How to avoid blowing speakers? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 44 Old 02-18-2014, 04:50 AM
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I have a Fisher RS-616 "Studio Standard" stereo receiver, manufactured circa 1992. It features a vacuum-tube amplifier, and the specifications page in its user manual contains the following:

POWER AMPLIFIER SECTION

Minimum RMS sine wave power per channel
within the stated bandwidth at no more than
the stated distortion and with an 8-ohm load .................................................... 60 Watts
Power Bandwidth ................................................................................. 20 Hz ~ 20 kHz
Total Harmonic Distortion ................................................................................. 0.07 %
I.M. Distortion ................................................................................................. 0.07 %
Speaker Damping ................................................................................................ >30

I also have two (2) B.I.C. Venturi V52 bookshelf loudspeakers, which were designed, engineered, and manufactured in the United States, circa 1992. They were sold individually, and the specifications page in each of their user manuals contains the following:

Characteristic Sensitivity ............................................................. 90dB@1 watt, 1 meter
Nominal Impedance ......................................................................................... 8 ohms
Recommended Amplifier Power .................................................................. 5 - 75 Watts

Did I do a good job of matching components?

Is the same detail of specification published today?

How does the performance of these products compare with that of those produced today?

Receiver/amplifier: Sony STR-DE598
Front speakers: BIC Venturi DV62si
Subwoofer: BIC RtR RtR-12S
Rear speakers: Klipsch Synergy B-20
Display: Samsung UN-46EH6000
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post #32 of 44 Old 02-18-2014, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dom Di Stroia View Post



Did I do a good job of matching components?

Is the same detail of specification published today?

How does the performance of these products compare with that of those produced today?

 

Welcome to the group.

 

As for your  questions I have no idea but you'd be better off starting your own thread rather then hijacking one thats 6 years old. 

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post #33 of 44 Old 02-18-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Eron View Post

Revived thread!! smile.gif



I hope my speakers are beefy enough to take what the AV-720 threw at it at max volume..

..
Therein lies the whole issue.

What is "max volume" Is it the maximum volume before it becomes distorted?

Or simply being able to turn the controls all the way up and hope for the best.? No matter how distorted the sound is?

If it is the later-then you need to have some serious speakers that are rated for far more than the power amp.

Underpowering WILL NOT blow up loudspeakers. In fact they LOVE it. HOWEVER-If you try to push a small amp to the point it becomes distorted and non linear-then you are no longer supplying a clean signal to the loudspeakers and all sorts of nasty things will happen.

Do not expect normal results from anything that is operated outside of its intended range. It does not matter if YOU want more-the gear is not capable of supplying it.

It is the same thing as trying to do 60 in first gear of your car (unless you have a real sports car-different story there). You are going to tear it up because you are trying to do something it was not designed to do-simple as that.

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post #34 of 44 Old 02-18-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by East Glenn View Post

Welcome to the group.

As for your  questions I have no idea but you'd be better off starting your own thread rather then hijacking one thats 6 years old. 

"The hijacking of one man is the re-ignition of another." - Anonymous

Receiver/amplifier: Sony STR-DE598
Front speakers: BIC Venturi DV62si
Subwoofer: BIC RtR RtR-12S
Rear speakers: Klipsch Synergy B-20
Display: Samsung UN-46EH6000
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post #35 of 44 Old 02-19-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Eron View Post

Revived thread!! smile.gif

So I was messing with Play to in windows the other day.. Sent an mp3 to my Yamaha AV-720 hooked to energy RC-70s and RC-LCR and rear RC-10's.. Well the little volume control bar within the play to function controls THE AMP volume directly and not just the windows output level..

grrrrrr!

SO of course, I set it to max in one click and Nazareth played at max volume for a few seconds before I was able to recover from sonic shock and lower it. I don't "think" I damaged anything at this point.. I am going to run a quick test tonight.. (any tips on testing individual speakers?)

I hope my speakers are beefy enough to take what the AV-720 threw at it at max volume..

Very angry at the play to function right now.. So stupid..

I am really hoping nothing is f'ed up..


Thanks for reviving this thread as I've just done almost exactly the same as you except  I was streaming iTunes via Airplay. It takes the volume from the setting on itunes, not the amp and I had maybe 30 secs of much louder sound than I normally play (34 on the dial, less than half of what it will go to, but uncomfortably loud) while I panicked at what was going on. I can't honestly tell you if the sound was distorted or not as I wasn't concentrating on that. The speakers are certainly not "blown", but I do wonder if their performance has been impaired because of this. It's a new system, the speakers have barely been run in, so its difficult to compare with how they were before. Is there anyway of checking or will it be obvious if there is damage? Speakers Dali Zensor 3, driven by a Marantz CR603.

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post #36 of 44 Old 02-20-2014, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by paddybliss View Post


Thanks for reviving this thread as I've just done almost exactly the same as you except  I was streaming iTunes via Airplay. It takes the volume from the setting on itunes, not the amp and I had maybe 30 secs of much louder sound than I normally play (34 on the dial, less than half of what it will go to, but uncomfortably loud) while I panicked at what was going on. I can't honestly tell you if the sound was distorted or not as I wasn't concentrating on that. The speakers are certainly not "blown", but I do wonder if their performance has been impaired because of this. It's a new system, the speakers have barely been run in, so its difficult to compare with how they were before. Is there anyway of checking or will it be obvious if there is damage? Speakers Dali Zensor 3, driven by a Marantz CR603.

Give them the smell test, when voice coils get hot they can have a burned electrical smell even before they blow. You have to get up close though. If the boxes are ported smell the port also.

Wishing I could post in the Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

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post #37 of 44 Old 02-21-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gferrell View Post


Give them the smell test, when voice coils get hot they can have a burned electrical smell even before they blow. You have to get up close though. If the boxes are ported smell the port also.


I've had them running for a few hours at medium volume, no smell whatsoever from the bass ports. I'll try again tomorrow when they've been running for a bit longer, but it doesn't seem to indicate anything amis.

 

What I'm concerned about is if there is any minor damage that could be affecting the sound quality? They're quite new and have only had about 70 hours run in before this, so I'm was only just getting used to the sound from them so its difficult to tell aurally. Is it likely they could be damaged like this, or should it be really obvious (by smell, sound or anything else) that there's something wrong?

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post #38 of 44 Old 02-21-2014, 03:59 PM
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I think your being a little paranoid. Decent speakers can go past uncomfortably loud before they get damaged. If you were only 34 on the dial, then you likely still had many decibels of headroom, and the super high wattage wasn't going to your speakers yet, as the watts are exponentially added when you hit the highest of high volumes. You would be surprised how loud 10 watts is on speakers with decent sensitivity. Seriously. It hurts. biggrin.gif

If the tweeter was damaged, you'd hear it right away. Probably would need to focus a bit more to hear a damaged woofer, but I think it would also be pretty obvious if you brought your head up to it while it played.
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post #39 of 44 Old 02-21-2014, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

If you listen fairly loud, you CANNOT boost bass or treble, even a little bit. If you boost treble 3 dB, for instance, you double the power demand in the treble region affected by the control.
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Originally Posted by lwien View Post


Totally agree, and a statement that is NOT widely known by the average consumer.

TOTAL NONSENSE!!!

This business of producing huge amounts of power by clipping, or boosting bass or treble is the blind leading the blind.

The FACT is that a class AB amplifier (which is 90% of the amplifiers on the market), can only produce approximately double power in full clipping compared to its maximum rated power without clipping.*

Boosting bass or treble an extreme amount could only change the overall power output by 3% or less. Anyone that says different is repeating foolishness. The precise amount is variable, depending on the precise design parameters of the tone control, but around 3 % is correct for most.

Any electronics student can do the calculation for you, or you can look it up in textbook.

That kind of increase is far less than what some clueless people claim.

I have designed and tested many amplifiers, and taught electronics for over 30 years, and I am quite familiar with the actual calculations to precisely determine power output, and most of the discussion in this thread has been based on untrue assumptions and allegations.

Most amplifier failure due to overheating is not because the amplifier is being operated in clipping, or any other reason, but because the design engineers simply did not provide adequate heat-sink area for the amplifier to operate at higher power levels, within their rated power, for long periods of time.


* EXAMPLE- An amplifier with +- 40 volt power supplies can put out a maximum of 80 volts peak-to-peak without clipping, or 28 volts RMS.

When applied to an 8 ohm load, that is a power output of 98 watts RMS.

In full clipping it will put out an 80 volt P-P square wave, which will deliver 200 watts.
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post #40 of 44 Old 02-21-2014, 07:40 PM
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Underpowering WILL NOT blow up loudspeakers. In fact they LOVE it. HOWEVER-If you try to push a small amp to the point it becomes distorted and non linear-then you are no longer supplying a clean signal to the loudspeakers and all sorts of nasty things will happen.
.
+1. Clipping won't bother woofers, as they won't see any more power from a clipped signal than a clean one. Midranges can be harmed, though rarely, because they will see more power with a clipped signal. Tweeters are a different story, however. A tweeter normally receives 5 to 10% of the power that the woofer does, so with a 100 watt signal the tweeter might receive 10 watts. If you heavily clip the signal the increased harmonic content can take the power that the tweeter receives easily to four times normal or more, and that can mean magic smoke. This has been well known for decades, even before JBL published this:
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/lowpower.pdf
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post #41 of 44 Old 02-21-2014, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lwien View Post

Umm...........I do believe that one can hear a speakers distress, either from the woofer, tweeter or mids and turn down the power in time to save them. I don't believe that speakers blow in milliseconds. At least, I don't think they do.

Apparently Overture 1812 is the biggest source of blown speakers according receiver manufacturers...the reason being the peaks from the cannons. Therefore, I think in fact most speakers do blow from very short peaks of power bursts.
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post #42 of 44 Old 02-23-2014, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by kaiforce View Post

I think your being a little paranoid. Decent speakers can go past uncomfortably loud before they get damaged. If you were only 34 on the dial, then you likely still had many decibels of headroom, and the super high wattage wasn't going to your speakers yet, as the watts are exponentially added when you hit the highest of high volumes. You would be surprised how loud 10 watts is on speakers with decent sensitivity. Seriously. It hurts. biggrin.gif

If the tweeter was damaged, you'd hear it right away. Probably would need to focus a bit more to hear a damaged woofer, but I think it would also be pretty obvious if you brought your head up to it while it played.


Thanks, that's reassuring. I was just about to give up on the paranoia and then I go and do almost the same thing again when I grabbed the remote to turn it down and had it the wrong way around so put it up (it goes up really quickly!).

 

I suppose the other question is whether it damaged the amp (Marantz MCR603. It has a "protection circuit" which I presume is designed to stop this sort of thing? Would this also stop this clipping that's been discussed in this thread? I've checked the manual and apparently the volume will go up to 60, so at 34 it was a little over half way.

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post #43 of 44 Old 02-23-2014, 08:24 AM
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Most AVR's can display the Master Volume (MV) in 2 ways; relative and absolute.
Relative shows as -x dB, with 0dB as "Reference" volume.
Absolute is typically from 1 thru a sorta high number, maybe in the 60s.

When display relative, if you go past 0db there is more chance for you to go into clipping of your speakers.

As discussed here, that is when you may damage them.

As a matter of fact, on my Denon 4520CI there is ability to limit volume, I set mine to 0db.

In absolute mode harder to grasp when you are at Reference volume.

So, my simple suggestion is run the MV in relative mode, don't go above reference volume, and if your AVR has volume limit set that at reference.


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post #44 of 44 Old 02-23-2014, 12:27 PM
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Thanks. I've had a good look at the manual, and can't find any way of changing to reference volume or limiting volume output, so I'll just have to be careful. I've got d DB meter on my phone (not sure how accurate this will be though?), and at my normal "loud" listening volume of 20, its around 66/67 db. I had it at 34, so I imagine at the incident in question it was around 85-90db.

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