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post #1 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I know that there are a couple forums closely related to this topic, but I need help. I am in the market for my first EVER component home theater system. I work for a retail store and have mixed feelings on what speakers to go with.

I have always been a Klipsch fan because of there quality sound and competitive pricing. However, whenever I talk to magnolia employees they all say def tech's are the way to go.

What is confusing to me is that all the specs you read, klipsch seem to be better on paper (max watts, sensitivity, etc.). But everyone seem to say def techs have a more natural sound when klipsch on more focused on "highs".

I just want some opinions from you guys/gals. I plan on hooking up my speakers (what ever route I go) with a Yamaha receiver (RX-V3800) and I just want to be happy with the amount of money I plan to invest.

What are you guys thoughts on the best speaker option Definitive Technology vs. Klipsch Reference?

P.S. I love watching movies with my fiancee and am really passionate about music and I like to play xbox 360!
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post #2 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 12:53 PM
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If you work retail you need to judge for yourself, take some time to listen to these speakers. The problem I have with Klipsch is the way the midrange gets pushed back especially as the volume goes up.

There are others I can recommmend but my assumption is you work at magnolia and probably want to use the discount.

edit: one more thing if you really are into music I would not go klipsch personally...they are a really good home theater speaker but the lack of midrange compared with other speakers bothers me.
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post #3 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey I do NOT work for magnolia and I have listened to the all the speakers. Everytime I go there though there is just music playing and I do not know how to set-up the speakers for different settings.

So I just wanted to know some other people opinion on the best overall quality!

Thanks for the reply though!

Edit: WHat other speakers would you recommend me to listen to that you referred to on your post?
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post #4 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenone View Post

Hey I do NOT work for magnolia and I have listened to the all the speakers. Everytime I go there though there is just music playing and I do not know how to set-up the speakers for different settings.

So I just wanted to know some other people opinion on the best overall quality!

Thanks for the reply though!

Edit: WHat other speakers would you recommend me to listen to that you referred to on your post?

Speakers that you need to hear, Paradigm and PSB....what is your budget?

Also if you're not scared of internet direct you may checkout Swan, that is what I ultimately decided on.

The paradigm Monitor 9's are MUCH better than the Klipsch RF62 and RF82 when it comes to music. At least in my opinion. I posted a review, I will try to dig it up for you and post it in this thread.
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post #5 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenone View Post

I know that there are a couple forums closely related to this topic, but I need help. I am in the market for my first EVER component home theater system. I work for a retail store and have mixed feelings on what speakers to go with.

I have always been a Klipsch fan because of there quality sound and competitive pricing. However, whenever I talk to magnolia employees they all say def tech's are the way to go.

What is confusing to me is that all the specs you read, klipsch seem to be better on paper (max watts, sensitivity, etc.). But everyone seem to say def techs have a more natural sound when klipsch on more focused on "highs".

I just want some opinions from you guys/gals. I plan on hooking up my speakers (what ever route I go) with a Yamaha receiver (RX-V3800) and I just want to be happy with the amount of money I plan to invest.

What are you guys thoughts on the best speaker option Definitive Technology vs. Klipsch Reference?



P.S. I love watching movies with my fiancee and am really passionate about music and I like to play xbox 360!

Which specific models are you considering from each?

The reason I ask is that if you are considering a bipolar Def Tech versus a direct radiating Klipsch, you have two completely different approaches to loudspeaker design.

Neither approach is "right" or "wrong", but you will get a different soundstage.
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post #6 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 01:01 PM
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Here you go chosenone, these are my thoughts from about 4 weeks ago after another extensive audition on both speakers


First of all let me say again that this rather extensive audition involved just music as that will be the primary use of my speakers.

Secondly the new reference line just kills the older line in my book. It is far smoother and has a more natural sound than prior reference lines.

Now as for the evaluation, I compared the RF-62s and the RF-82s directly to the Paradigm Monitor 9s. This was done on an integra 2 channel receiver at 100W/channel.

My primary concern was with the RF-62 as I assumed the 82s would be too boomy and drowned out the mids (I was right).

For the entire test we had the EQ set to flat. We began with some Metallica S&M (san francisco philharmonic in the background). I've found this 2 disc collection to have some fantastically tough sound to reproduce.

I started on the Klipsch, played a song on the RF62 then the same song on the Monitor 9. Difference started to become very appearant just a few seconds into the first song on the Monitor 9s. At moderate levels of volume the highs on the RF62s were pretty good but you could definately tell they were a brighter speaker than the paradigm's, the mids were also not bad. The lows were accurate and pretty full.

As I began A/Bing the speakers during the same song the differences became even more appearant. The midrange was much more lifelike on the paradigms as each instrument from the guitars to the violins had a very clear and distinct presence with distance between each instrument if that makes sense. The seperation was better on the paradigm.

As we increased the volume level the Klipsch played very VERY loud with little effort on the high side, but it seemed the louder it got the more the mids sort of sank to the back. They became much more distant. Also doing A/Bing in sections with good bass drum kicks and base lines the RF-62 seemed to get a little a sloppy with what sounded like cabinet resonance (this really surprised me). Now having said that the low end on the Klipsch remained prevelant but didn't sound as tight. The highs became quite piercing at high levels. (some may prefer this it is simply not to my liking) The paradigms also began to feel a bit bright as we approached 0 on the volume indicator (or reference volume I guess is what its called). While they were bright they remained well controlled and tighter than the klipsch did. But the low end presence was more prominent on the klipsch at high volumes than it was on the paradigm, but the paradigm's remained more accurate.

The RF-82 really didn't even come close to these two in overall sound quality. The mids just become too distant on the RF-82 as the orchestra sounded muffled and almost as if they were playing on a set of very small low quality speakers. The bass extension was much better on the RF-82 however but despite trying various cross over points I couldn't get the mids to come back to life on the 82. At that point I crossed the 82's off for good.

Next up was a test with the new Maroon 5 CD. I'm very familiar with this cd which is a reason I chose it to do more evaluation. The paradigms once again sounded far better overall. Although the Klispch did a better job hitting some of the lows in a couple of the songs, as volume increased the sloppy sound came back as if the drivers were being over worked. As with the metallica cd the mids seemed to fad as volumes increased. At this point I spent the remaining 20 minutes or so listening to the paradigm and crossing in the sub at various points.

edit: I'm making a couple of additions here because I've just remembered a couple of things I'd like to add...

At lower volume levels the Klipsch sounded pretty good. The highs were a bit bright but not harsh and the mids were there. As you apply power and not much is when things begin to feel a bit artificial with the Klipsch horn style tweeter. It wasn't bad, but it definately wasn't great. As you approach 1W of power (isn't much I know but as effecient as both speakers are it was a reaosnable volume) there was a distinct difference in the sound between the two. The Paradigm was smoother and more natural and the horn style tweater seemed to add a bit of a nasal sound or a tiny/hollow sound. I'm not really sure how to explain it to be honest. It was not gross or anything but definately different. The bass even at lower volumes was good on the Klipsch but more natural on the Paradigm, this became especially noticable once again as you approach 1W.

The RF-62 is indeed a good speaker. I still came away impressed with the progress klipsch has made in this latest line. But for me its worth spending the extra money on the Paradigms. They just came across as more accurate and much stronger in the mid range performance. So now I've gotta listen to some Paradigm and PSB stuff some more.

Hope this helps and I'm NOT trying to piss off the Klipsch crew just posting my thoughts on what I preferred.
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post #7 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

Which specific models are you considering from each?

The reason I ask is that if you are considering a bipolar Def Tech versus a direct radiating Klipsch, you have two completely different approaches to loudspeaker design.

Neither approach is "right" or "wrong", but you will get a different soundstage.

That is very true.
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post #8 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 01:29 PM
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chosenone,

you say you prefer the klipsch quality sound...that's a good start

i would'nt put too much stock in spec sheets, when it comes to speakers, you just need to LISTEN

take two or three of your fav cd's and go compare...take your time, this part is big fun!
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post #9 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 04:12 PM
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I wouldn't use either.

Klipsch Reference aren't reference grade and Definitive Technology is not definitve technology.
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post #10 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post

I wouldn't use either.

Klipsch Reference aren't reference grade and Definitive Technology is not definitve technology.

hey, this could be fun...

paradigm is not the paradigm

utopia be's won't be the utopia

anyone else...?
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post #11 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys I have never heard of paradigms and I will look into them more. 6speed you did not talk a lot about def tech's do you not care for them?

I'm new to speakers so I am pretty excited to get to the demo room and try out what you guys said. If I demo them at Best Buy how do I know if the setting are on flat. I hear a lot of people referring to this "flat" setting.

Also not to sound stupid but I am having a hard time locating "paradigm" speakers for demo purposes (sorry newbie!!). Where can I go to demo these? Are they located at Best Buy?

Thanks for all your help guys!
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post #12 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post

I wouldn't use either.

Klipsch Reference aren't reference grade and Definitive Technology is not definitve technology.

I was thinking the same thing. You beat me to it.
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post #13 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 08:24 PM
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Using 5 Def Tech speakers, including 2 towers in living room setup. Out of all the speakers I listened to I prefered these. Perhaps I'd go different if your primary usage will be music. Mine is tv/hd dvd/xbox360 - almost 100%. Music is setup in a different room with all the dj gear.

It all comes down to what sounds best to you. Dont listen to the haters and give everything you listen to an equal shot.
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post #14 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharcyde23 View Post

Using 5 Def Tech speakers, including 2 towers in living room setup. Out of all the speakers I listened to I prefered these. Perhaps I'd go different if your primary usage will be music. Mine is tv/hd dvd/xbox360 - almost 100%. Music is setup in a different room with all the dj gear.

It all comes down to what sounds best to you. Dont listen to the haters and give everything you listen to an equal shot.

i don't think i would call them "haters" per se...just can't resist posting i guess

you see the "what can i get for $500" threads get answers like "for just $250 more you could get..."

same type...
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post #15 of 60 Old 01-05-2008, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefthandluke View Post

i don't think i would call them "haters" per se...just can't resist posting i guess

you see the "what can i get for $500" threads get answers like "for just $250 more you could get..."

same type...

i love reading those posts "can you stretch your budget?" "why dont you get A and save up for a few years to get B" ....not necessarily bad advice just probably not what the OP was looking for.

Also dont know why someone would come into a Klipsch v Def Tech thread and say "dont get either"

I auditioned both and if had to pick between the 2, for music I'd go Klipsch; movies, games etc..Def Tech. Although dont get me wrong my BP7006's coupled with an HSU 2.3 have handled a variety of music very nicely in 2ch stereo.
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post #16 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 07:49 AM
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6Speed:

Klipsch now has the RF63 and RF83 Speakers that have been out for a few months. They are supposed to have a much better sound than the RF62 and RF82.

If you go to www.hometheatermag.com, you can read a full review on the RF83's and matching center and surrounds. From my calculations, they gave the RF83's one of the highest scores I've ever seen from Home Theater and it was a rave review.

I have not heard these speakers but definitely worth considering, especially considering the price.
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post #17 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharcyde23 View Post

Also dont know why someone would come into a Klipsch v Def Tech thread and say "dont get either"


Why for the amusement of course.
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post #18 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post

Why for the amusement of course.

Your own obviously. Judging from your previous posts it's clear to see you're no Klipsch fan. So how about offering the OP some constructive advice instead...
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post #19 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharcyde23 View Post

Your own obviously. Judging from your previous posts it's clear to see you're no Klipsch fan. So how about offering the OP some constructive advice instead...


Constructive advice---I advise the OP to listen for himself and make up his own mind. When a poster is looking for subjective information that's the most useful advice.

By the way, I've stated that I like some Klipsch speakers; the Cornwall, Khorn and Jubilee. And I've owned several Klipsch speakers.
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post #20 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyDaves View Post

6Speed:

Klipsch now has the RF63 and RF83 Speakers that have been out for a few months. They are supposed to have a much better sound than the RF62 and RF82.

If you go to www.hometheatermag.com, you can read a full review on the RF83's and matching center and surrounds. From my calculations, they gave the RF83's one of the highest scores I've ever seen from Home Theater and it was a rave review.

I have not heard these speakers but definitely worth considering, especially considering the price.

I own the RF-83 fronts, RC-64 center, and RS-62 sides and surrounds.
Let me tell you that the RF-83 or RF-63 are an order of magnitude better speaker than the RF-82 or RF-63.

RF-83 brings out incredible amount of detail that 90% of the other speakers just do not reproduce. and the dynamic capability of this speaker (surround set-up) is something that other speakers just can't touch.
RF-63/83s are 99dB/watt efficiency, requiring only 4 watts to reach THX reference level of 105 dB. The Def Techs (91 db/watt - presume you are talking about Mythos 2) need about 25 watts to get to the same level.

Now lets touch on the most important factor when choosing speakers, which is dynamics (related to efficiency).

Transient dynamics require 10+ dB of speaker/amp capability, thus we are talking about reproducing dymaic peaks of 115+ dB.

The Klipsch reaches this level with ease requiring only about 40 watts of power.
Def Techs need 256 watts to reproduce these peaks, thus with a typical AV receiver you get clipping and do not reach the level - you get about 112 dB with a 130 watt/channel receiver.

(an 86 db/watt efficient speaker needs about 90 watts to get to THX level and almost 1000 watts to reproduce 10dB dynamic peaks)

The Klipsch RF-83/63 will get you to 120 dB with the same receiver - talk about dynamics!!

So if you like the Klipsch sound, do yourself a favor and audition the RF-63 or RF-83. You will not be disappointed.

If you end up choosing less efficient speakers and you want reproduce the dynamic peaks as well as the Klipsch, you will need to buy an outboard 500 to 1000 watts/channels amplifier. This needs to be factored into your speaker cost equation.

Speaker 1 Def Tech Klipsch RF-83
dB watts dB watts dB watts
86 1 86 0.25 87 0.06
89 2 89 0.5 90 0.13
92 4 91 1 93 0.25
95 8 94 2 96 0.50
98 16 97 4 99 1
101 32 100 8 102 2
104 64 103 16 105 4
107 128 106 32 108 8
110 256 109 64 111 16
113 512 112 128 114 32
116 1024 115 256 117 64
119 2048 118 512 120 128
122 4096 121 1024 123 256
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post #21 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosenone View Post

Thanks guys I have never heard of paradigms and I will look into them more. 6speed you did not talk a lot about def tech's do you not care for them?

I'm new to speakers so I am pretty excited to get to the demo room and try out what you guys said. If I demo them at Best Buy how do I know if the setting are on flat. I hear a lot of people referring to this "flat" setting.

Also not to sound stupid but I am having a hard time locating "paradigm" speakers for demo purposes (sorry newbie!!). Where can I go to demo these? Are they located at Best Buy?

Thanks for all your help guys!

Well I've only heard three different def techs. Each model will vary substantially in sound. So I do not think I should judge the entire line based on the few samples I've heard. I have heard about everything from Klipsch, Paradigm, BA, Infinity, Polk, Bose and others.

The def techs I heard I was not particularly fond of. The midrange just seemed too distant. Could have been the listening situation or the particular speakers I heard. The pb10s (I think) had built in 10 inch woofer in each tower. Those were decent for home theater but entirely too boomy and inaccurate for music IMO.
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post #22 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 10:27 AM
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Dionyz is raising a great point on speaker effeciency and for home theater klipsch is great. But even with another brand speaker 105, 110, 115DB is VERY VERY loud in an enclosed area such as a living room.

Also Dionyz is right the RF63 and RF83 do sound better than the 82/62 but for the money you can do a lot better for music IMO. In fact for music I still prefer the Paradigm 9's over the 82/62 and this is especially true as volume's start to increase. The lack of a dedicated midrange driver really hurts the klipsch IMO.

This is a pretty good link for DB comparisons...
http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/hearingloss.cfm
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post #23 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 02:29 PM
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Do trust your own ears. I really enjoy my klipsch 82's. I have alot of carpet and cushions in my room and I have a warm receiver. With those conditions I found that the Klipsch just gave the dynamics and clarity I wanted over others I auditioned.

I am sure there are better speakers in the price range. Then again, no matter what speaker you buy there will be someone that prefers another brand for the same price. You received some very good feedback on why some people do not like the klipsch so I definately have no argument against them. I just liked them best out of what I heard for my ears.
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post #24 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 02:47 PM
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Dionyz----Your little math lesson isn't figuring in the effects of dynamic compression which will be considrable with only 3-8" direct radiating woofers as with the RF-83. Somewhere over 100db a doubling of power in WILL NOT give an increase of 3db in output and I doubt that those speakers will hit 120db regardless of power applied. Indeed it's not uncommon to see speakers that act only as heatsinks at high power, accepting more power but giving no increase in output.

Of course if the woofers have enough xmax they may hit 120db but I kind'a doubt it. Not to mention that such long stroking will cause increased IM and doppler distortion of the midrange, something Klipsch was dead set against when Paul Klipsch ran the company and dedicated midrange drivers were usually used and efforts made to hold woofer excursion to a minimum.

I doubt the RF 83s are 100db efficient anyway. Either that or they're not hitting the claimed 29hz F3, not in a 4 cubic foot box. Hoffman's Iron Law: small box, deep bass, high efficiency. Pick any two.

Doesn't an "order of magnitude" mean an increase by ten times? If so how do you figure any speaker is "an order of magnitude" better than another?
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post #25 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 03:17 PM
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I may not know as much as many of the individuals in this forum when it comes to technical information regarding these or any speakers for that matter.

However, I do own a pair of RF63s, an RC-62, and a pair of RB-61s for rear surrounds and have been nothing but impressed by the sound produced by these speakers.

I chose these speakers because, to my ears, they produced a better sound, especially for the price, than the B&W, Paradigm, and Polk speakers I listened too. Of course that was just to my ears and I think thats the key here.

If it sounds good to you, my opinion and the opinion of everyone in this forum shouldn't matter. You are the one that has to live with your decision.
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post #26 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 03:19 PM
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Tom you've hit the nail on the head. The 83 and 63 use a special high excursion woofer design. As I said in my review of the 62/82 the midrange becomes very VERY recessed and distorted. The 83 and 63 while a better speaker by a substantial margin still has the same affects. The drivers just get sloppy IMO, they're trying to do too much work, the lack of a dedicated midrange really hurts them above 1 watt of power and it really comes into play before then.
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post #27 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watsonte View Post

If it sounds good to you, my opinion and the opinion of everyone in this forum shouldn't matter. You are the one that has to live with your decision.


Indeed.
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post #28 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 04:59 PM
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I think speakers and recievers have no real right or wrong implementations.
Yes even Bose does fine enough for some people.
I prefer Klipsch to Def Tech simply cause their louder and more directionalized.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #29 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

Tom you've hit the nail on the head. The 83 and 63 use a special high excursion woofer design. As I said in my review of the 62/82 the midrange becomes very VERY recessed and distorted. The 83 and 63 while a better speaker by a substantial margin still has the same affects. The drivers just get sloppy IMO, they're trying to do too much work, the lack of a dedicated midrange really hurts them above 1 watt of power and it really comes into play before then.

I do not think either one of you have listened to the RF-83 extensively to be spouting these erroneous opinions.

I have listened to the RF-83s & RF-63s, comparing them with Paradigm and Def Techs and the Klipsch speakers were cleaner and smoother across the full range.

You only keep spouting myths (preconceived notions) about lack of a dedicated midrange driver impacting sound quality without doing open minded listening without worring about the drivers.

The RF-83 play cleaner and to much louder levels than Def Techs or Paradigms. I have been listening extensively in my home to both music and HT with absolutely NO distortion -so please stop spouting BS.
I have however heard other spekers distort at much lower levels to certain extent due to low efficiency and thus running into amplifier clipping before getting sufficient volume out of the speaker.

And where you really get lost is that anyone who has RF-83 and is serious about music and HT will have a real subwoofer to reproduce anything below 60Hz. Thus the 3 8" drivers of the RF-83 are handling the mid range duties and not bass (this is also the case for serious Paradigm and Def Tech owners).

I have the Epik Conquest (18", 1000 watts) to handle the bass and Onkyo 905 receiver. With this combination, the RF-83 get to painfully loud levels without turning up the receive even half way and there is absolutely no distortion.

So please go do some serious listenig to the RF-83s in a real world situation before you go arround lying and badmouthing.

Please note that I have said absoulutely nothing bad against either Def Tech or Paradigm, both of which I think are good speakers, IF you have sufficient amplifier power to drive them cleanly. (if you dont the amps clip and create distortion).
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post #30 of 60 Old 01-06-2008, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

I do not think either one of you have listened to the RF-83 extensively to be spouting these erroneous opinions.

I have listened to the RF-83s & RF-63s, comparing them with Paradigm and Def Techs and the Klipsch speakers were cleaner and smoother across the full range.

You only keep spouting myths (preconceived notions) about lack of a dedicated midrange driver impacting sound quality without doing open minded listening without worring about the drivers.

The RF-83 play cleaner and to much louder levels than Def Techs or Paradigms. I have been listening extensively in my home to both music and HT with absolutely NO distortion -so please stop spouting BS.
I have however heard other spekers distort at much lower levels to certain extent due to low efficiency and thus running into amplifier clipping before getting sufficient volume out of the speaker.

And where you really get lost is that anyone who has RF-83 and is serious about music and HT will have a real subwoofer to reproduce anything below 60Hz. Thus the 3 8" drivers of the RF-83 are handling the mid range duties and not bass (this is also the case for serious Paradigm and Def Tech owners).

I have the Epik Conquest (18", 1000 watts) to handle the bass and Onkyo 905 receiver. With this combination, the RF-83 get to painfully loud levels without turning up the receive even half way and there is absolutely no distortion.

So please go do some serious listenig to the RF-83s in a real world situation before you go arround lying and badmouthing.

Please note that I have said absoulutely nothing bad against either Def Tech or Paradigm, both of which I think are good speakers, IF you have sufficient amplifier power to drive them cleanly. (if you dont the amps clip and create distortion).

Consdering I have HOURS upon HOURS of klipsch listening under my belt including three hours of directly comparing various klipsch reference speakers to paradigm speakers I'm more than qualified to speak on it. Futhermore just because you disagree doesn't make you right or wrong. It is merely an opinion. The midrange gets drowned out considerably even at moderate volumes. The 82 and 83 is way to boomy for my taste. The 62 and 63 being the sweet spot of the reference line in my book. I personally dislike the Klipsch sound. You like it, thats fine! That is why there's a billion different speaker brands out there. If everyone preferred and appreciated the same sound we'd have ONE choice.

Also personally attacking members of this board and accusing them of lying and badmouthing products is just flat wrong. You bought what YOU preferred, thats great! Enjoy them! I personally do not prefer their sound.
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