their vento and reference lines especially. I think they would suit your tastes really well in the mid's and hig's as well as bass. They really like to rock!

And now back to your previously hijacked thread.

Thanks Wes.....

I have heard the Cantons over at Flanners, but it really didn't give them much consideration at the time as they were well out of my pricerange back then. I'll have to try to revisit them, but I still think there are speakers out there that sound as good or better for less money...
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post #2964 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 06:57 AM
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strange I could here 17khz but not again until I went up to 12khz. I would think if I could here 17 I should be able to hear 16? Speaker problem or hearing problem?
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post #2965 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

I'm assuming that you have moved the ST's closer to the wall? You may be experiencing a lack of midbass and moving them back should definitely help them get some "room gain". I am almost willing to bet on this.

I haven't moved the ST's from their original location. They are around 1' to 1.5' from the rear wall (so they are actually pretty close). I'll try to take a picture when I get home tonight.

When I have the volume at a "normal" level, the bass output is quite sufficient. It's only when I turn the volume up that I notice the issue.
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post #2966 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Superstar View Post

I haven't moved the ST's from their original location. They are around 1' to 1.5' from the rear wall (so they are actually pretty close). I'll try to take a picture when I get home tonight.

When I have the volume at a "normal" level, the bass output is quite sufficient. It's only when I turn the volume up that I notice the issue.

Gotcha. If you are 18" from the wall then going to 12-14" will help quite a bit. i experimented with this on Tuesday night actually. I don't need to do it in my room, but every room is different. If you are already at 12" then you shouldn't move it much closer. The bass was ALMOST starting to get boomy right at 12".

-Chad
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post #2967 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmed View Post

What should be the receiver input setting? I have it at 0.0db, is that the reason I find 100db unimaginable?

On your Elite receiver, did you run the "auto-calibration" with the included microphone? If you have, then 0.0 db is the THX reference level (per the THX certification requirements). Below is a good primer on this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-1.html

"Reference" is a high/loud volume (perceived), so most people listen to -10 db (or somewhere in between). Note, you are guaranteed not to digitally clip when played at THX reference level, but if you turn up above reference, all bets are off.

However, this is only true for THX mastered movie (though DD and DTS are going to be very similar). For non-movie material, all bets are off! Music, especially today's masters, are heavily compressed and mastered "hot". This means the music is very near the maximum "digital" volume with no regard for "normal" or "reference". This is why "REPLAY-GAIN" was introduced. It is trying to create a "reference" sound level similar to what movies have with THX/DD/DTS. If you ever look at the REPLAY-GAIN of today's music, you'll see many -10 db corrections.

So, my guess with the Bon Jovi music is +10 is already very loud, and if the cut the track loud (REPLAY GAIN of -10), you are effectively at +20 db. This is huge!
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post #2968 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by jhuang View Post

On your Elite receiver, did you run the "auto-calibration" with the included microphone? If you have, then 0.0 db is the THX reference level (per the THX certification requirements). Below is a good primer on this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-1.html

"Reference" is a high/loud volume (perceived), so most people listen to -10 db (or somewhere in between). Note, you are guaranteed not to digitally clip when played at THX reference level, but if you turn up above reference, all bets are off.

However, this is only true for THX mastered movie (though DD and DTS are going to be very similar). For non-movie material, all bets are off! Music, especially today's masters, are heavily compressed and mastered "hot". This means the music is very near the maximum "digital" volume with no regard for "normal" or "reference". This is why "REPLAY-GAIN" was introduced. It is trying to create a "reference" sound level similar to what movies have with THX/DD/DTS. If you ever look at the REPLAY-GAIN of today's music, you'll see many -10 db corrections.

So, my guess with the Bon Jovi music is +10 is already very loud, and if the cut the track loud (REPLAY GAIN of -10), you are effectively at +20 db. This is huge!

The dumbed down version of this:

* Calibrate your speakers. Use the auto calibration in your receiver, or Rad Shack SPL meter and test tones to tone all speakers to 75db.
* When watching movies never go above 00 on the volume. Most of us listen somewhere between -10 and -05 for our "reference" or loudest levels. Some like to push it to 00, but never above.
* When listening to music well recorded discs can be pushed to 00 if you know the signal isn't clipped. Many "modern" music discs have no standard for how they should be mixed/mastered and shouldn't be pushed above 00 under any circumstance, but almost all should be listened to at -10 or quieter.

This is all of course assuming you performed the calibration step first
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post #2969 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

The dumbed down version of this:

* Calibrate your speakers. Use the auto calibration in your receiver, or Rad Shack SPL meter and test tones to tone all speakers to 75db.
* When watching movies never go above 00 on the volume. Most of us listen somewhere between -10 and -05 for our "reference" or loudest levels. Some like to push it to 00, but never above.
* When listening to music well recorded discs can be pushed to 00 if you know the signal isn't clipped. Many "modern" music discs have no standard for how they should be mixed/mastered and shouldn't be pushed above 00 under any circumstance, but almost all should be listened to at -10 or quieter.

This is all of course assuming you performed the calibration step first

When getting the speakers to 75 db what should you have the dail set to, 0.0 or turn it up until the meter reads 75 db then go around the room?

Rahimlee54

Just turned on my first projector on 17 Aug 2007 and I think I am hooked :).

Why does everyone that comes over ask how much it cost?
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post #2970 of 9207 Old 02-05-2009, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rahimlee54 View Post

When getting the speakers to 75 db what should you have the dail set to, 0.0 or turn it up until the meter reads 75 db then go around the room?

Rahimlee54

Test tones always output at a constant volume regardless of what your receiver's volume level is at. I used to be confused by this too, but then realized it was set to come out close to 75db regardless. This will of course vary depending on the sensitivity of the speakers you are using, but should always be close. So you don't need to worry what your volume setting is when you run test tones.
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