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post #1531 of 2204 Old 10-16-2008, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Nor have I, but I have perceived a decent soundstage with a midrange pair. Not holographic, by any means... just thinking out loud, as in what happens when you remove the room, and speaker cabinet (though headphones could be argued to have tiny cabinets)

Here's something to think about. Earlier I quoted YG Acoustics marketing material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YG Acoustics Brochure View Post

The measured performance of the YG Acoustics Kipod is exceptional, and correlates to its perceived sonic quality. In addition to a flat frequency response both on-and off-axis, the phase difference between the tweeter and the mid-woofer is near zero at all frequencies, meaning that they radiate as one integral unit. This unique feature is a YG Acoustics specialty, and allows for an amazing soundstage, normally associated only with single-driver loudspeakers.

You'll notice that they specifically mention that "an amazing soundstage is normally associated with single-driver loudspeakers."

Headphones are by nature single-driver devices. Hmmm....

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but with a single driver of course there is no cross-over and therefor no opportunity for phase-shift. So if you design a multi-driver speaker with little to no phase shift, you would emulate the sound of a single driver and its "amazing soundstage", no?
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post #1532 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 01:46 AM
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B&W I believe do their own thing when it comes to 1st order crossover, and do not rely on it as a complete solution.

No idea if what they say is completely accurate (though they do mention 2nd-order characteristic) but here is their view on it:
Quote:


The simplest filter configuration is 1st-order, with a single series inductor for the low-pass and a single series capacitor for the high-pass.
The fact of the matter is, however, that it is nigh impossible to have a truly 1st-order crossover in a passive loudspeaker system.
One cannot simply look at the component count.
Drive units themselves are inherently bandpass devices.
They have a 2nd-order high-pass characteristic and usually a very high-order low-pass characteristic.
These shapes must be added to the transfer function of the electrical network and, even though the drive units’ natural cut-off frequencies may be well removed from the crossover frequency, the phase response associated with the drive unit magnitude response usually intrudes through the frequency
range of the crossover to disrupt the way the outputs of the two units add together.

Also it seems B&W say that if you could have a true 1st order filter then problems (time delay/phase) occur when moving away from the reference axis and using more than one driver (their reference paper has chart measurements but no idea if this is modeled or actual but I guess modeled).
Tim, another interesting point with headphones I would had thought is that their design means your always within the reference axis boundary.

Here is what they specifically say:
Quote:


In any case, a true 1st-order filter (assuming one had drive units with perfectly flat responses) is not particularly desirable.
The two parts add together in quadrature (constant 90º phase difference) and, while this is of no consequence in the one-dimensional world of current flowing in a wire, when you have two drive units separated in space, things are rather different.

So as Tim picked up, there seems to be a few potential advantages for headphones beyond just the complications of room acoustics, unless we are missing something and as amateurs I bet we are


Cheers
DT
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post #1533 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

OK, I getcha now. I was only referring to a 6dB electrical filter and I understand that the electro-acoustical roll-off will usually be steeper than this.

However, I'm under the impression that all of these companies use 1st order electrical filters to preserve the phase of the signal. Does the electro-acoustical sum affect the signal phase?

You also mention out-of-band break-up peaks in the mid-driver. I've seen this sort of thing in the measurements of the majority of metal midrange drivers, but most well designed poly and paper cones don't have this problem as far as I can tell. All of the speakers mentioned so far have poly or paper cones.

I'm not jumping to any conclusions, and I am far from being and authority on cross-overs, I'm just trying to see if there are any commonalities between the speakers that have been said to have a big soundstage. I can accept it if it has nothing to do with the use of 1st order electrical filters, but it is curious that the Dyns, the WB's, the Vandy's and the SF's all claim to use them.

And since only one has a stepped baffle (the Vandy), yet all of them produce a big sound, it seems that we can rule this out as a requirement for a big soundstage.

Most any driver will have a break-up mode of some kind. It's a matter of degree. if you just put a series inductor on most drivers, the breakup region will intrude into the frequency response and color the sound. It is true, however, that paper and poly will not "ring" to the same extent as metal drivers, which generally will require a trap circuit. In any event, you still seem to be confusing 1st order electrical and acoustic filters. There is absolutely nothing about a 1st order electrical filter that will produce constant phase, even if you stagger the drivers. That's a function of the actual acoustic slopes, which will reflect the varying impedance of the driver over the frequency range, and irregularities in its response. It's not true that Vandy, or Thiel, or others who seek true 1st order slopes use an electrical
1st order. The Thiel crossovers are a maze of components. I haven't looked at a Vandy crossover, but I'll bet it's not just a cap and a coil. And true first order acoustic crossovers can only be optimized for one listening position. If you move off axis, the phase coherence disappears.
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post #1534 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

In any event, you still seem to be confusing 1st order electrical and acoustic filters. There is absolutely nothing about a 1st order electrical filter that will produce constant phase, even if you stagger the drivers. That's a function of the actual acoustic slopes, which will reflect the varying impedance of the driver over the frequency range, and irregularities in its response. It's not true that Vandy, or Thiel, or others who seek true 1st order slopes use an electrical
1st order. The Thiel crossovers are a maze of components. I haven't looked at a Vandy crossover, but I'll bet it's not just a cap and a coil. And true first order acoustic crossovers can only be optimized for one listening position. If you move off axis, the phase coherence disappears.

Thanks for clarifying the info in the bolded statement above. That was where my main misunderstanding lied. Also, thanks for the reminder that a true 1st order slope can often require a complex x-over circuit. I was assuming that most of these speaker companies were promoting a less-is-more approach.

I just have to say that high order x-overs have always made more sense to me, for all the common reasons stated and I've also wondered why anyone would design a modern speaker with anything else. But I like to dabble in the fringe every once in a while, and when I put my analytical thinking cap to the side and listen to speakers that claim to use shallow slopes, many of them sound quite good. I've also found that the off-axis problems I expected to hear with these speakers, seem to be more of an issue on-paper than in practical use. Yes, the tone of the speaker was not consistent off-axis, but it was a subtle difference. Then again, I also remember listening to a pair of Sonus Faber's that took on a very unnatural hollow sounding quality if you stood above the speaker, which was most certainly due to a suck-out at the x-over point.
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post #1535 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Hmmmm. I'm still not sure what's motivating this discussion. Is the problem that someone said, or implied, that everything you need to know about off-axis response is a function of dispersion? That's certainly not true, at least not if the relative distance of the various drivers to the listener changes as you move off-axis. That will change relative arrival times and phase, which will cause cancellations whether the drivers are high or moderate dispersion designs. But if the relative distances don't change, which will be the case for vertically arrayed drivers as you move off axis horizontally, then off-axis response will be a function of dispersion. The vertical off-axis response, on the other hand, will also be a function of the change in relative driver distances and the crossover topology.

No one said anything like that. We were just trying to figure out what actually makes a large sound stage. I thought dispersion might have something to do with it, but I am no speaker designer so what do I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I may just be latching onto something here, or seeing only what I want to see, but SF is also a proponent for 1st order x-overs, which is the one common trait amongst the speakers I, you, and Nuance have said to have a broad soundstage.

That could very well be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Here's something to think about. Earlier I quoted YG Acoustics marketing material.



You'll notice that they specifically mention that "an amazing soundstage is normally associated with single-driver loudspeakers."

Headphones are by nature single-driver devices. Hmmm....

Forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but with a single driver of course there is no cross-over and therefor no opportunity for phase-shift. So if you design a multi-driver speaker with little to no phase shift, you would emulate the sound of a single driver and its "amazing soundstage", no?

Bravo! Now you on to something!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Most any driver will have a break-up mode of some kind. It's a matter of degree. if you just put a series inductor on most drivers, the breakup region will intrude into the frequency response and color the sound. It is true, however, that paper and poly will not "ring" to the same extent as metal drivers, which generally will require a trap circuit. In any event, you still seem to be confusing 1st order electrical and acoustic filters. There is absolutely nothing about a 1st order electrical filter that will produce constant phase, even if you stagger the drivers. That's a function of the actual acoustic slopes, which will reflect the varying impedance of the driver over the frequency range, and irregularities in its response. It's not true that Vandy, or Thiel, or others who seek true 1st order slopes use an electrical
1st order. The Thiel crossovers are a maze of components. I haven't looked at a Vandy crossover, but I'll bet it's not just a cap and a coil. And true first order acoustic crossovers can only be optimized for one listening position. If you move off axis, the phase coherence disappears.

What you describe sounds like a Vandersteen to me. I am pretty sure they do use a first order acoustic crossover, which would explain why the "sweet spot" is so small and they are so placement finicky. Interesting...

Here is some info on the Vandersteen crossover:

"The crossover in the Model Two is comprised of transient-perfect, first-order networks designed to preserve the phase integrity of the music. Phase and impedance compensation allow the drivers to operate in absolute phase with each other for more precise and stable imaging than in conventional multi-way speakers using out-of-phase drivers. The crossover's computer-grade components, including low impedance air-core inductors and high-quality film capacitors in the signal path, are hand soldered on a double-sided, plated-through PC board for enhanced consistency and reliability. Each completed crossover is tested to insure less than 0.1dB deviation from a reference circuit. Custom 6N wire with polypropylene dielectric is used for internal wiring to maximize signal transfer.

The crossover is engineered for bi-wiring with a stereo amplifier or passive vertical bi-amplification with two identical stereo amplifiers. Inputs are female banana jacks."


Here is the rest of the info on the Vandersteen design and implementation.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
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post #1536 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 12:07 PM
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Right--"transient perfect" is another description of constant phase--the speaker can pass a square wave, or transient impulse, without distorting its shape. I didn't mean to imply that Vandy wasn't using true 1st order slopes. They do. I've just never seen the crossover, so I don't know how elaborate it is.
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post #1537 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 04:20 PM
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From what I've read and heard Vandersteen's crossovers are pretty elaborate. Too bad Richard doesn't frequent these boards; he could give a definitive answer.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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post #1538 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

From what I've read and heard Vandersteen's crossovers are pretty elaborate. Too bad Richard doesn't frequent these boards; he could give a definitive answer.

Richard runs a faq at his website and he always answers or returns your calls. He's one of the best.
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post #1539 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 09:50 PM
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I can spend up from $3000 to $6500 (prefer the lower end of course)
So far in my research I found:
Dali Helicon 800 $6500 (pair)
Klipsch Reference Series RF-83 $2498 each
Anthony Gallo Acoustics Nucleus Reference 3.1 $2,995 (pair)
Legacy Audio Classic HD $3990 to $4400 (pair)
Earthquake Platine Noiree 7.1 $2697 (pair)
Martin Logan Vintage $4995 (pair)

I do not know much about speakers - all I know is I want a really nice sound. I want a powerful speaker system. I have 18ft ceilings. Large home. I walk around alot so the sound needs to be spread out. I like base - I assume I need a subwoofer. My receiver is the Elite Pioneer SC-07. I will play music (mostly jazz, christian, R&B) and use it for my theatre room that has a TV Pioneer Elite 141. I am deferring to you experts out there. Can someone please help me? Do you know which of these speakers are the better quality ones for my situation. Are the speakers listed above good speakers? are there any gotchas? Any speakers you recommend? Do you know anything about the customer service or reputation of the manufacturer? Best places to buy speakers? I've looked on the internet and I keep coming up with old information (back in 2006, etc). Do recommend any additional accessories for my system - i.e. subwoofers.
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post #1540 of 2204 Old 10-17-2008, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Gotcha back over in Nuances thread...

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post #1541 of 2204 Old 10-18-2008, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

gotcha back over in nuances thread...

+1

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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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post #1542 of 2204 Old 10-18-2008, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhaaf View Post

Richard runs a faq at his website and he always answers or returns your calls. He's one of the best.

Good point; forgot about that. I'll check it out. Thanks!

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Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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post #1543 of 2204 Old 10-18-2008, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Dennis- has Jim sent you the new woofers, and baffle to play with yet?

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post #1544 of 2204 Old 10-18-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Dennis- has Jim sent you the new woofers, and baffle to play with yet?

Hi I have the baffles sitting upstairs. Still waiting on the woofer. I was told the woofers were in production as of last week, so I'm hoping I'll get one next week.
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post #1545 of 2204 Old 10-18-2008, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Cool ! Thanks Dennis.

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post #1546 of 2204 Old 10-19-2008, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Here's something that I think applies to the most of us in this thread and could be an interesting topic of discussion while Funk and I wait for new speaks.

I'm curious how loud you like to listen when you're really pushing the limits.

I know Nuance likes his metal (as do I) and Funk likes to get Funky with his electronica (as do I) and Rydenfan and I were just talking about listening loud earlier today, so he's down with pushing the volume up.

So what is "loud" to you?

Do me a favor and pull out your SPL meter the next time you "rock out" and measure the avg and peak SPLs you're hitting.

I did this a while ago and my limits were:

Music: 94 - 98dB in stereo without a sub and about 3dB higher with sub.

Movies: 95 - 105dB always with a sub, of course.

I give ranges because my limits depended on the sound mix and how bright the recording is to begin with, so try a few different discs.

To keep things simple, lets stick with just stereo music playback.

When I was auditioning the HT3, Marty pulled his SPL meter out. It was bouncing between 93 and 95, right around where I normally listen. Possibly a bit more volume than normal.

-Michael
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post #1547 of 2204 Old 10-19-2008, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grenamc View Post

When I was auditioning the HT3, Marty pulled his SPL meter out. It was bouncing between 93 and 95, right around where I normally listen. Possibly a bit more volume than normal.

-Michael

Good to know. So at this point, most of us are staying under 95 dB, which appears to require a lot less power than one would think. And it has the side benefit of being good on the old ear drums. I still think that a high-current amp is called for since many speakers draw more current in the bass somewhere, but a solid 100 watts should do it if you are OK with not exceeded 100 dB on a regular basis.
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post #1548 of 2204 Old 10-21-2008, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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A note for anyone out there auditioning speakers or listening to them... The last few days I have had some allergy related sinus problems, all stuffy like but not too bad. Knowing that will put my "weird audio" experience into perspective. I have my old stereo system set up at work (early 1980's Technics receiver, and speakers) which usually has a pretty good sound to it, at least one that I am very familiar with (I've been hearing it, in one form or another, for nearly 30 years). When I switched it on, I immediately noticed a lack of bass and started checking to see if someone had fiddled with the knobs or something. Nope. I started yawning (early in the morning ya know) and the next song came up on my iPod (on random) which kicked me right in the face with a blast of deep bass! (I was standing directly in front of the woofer which is on a shelf, putting it at face level, so I'm not lyin') So, naturally I thought it was just the previous song, and went about my day... When I got home, I flipped on my home system and was greeted with that same tinny no bottom end sound I had heard at work! What the heck is going on here? I never noticed this before. Well long story short, I came to the conclusion that all the stuffiness in my sinus cavity was somehow filtering out most of the bass frequencies, along with a fair amount of the midrange. Makes sense that after I yawned I could hear fine. Then throughout the day, the pressure built up again and by the time I got home... No bass, again.

So, what I am getting at is that I was really surprised at how much of an effect my sinuses have on my auditory perception. If you are auditioning speakers or doing any critical listening, make sure you have a clear head (in more ways than one). Stuffy vs. clear = night and day.

I have always been very lucky about not getting sick too often (until I developed these allergies about a two or three years ago). So the concept of things sounding different with a stuffy nose is new to me. Just something to keep in mind.

Cheers,
Funk

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post #1549 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post


So, what I am getting at is that I was really surprised at how much of an effect my sinuses have on my auditory perception. If you are auditioning speakers or doing any critical listening, make sure you have a clear head (in more ways than one). Stuffy vs. clear = night and day.

Cheers,
Funk

+1 Terrific advice, and oh so true.

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post #1550 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

A note for anyone out there auditioning speakers or listening to them... The last few days I have had some allergy related sinus problems, all stuffy like but not too bad. Knowing that will put my "weird audio" experience into perspective. I have my old stereo system set up at work (early 1980's Technics receiver, and speakers) which usually has a pretty good sound to it, at least one that I am very familiar with (I've been hearing it, in one form or another, for nearly 30 years). When I switched it on, I immediately noticed a lack of bass and started checking to see if someone had fiddled with the knobs or something. Nope. I started yawning (early in the morning ya know) and the next song came up on my iPod (on random) which kicked me right in the face with a blast of deep bass! (I was standing directly in front of the woofer which is on a shelf, putting it at face level, so I'm not lyin') So, naturally I thought it was just the previous song, and went about my day... When I got home, I flipped on my home system and was greeted with that same tinny no bottom end sound I had heard at work! What the heck is going on here? I never noticed this before. Well long story short, I came to the conclusion that all the stuffiness in my sinus cavity was somehow filtering out most of the bass frequencies, along with a fair amount of the midrange. Makes sense that after I yawned I could hear fine. Then throughout the day, the pressure built up again and by the time I got home... No bass, again.

So, what I am getting at is that I was really surprised at how much of an effect my sinuses have on my auditory perception. If you are auditioning speakers or doing any critical listening, make sure you have a clear head (in more ways than one). Stuffy vs. clear = night and day.

I have always been very lucky about not getting sick too often (until I developed these allergies about a two or three years ago). So the concept of things sounding different with a stuffy nose is new to me. Just something to keep in mind.

Cheers,
Funk

I had to start using a Neilmed Sinus rinse product recently in order to keep my sinuses clear. I found that doing it daily was too frequent for me, but a few times a week is great. I am more clear after doing this rinse than I have been in a couple of years. I also developed allergies a few years back, but up until that point I'd never been allergic to anything. It does make a HUGE difference though in what you hear from speakers.
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post #1551 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

I had to start using a Neilmed Sinus rinse product recently in order to keep my sinuses clear. I found that doing it daily was too frequent for me, but a few times a week is great. I am more clear after doing this rinse than I have been in a couple of years. I also developed allergies a few years back, but up until that point I'd never been allergic to anything. It does make a HUGE difference though in what you hear from speakers.

Thanks for the tip thirdeye11, I have a similar product that I use on occasion. Getting old sucks.

Hopefully only another week or two before my HT3's ship (no new news, strictly conjecture on my part)

Cheers

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post #1552 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Thanks for the tip thirdeye11, I have a similar product that I use on occasion. Getting old sucks.

Hopefully only another week or two before my HT3's ship (no new news, strictly conjecture on my part)

Cheers

Sorry to hear about the ear/nose problems, but your experience makes complete sense. Note to self: don't audition speaker with the sniffles.

Speaking of speaker shippments, I got confirmation that mine will be leaving the UK on 10/29 and should reach me about a week later. I have strategically taken that week off from work, or maybe I should have just called in with the "AV sickness". Aren't we covered under the American's With Disabilities Act for this sort of thing?
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post #1553 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Thanks for the tip thirdeye11, I have a similar product that I use on occasion. Getting old sucks.

Hopefully only another week or two before my HT3's ship (no new news, strictly conjecture on my part)

Cheers

I've lived with allergies all of my life, and agree it has a huge affect on your hearing.

Funk, here's to hoping you've got a review on your new Salks in a couple of weeks. I'm rooting for you bud.
Mark
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post #1554 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post


Hopefully only another week or two before my HT3's ship (no new news, strictly conjecture on my part)

Cheers

Man, I hope so!! Seems like it has been way too long for you.
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post #1555 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Speaking of speaker shippments, I got confirmation that mine will be leaving the UK on 10/29 and should reach me about a week later. I have strategically taken that week off from work, or maybe I should have just called in with the "AV sickness". Aren't we covered under the American's With Disabilities Act for this sort of thing?

Damn, you must get a ton of time off...Lucky guy.
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post #1556 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Hopefully only another week or two before my HT3's ship (no new news, strictly conjecture on my part)
Cheers

I hope so - would be incredible!

You have all been so hush hush about these one-off custom versions; can't wait to see what they look like!

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post #1557 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Damn, you must get a ton of time off...Lucky guy.

I've been with my place of work for 20 years, so I get 5 weeks a year.

You'd think that with that sort of length of employment that I'd be close to retirement, but alas I started at the age of 19.
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post #1558 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

You have all been so hush hush about these one-off custom versions; can't wait to see what they look like!

Really, nothing special, shape-wise. I simply requested a simplified rectangular cabinet. I think my wife said they look like coffins before I even read that anyone else had thought that. And to be fair, they really do not look like coffins when you are in the room with them. (There's no brass handles on the sides, no silk lining, no crying widow ) I just hope that Dennis is able to tweak the crossover enough (sorry about the extra work Dennis) to produce the same sound that I heard from the stock version. Jim fully warned me that I would be messing with the diffraction characteristics by changing the shape of the baffle, but since the whole world of speaker making seems to be about some form of compromise, that is the one compromise that I have to make (WAF/SAF) to get the speakers that I fell in love with.

-Cheers
Greg

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post #1559 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 12:28 PM
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wife said they look like coffins before I even read that anyone else had thought that.

-Cheers
Greg

I haven't shown a picture of them to a single female yet that hasn't had the same impression of them. Morbid females, and they're the life GIVERS...

-Michael
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post #1560 of 2204 Old 10-22-2008, 12:35 PM
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Are coaxial drivers or dual concentric drivers from KEF and Tannoy considered single driver?
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