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post #1201 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Retail

Wow...you can get that much of a discount on those suckers? That's pretty amazing. I wish I had the "hookup" like you guys do; I could use a heavily discounted amp and preamp.

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post #1202 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Thanks for the write-up, Mark - well done!

I am glad you've got it narrowed down to two speakers. Who would have thought the two speakers you narrowed it down two would be so different in price range?

Well, happy decision making.

Nuance

As Rydenfan mentioned there isn't that huge of a difference in price. There is a difference but not quite what you think. I also like them both almost equally, it's going to be a tough decision. The HT-3's are that good. I'll make it in a day or so.

Mark
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post #1203 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

Nuance

As Rydenfan mentioned there isn't that huge of a difference in price. There is a difference but not quite what you think. I also like them both almost equally, it's going to be a tough decision. The HT-3's are that good. I'll make it in a day or so.

Mark

It certainly seems like there is no bad decision, which is great! For me the Salk wait time compared to the KEFs would seal the deal for me.
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post #1204 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

It certainly seems like there is no bad decision, which is great! For me the Salk wait time compared to the KEFs would seal the deal for me.

No disagreement
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post #1205 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

Nuance

As Rydenfan mentioned there isn't that huge of a difference in price. There is a difference but not quite what you think. I also like them both almost equally, it's going to be a tough decision. The HT-3's are that good. I'll make it in a day or so.

Mark

I love Salk's stuff, but the wait might be the decision factor if I was in your place. I don't know what the average wait time is on a pair of HT3's, but I know it's increased due to the driver supply issue.

Perhaps the rest of the matching multichannel system can help you decide?

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post #1206 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I love Salk's stuff, but the wait might be the decision factor if I was in your place. I don't know what the average wait time is on a pair of HT3's, but I know it's increased due to the driver supply issue.

Perhaps the rest of the matching multichannel system can help you decide?

I totally agree Nuance. KEF offers a multitude of in-ceiling speakers which Salk does not currently have so that is a bonus for Mark as well. He would actually have a more complete 5 channel system with KEF because with the Salks he would have to go with another company for the rears. I too can only have in-ceilings for the rears, so this is important to me as well.
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post #1207 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 01:56 PM
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Hey Mark,
if you go with the Kefs, any idea what finish you would order?
Over here in the UK there is a fair bit of price difference between some, but at this price you want ones that look glorious eh

Cheers
DT
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post #1208 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Hey Mark,
if you go with the Kefs, any idea what finish you would order?
Over here in the UK there is a fair bit of difference between some, but at this price you want ones that look glorious eh

Cheers
DT

DT
There is a huge difference in price for gloss vice satin ($2,000). I honestly preferred the satin. I loved the overall finish, but the high gloss on the uni Q driver was a bit much for me. I'm leaning toward the walnut, but the satin black also intrigues me. Either finish will work well with my setup.

So in answer to your question, satin walnut or satin black.
Mark
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post #1209 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I love Salk's stuff, but the wait might be the decision factor if I was in your place. I don't know what the average wait time is on a pair of HT3's, but I know it's increased due to the driver supply issue.

Perhaps the rest of the matching multichannel system can help you decide?

I'm guessing, at least 6 months (give or take a month or so) on the wait for the HT-3.

The matching multichannel is a huge factor. But, the HT-3 is incredible.... I'm just holding off for a few days and thinking this through before I dive in whole hog.

I may even wait on the center because I can't decide if I want the same finish on all fronts. I'm leaning toward satin walnut for the l/r and black for the center. The black center would allow it to disappear, if you will, under the plasma. The credenza is espresso (dark brown) in color and black or walnut will work, but I don't know which would work best.

This is the same decision I'm going through on veneer no matter which speaker I chose.

My wife has reached the "whatever" point, so no help there.

I'll figure it out.
Mark
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post #1210 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

I totally agree Nuance. KEF offers a multitude of in-ceiling speakers which Salk does not currently have so that is a bonus for Mark as well. He would actually have a more complete 5 channel system with KEF because with the Salks he would have to go with another company for the rears. I too can only have in-ceilings for the rears, so this is important to me as well.

Yes, that's right. Well, I fully expect to see pics of his new Kef's when he gets them, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

I'm guessing, at least 6 months (give or take a month or so) on the wait for the HT-3.

The matching multichannel is a huge factor. But, the HT-3 is incredible.... I'm just holding off for a few days and thinking this through before I dive in whole hog.

I may even wait on the center because I can't decide if I want the same finish on all fronts. I'm leaning toward satin walnut for the l/r and black for the center. The black center would allow it to disappear, if you will, under the plasma. The credenza is espresso (dark brown) in color and black or walnut will work, but I don't know which would work best.

This is the same decision I'm going through on veneer no matter which speaker I chose.

My wife has reached the "whatever" point, so no help there.

I'll figure it out.
Mark

6 months? Yeah...that totally bites.

I like your idea of a black center, as that's what I've been pondering doing. Everything up front is black except the ST's, so maybe an all black glossy center would be cool, in my room I mean.

So your wife has already reached the "whatever point," eh? Mine didn't reach it until the wait time exceeded what we had originally thought. By the time the speakers came she was so happy to have them that she wasn't as mad about them not being "as red as they were in the pictures" as I thought she'd be. God bless her soul - she's a keeper!

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post #1211 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 05:10 PM
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[quote=Nuance;14590791]Yes, that's right. Well, I fully expect to see pics of his new Kef's when he gets them, then.
6 months? Yeah...that totally bites.
QUOTE]


Who knows--one of those hurricanes could hit Detroit and wipe out production, but right now the hold-up is drivers, not cabinets, and when I talked to Jim yesterday he was surrounded by them. Once the HT3 woofs start coming in, I really doubt that we're talking about anything like 6 months. I'll fly up there and help out if that happens.
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post #1212 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post



Who knows--one of those hurricanes could hit Detroit and wipe out production, but right now the hold-up is drivers, not cabinets, and when I talked to Jim yesterday he was surrounded by them. Once the HT3 woofs start coming in, I really doubt that we're talking about anything like 6 months. I'll fly up there and help out if that happens.

I hear ya. Heck, count me in too. Anything to get over there and tour the facilities.

I just wanted to be clear that I know this isn't a production issue to be blamed on Jim. He got stuck in a bind and it wasn't his fault. I feel really bad for him and think he's handled the situation brilliantly.

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post #1213 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

...I can't decide if I want the same finish on all fronts. I'm leaning toward satin walnut for the l/r and black for the center. The black center would allow it to disappear, if you will, under the plasma. The credenza is espresso (dark brown) in color and black or walnut will work, but I don't know which would work best.

This is the same decision I'm going through on veneer no matter which speaker I chose.

My wife has reached the "whatever" point, so no help there.

I'll figure it out.
Mark

I can't help but think that you've gotten sidetracked.

For me it's all about whether or not I'm sometimes tapping my feet with whatever disc is playing.

Since your wife is "whatever" why are you off on this veneer thing?

Cheers
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post #1214 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habnab View Post

I can't help but think that you've gotten sidetracked.

For me it's all about whether or not I'm sometimes tapping my feet with whatever disc is playing.

Since your wife is "whatever" why are you off on this veneer thing?

Cheers

What are you talking about? He has been listening to speakers for many months and is narrowed down to two choices. He is now discussing what finish he would probably go with. In case you are unaware next to picking the best speaker for you, what finish you chose for them is the most important decision.
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post #1215 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

What are you talking about? He has been listening to speakers for many months and is narrowed down to two choices. He is now discussing what finish he would probably go with. In case you are unaware next to picking the best speaker for you, what finish you chose for them is the most important decision.

Thanks, I didn't want to answer that one.
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post #1216 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habnab View Post

I can't help but think that you've gotten sidetracked.

For me it's all about whether or not I'm sometimes tapping my feet with whatever disc is playing.

Since your wife is "whatever" why are you off on this veneer thing?

Cheers

No offense intended, but this is the 33d pair of speakers I've listened to since March (I've been all over from least expensive to pretty high end). I've narrowed it down to two and now need to find a finish by Monday or my decision is made for me. That's the only reason I'm debating veneers.
Again no offense intended
Mark
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post #1217 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Mark- Nice review on the KEFs.

They look pretty cool to me...

on a side note: If you wind up flying my HT-3s (DTW-LAX), when they are complete, please make sure they get here safely.

I don't know if this will have any influence on you, or anyone else that is considering placing an order for a pair of HT3s, but I just got this today, in an email from Jim: "So it looks like the woofers will be abailable by the end of the month. I can't tell you how anxious I am to have that issue behind us. With all the changes we have made lately, we should be able to crank out HT3's in a much shorter time than ever before."
I really like the fact that I was able to fully customize the veneer, and finish with Salk. Even though the wait time was extra long for me, I don't regret not settling for instant gratification.

I am curious to hear the KEFs, and I am going to miss your reviews. Best of luck with your decision, my friend. I am sure you will be a very happy man in the end, because you certainly put forth the effort, and time to let your ears decide.

Cheers
-Funk

->>>≈<<<-
Speakerquest
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post #1218 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 10:50 PM
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Funk
If we ship them, I'll get them there if I'm on the trip! Promise.

There is always a part of the search that is better than the finish. Yet, I'm ready to finish this search. The cost of cab rides and walking numerous miles in big city's is killing me. Ha! With the amount of gas I've used I could own several pairs of HT-3s.

I just wish the HT-3's weren't so good. The surround issue is the biggest thing holding me back. If Jim made an in-ceiling/in-wall....Oh well, we'll see. I've got till Monday to finalize the decision. My wife is kind of delaying things, she prefers the coffin (Salk) to the one eyed monster off Monsters Inc. (KEF). Her words and description of both. How'm I doing.

If you get the chance go hear the KEFs, extremely musical speaker.
Mark
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post #1219 of 2204 Old 09-04-2008, 11:38 PM
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Just thought I'd give an updated rundown with minor impressions on everything I've listened to (I think I missed a couple):

Avalon Acoustics Ascendant (Incredibly musical speaker)

B&W 683, CM-7, 705, 703, 803S, 800D (liked the 803S, didn't get to hear the 803D or 802D)

Dali Helicon 400MK1 (great speaker, lacked the lower end umph - should have heard a few other Dali's)

Dynaudio Contour S3.4, Sapphire (both are exceptional, should have heard the C2 and Contour 5.4)

KEF Reference 205/2 (outstanding, I'd love to hear the 207/2 and the 201/2 monitor - I might own the monitors one day)

Klipsch RF-63, 83 (I own modified Forte II's) (No)

Magnepan MG 1.6 (doesn't meet any level of WAF factor)

Martin Logan Montage, Source, Purity (nice within a narrow listening area)

Monitor Audio RS-6, 8, PL-300 (all are great speakers, PL somewhat raspy in the highs)

Paradigm Studio 60, 100 (No) (should have heard the Signatures)

Polk LSi25 (No)

PSB Synchrony One (does well in all areas, but nothing stands out)

Revel Studio2, Salon2 (outstanding, Salon 2 is the best heard)

Salk HT-3 (outstanding)

T+A Criterion TL TS 200 (no, fatiguing - but great electronics)

Vienna Acoustics Bach, Mozart (No)

Best Speakers Heard: (IMO)

Avalon Ascendant, Dynaudio Sapphire, KEF Reference 205/2, Monitor Audio PL-300, Revel Studio2/Salon2, Salk HT-3

The final two:

KEF Reference 205/2 OR Salk HT-3

If I had a separate 2-channel system I'd buy the Avalon tomorrow. The most musical speaker I heard, but no matching center channel.

Thanks to all for the insight and recommendations
Mark
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post #1220 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Even though the wait time was extra long for me, I don't regret not settling for instant gratification.

+1

golf, happy decision making bud. You've certainly done your homework and deserve the best. Whichever you chose, you'll be super thrilled, I'm sure.

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post #1221 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

Funk
If we ship them, I'll get them there if I'm on the trip! Promise.

There is always a part of the search that is better than the finish. Yet, I'm ready to finish this search. The cost of cab rides and walking numerous miles in big city's is killing me. Ha! With the amount of gas I've used I could own several pairs of HT-3s.

I just wish the HT-3's weren't so good. The surround issue is the biggest thing holding me back. If Jim made an in-ceiling/in-wall....Oh well, we'll see. I've got till Monday to finalize the decision. My wife is kind of delaying things, she prefers the coffin (Salk) to the one eyed monster off Monsters Inc. (KEF). Her words and description of both. How'm I doing.

If you get the chance go hear the KEFs, extremely musical speaker.
Mark


Funk can take a ride to Matt's place anytime and hear the KEFs...

It is all down to trade-offs now for Mark. KEF is available right now (at a great deal) has matching center and in-ceilings. To me those factors would tip the scale, but I have not heard the HT-3's. The one advantage they seem to have is custom veneering but seeing how nice the offered finishes are on the KEFs the Salk wait time would not be worth it to me. But everyone is different and that is what makes this hobby so enjoyable.
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post #1222 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfugh View Post

..........

I just wish the HT-3's weren't so good. The surround issue is the biggest thing holding me back. If Jim made an in-ceiling/in-wall....Oh well, we'll see. I've got till Monday to finalize the decision. My wife is kind of delaying things, she prefers the coffin (Salk) to the one eyed monster off Monsters Inc. (KEF). Her words and description of both. How'm I doing.

If you get the chance go hear the KEFs, extremely musical speaker.
Mark

My thought on surrounds is that they don't need to match the fronts. If you have full range floor standing fronts, they won't match any way, even with the same drivers, because of placement and lack of ideally sized solid box. Surrounds are most often fill sound and at times special effects that are mostly independent of the front, so for those reasons imperfect matches don't stand out anything ike they do between badly matched front speakers and center channel. Lastly, if you have Audyssey on your pre, I think that makes a big difference balancing the speakers also. Anyway, that's from my limited experience. Currently I have high end Polk in-walls and in-ceilings with my Salk front and center.
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post #1223 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 08:34 AM
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My guess is that you do not listen to any multi-channel music? If you did I think you would find rears very important. Also Audyssey cannot correct for non-timbre matching.
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post #1224 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 09:28 AM
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One other thing that would be a factor to me is efficency. The Salks are 85 db while the KEFs are 90 db. That means the HT-3 will have to be pushed considerably harder to achieve the same SPL as the KEFs, 5 db's is a pretty big swing. Again everyone is different though and there is no bad choice here.
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post #1225 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 09:50 AM
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To play Devil's Advocate - golf will be using in-ceiling or in-wall speakers for the rears right? If that's the case, timbre matching won't make a huge difference because of the issues that will already arise from not using mountable speakers. In-walls/in-ceiling won't give you the directionality of on-walls. You won't get the full encompassing sound that you could with bi-polar, di-polar or direct radiating on wall speakers. You may have to deal with more reflections as well.

In my opinion the whole surround debate is moot due to this. Using in-ceiling/in-wall designs will already leave you down and out to begin with due to the compromises already set in place, at least in comparison with mountable or stand designs.

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post #1226 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

My guess is that you do not listen to any multi-channel music? If you did I think you would find rears very important. Also Audyssey cannot correct for non-timbre matching.

While not matching timbre, Audyssey does a great job of level matching and setting the correct timing for great surround experience.

The experience I described of listening to blended rear sounds and sounds that are special effects and often independent of the front soundstage does more reflect movie listening than music listening. For music, a lot of surround music sounds great. But it depends on how it's recorded and how it uses the rears. When it's not great, it seems to have more to do with speaker placement and construction compromises than timbre matching. Matching drivers would be a safer choice but I don't think having matching drivers would make my good rear soundstage become great. But I can imagine that if the timbre match was horrendously off that it could be a pronounced issue.
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post #1227 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 11:31 AM
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disclaimer - even with what I said above, I still recommend timbre matching the entire system, in-walls or not.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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post #1228 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayareakirk View Post

My thought on surrounds is that they don't need to match the fronts.

I will have to disagree with this "blanket" statement. An ideal situation would be to have to a 5 or 7 channel surround system with ALL matching speakers (see Quecumber's system with 7 Salon2). Obviously the space/cost consideration will keep most of us from doing this, but it is still important to closely match all the speakers as much as possible. Most manufacturers retain similar "house sound" or voicing across the whole range of speakers. This means similar driver design and materials, crossover slopes, etc.

Some companies go through great lengths nowadays to make better sounding inwalls and inceilings. In my experience matching surrounds as close as possible to the fronts is the only way to yield the most coherent surround experience. Remember its NOT surround sound without the surrounds.
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post #1229 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 03:11 PM
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Since people have been asking, I thought I'd provide an update on the HT3 woofer situation.

As many of you know, TC Sounds built all of the woofers previously used on our HT3's. Unfortunately, they filed bankruptcy a matter of two weeks after we had paid for our last manufacturing run. We never received the woofers.

Fortunately, we were able to locate another manufacturer who had experience with this specific driver and knew EXACTLY how to build them. In our first conversation on the topic, he cited component specs and parameters off the top of his head. But he also recommended two improvements to enhance driver performance. The only problem was, although he had the frames, magnets, etc., he did not have the required aluminum cones or the surrounds for this 10" driver.

So we embarked on a crash effort to generate the tooling required to manufacture the cones and surrounds. It took a couple of iterations before the cone tooling measured correctly, but that has been resolved and we have been promised production cones within the next two weeks. We are also a matter of days away from signing off on the surround tooling and there is a supplier standing by to produce surrounds starting in a week or so.

So barring any last-minute hitches (there shouldn't be any) we should have all the drivers we need by the end of the month. Which means there would be no delays for HT3 orders placed today. The drivers would be here before any new cabinets would be ready.

This whole situation has been a source of extreme aggravation and stress. In the end, however, it will be a fortunate turn of events. We will have a steady supply of superior woofers and a reliable supplier we can count on.

- Jim

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post #1230 of 2204 Old 09-05-2008, 03:30 PM
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Jim,

Good to hear that the HT3 woofers are on track. Makes it one step closer to being able to listen to my satin black HT3's/HTC. (the longest wait now will next be getting them through Canadian Customs) Looking forward to them!

Darren A.
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