How do you get that huge epic sound of a theater? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post

288Ks? The best reproduction I ever had of 100-10,000HZ was with A5s using 515B woofers and 288Ks on tarfilled 1005 multicell horns.

I think you have me confused with a richer man! Those K's seem to fetch a premium price on feepay.

These are 299 8a's which I got for a song since the diaphragms were blown. I plan on replacing them with 288 diaphragms from GPA when the time comes, but for the time being they're paper weights. There is simply no more room in my little HT for two more huge mantaray horns. Hopefully one day I'll have the basement finished and room for a full 7.1 or 5.1 horn setup in a treated room. And if I ever decide to open a large commercial cinema, I won't need new speakers lol.
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post #92 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

Hard insulation tends to have a poor absorption coefficient and it absorbs unevenly, usually only above 5 kHz or so. It can be effective when used with other softer, thicker materials that absorb into the midrange and upper bass. Based upon your description, I would disagree that this is as acoustically damped as a room can be. That may have been the problem.

No, this is about as acoustically damp as you could make a basement imo. It uses polyolefin foam which is also used specifically for sound absorption in many applications. I've been in some nice dealer sound rooms that weren't nearly as "damped".
Including the sound absorbing ceiling tiles and thick carpet with a heavy foam pad and furniture. Go find the Owens Corning Basement dealer in your area and find someone who has this and hear for yourself. Their brochure says it has 95% sound absorption - but they don't specify exactly what that means.
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post #93 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 10:25 AM
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Another question on this topic if you folks don't mind. How do you determine if a speaker is "dynamic"? From what I gather... (I could be totally off) for the tonal accuracy of theater systems you need a well treated room, and a set of speakers that have really good dynamics without experiencing compression. Can anyone clarify the terms "dynamics" and "compression" in relation to speakers?
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post #94 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 10:45 AM
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Its all running hdmi the only change I made was selecting the DD track in the menu on the disk. If you have your player set to output lpcm there should be no further decoding or processing needed you should have the raw data that runs your speakers. Your processor can only be acting as an equilizer and boosting certain sounds that you prefer. It cannot be adding discrete details to the sounds.

When I first bought a hd player I was expecting the better picture but was blown away with the audio improvements. 300, bourne series, black hawk down, resident evil, just to name a few were so much more captivating with the lossless sound tracks.

Sure sound treatments, higher end equiptment, is all going to sound better given the same medium, but if the input source was not important we would still be using cassette tapes and vcr tapes.

I am just saying cubic dollars alone will not give you that epic sound, you need the same source material (lossless) that the theater has and the capability to decode/transfer it to your properly placed speakers in at least a 5.1 setup. To me these are the key ingredients, from there you can make improvements by getting higher quality receivers, speakers, sound treatments etc.

I have never heard a current $12000 system properly setup, but the op was comparing it to a theater, I have been in several of those that are very nice and new with stadium seating etc. They have provided great sounds and pictures. But I have never had the audio impact I get with a nice lossless track in my home. Its obviously not because I have better equiptment, its because my system is tuned for my location and the system only has to have the power to fill my 20x20x8 room compared to the volume needed to fill a cineplex. I also don't have a hundred people around me making noise so when the director wants me to hear quiet, thats what I hear.

Geesh I've made this too long, I feel I have that epic sound, and I don't think it takes all that much money to duplicate.
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post #95 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakar80124 View Post

No, this is about as acoustically damp as you could make a basement imo.

You do not want a room to be overdamped.

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It uses polyolefin foam which is also used specifically for sound absorption in many applications.

Foam is a relatively ineffective material for sound energy absorption.

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I've been in some nice dealer sound rooms that weren't nearly as "damped".

Not an issue.

Quote:


Including the sound absorbing ceiling tiles and thick carpet with a heavy foam pad and furniture. Go find the Owens Corning Basement dealer in your area and find someone who has this and hear for yourself. Their brochure says it has 95% sound absorption - but they don't specify exactly what that means.

So it may not mean much. Have you ever measured the acoustics in your room?

Kal Rubinson

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #96 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 12:37 PM
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Its a combination of the fabric on the insulation that seems to work quite well.
Regardless, this room was very dead sounding. Overdamped would probably be a good way to describe it.
If your interested I'm sure you could find out for yourself. Owens Corning actually has their own traveling trailer demo as well at many home improvement shows.
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post #97 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chandra.hp View Post

Another question on this topic if you folks don't mind. How do you determine if a speaker is "dynamic"? From what I gather... (I could be totally off) for the tonal accuracy of theater systems you need a well treated room, and a set of speakers that have really good dynamics without experiencing compression. Can anyone clarify the terms "dynamics" and "compression" in relation to speakers?

Basically, dynamics is another way of saying SPL contrast. A speaker that can play loud doesn't necessarily produce great dynamics. However a speaker that can't play very loud can never produce realistically scaled dynamics (but it may be dynamic at low level playback).

Consider a good recording of a trumpet solo though the average HT speaker. Now compare that the the real thing. The reproduction is compressed.
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post #98 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 12:41 PM
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My personal opinion (for what's it worth) is that any Home Theater will sound better than any movie theater I've been too (haven't been an IMAX yet though). I feel having a gazillion watts is unimportant as far as revalence goes, because IMAX and your local cinema has to fill a huge amount of space, where a typical 100 wpc reciver will more than adequetly fill a home theater room.

I feel deep bass is very important in this regrads though. I was in an underground HT that had 27 foot high ceilings, the room was about 40'w, 60' long and 27' high. They had a nice Klispch system in there, but the only sub to fill that enormous space was a Sunfire Mini pushing 1000 watts. Needless to say the bass was a tad underwhelming. Where my HT is a just a smaller great room that has an SVS NSD PB12/2 and two Def Tech BP7001sc's with their internal 1500 watt amps, and I have to tell you that the bass in my dinky HT sure beat the pants off the guy with the underground one. His costing a hundred thousand dollars for the construction of that room and acoustics and gear.

My modest budget for my main HT was probably around 15,000 for everything.
Pioneer Elite 620 HDTV
Onkyo 805 (running center)
H/K Citation 19 amp (Mains)
H/K 2200 amp (surrounds)
Adcom 60 wpc (rear back)
Def Tech BP7001sc (mains), DT Gems (surrounds) DT C/L/R 2002 (Center) Polk 4500 (rear back) and SVS NSD PB12/2

Granted the guy who had the huge theater with seating for 36 people (three rows of 12 seats) Sunfire Preamp and amplifier and Klispch speakers, had the impressive room, it just wasnt enough with that one tiny sub to fill that entire space, as compared to mine, which although cost way less, when you hear an explosion, you FEEL an explosion.

Heck my bedroom system can beat out most HT systems, without the annoying cell phones, chattering teenagers, screaming kids and crying babies.
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post #99 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakar80124 View Post

Its a combination of the fabric on the insulation that seems to work quite well.
Regardless, this room was very dead sounding. Overdamped would probably be a good way to describe it.
If your interested I'm sure you could find out for yourself. Owens Corning actually has their own traveling trailer demo as well at many home improvement shows.

Sure................in the absence of measurements.

Kal Rubinson

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #100 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

Concert halls are design to acoustically reinforce sound coming from an orchestra, but a recording of an orchestra already has the "hall sound" recorded in it. In other words speakers placed on stage at a concert hall playing a recording of an orchestra wouldn't sound so hot.

In a cinema you want to hear the sound of the hall the recording was made in, not the sound of the space you're sitting in.

That's not really what I was saying though. I think you took it literally and not metaphorically. My point was, that the "drivers" (instrument) and "amplifier" (musician) are constant, and the room is the variable. It would sound "epic" in one room while perhaps more dead in another.

-Chuck
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post #101 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by impala454 View Post

That's not really what I was saying though. I think you took it literally and not metaphorically. My point was, that the "drivers" (instrument) and "amplifier" (musician) are constant, and the room is the variable. It would sound "epic" in one room while perhaps more dead in another.

You're associating Epic with hall ambiance, or reverberation right? My point was that a good cinema doesn't have any of that. A cinema and a concert hall are two totally different acoustic environments. One is meant to create ambiance, the other is meant to resolve ambiance in the recoding without creating any of it's own.

If you're saying that a system has to be able to resolve the hall ambiance in a recording in order to sound epic, then I'd agree with that. Otherwise, I don't get what you're saying .
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post #102 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 04:28 PM
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To me the salient point of good movie sound is a lush and effortless reproduction of upper bass and midrange, not the bombastic thumping of subwoofers.
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post #103 of 164 Old 03-03-2008, 07:25 PM
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First, what won't give you the sound of a theater:
Narrow rooms (13~14' wide) and an 8' ceiling. Add to that, small wimpy speakers with a 100wpc receiver driving them.

What you do need to get the sound:
A wide room, at least 18.5', that way you can setup your main speakers well away from the side walls. The physics of speakers are they need room inside the box and outside the box. Having the mains at least 4~5 ft from the side walls lets the sound radiate all aound.
Also having that amount of space to the sides of the speakers will greatly cut down on early reflections.
The ceilings should be at least 9 1/2 ft, imho, vaulted ceilings are even better.
Have thick pad and carpet, thick drapes and dual honey-cone shades and hopefully not too many widows. Heavy padded chairs. All this should give at least a neutral room, neither too live or too dead.

For the speakers, best to have identical, large speakers all around. Don't rely on the sub(s) to do all the SPL work, use speakers that have very good mid-bass drivers.
Have multiple subs, in matched pairs, if not all identical. Place at least two subs at the mid-points of the side walls or front/back walls. This will even out the bass response thru out the entire room.

POWER, POWER, POWER, PLENTY OF POWER. No less than one watt for ever cu ft of room space. If using horns, then less power can be used.

In my 3130cuft room I've got over 4300 watts.
The sub amps are only set to half volume and the receiver's sub setting at a -10db, as the total power to 4 subs is 3000w.
The seven channels receive another 1300w and the master volume is at -20 ~ -17db for most HD channels.

This means that you don't have to have reference levels to have great sound. There is plenty of power for the entire speaker system to operate smoothly, w/o any strain, what-so-ever. And when those huge canons go off, or a volcano goes, the entire room shakes and quates.

Finally, keep all the seating at least 4 ft away from all the walls. My center seat is more than 7 ft to any speaker. This alouds for the spaciness to develop so surround sound can be at its best. Nothing worse than having a surround speaker right next to your head.
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post #104 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post

You know, I went to go see "Vantage Point" last night, I noticed how amazing and HUGE the sound was in the theater (not to be confused with loud). Which led me to wonder, I have heard some nice HT systems, but I have never heard one that really sounded like an actual movie theater does. How do you achieve that "grand epic" sound in your HT? It's a little hard to explain what I mean, but "epic" is the only word I can think of to describe it...

I don't know how big your wallet is but... http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products...=US&Region=USA

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post #105 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

I don't know how big your wallet is but... http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products...=US&Region=USA

Those speakers (JBL Everest) are the speakers I'd most like to have. But, I have to settle for a lesser synthesis speaker, system the Perfromance Series.
But still very good.
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post #106 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 08:20 AM
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So in summary the answer is:

1) Buy a mansion with a huge finished basement.
2) Treat room
3) Build sound system system using pro audio horns and subs driven by mega watts.
4) Use the the original uncompressed sound track.

Or in other words, build a commercial theater! Who would have guessed lol
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post #107 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post

To me the salient point of good movie sound is a lush and effortless reproduction of upper bass and midrange, not the bombastic thumping of subwoofers.

+1

But I do love a powerful accurate sub(s) as well. Thing is though there seems to be an inverse relationship between LFEs and plot.
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post #108 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post

To me the salient point of good movie sound is a lush and effortless reproduction of upper bass and midrange, not the bombastic thumping of subwoofers.

That is exactly why I mentioned using speakers that have very good mid-bass, and 8" drivers would be better than 5 or 6" drivers for that portion of the audio spectrum.
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post #109 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

That is exactly why I mentioned using speakers that have very good mid-bass, and 8" drivers would be better than 5 or 6" drivers for that portion of the audio spectrum.

That's more of a frequency response, sensitivity, excursion, and power handling issue than a speaker diameter issue.

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post #110 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post

To me the salient point of good movie sound is a lush and effortless reproduction of upper bass and midrange, not the bombastic thumping of subwoofers.



Yes, those aspects are very important, but do not understate the importance of a good sub (or two).

Lumenlab "Community driven video lab".
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post #111 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post

Yes, those aspects are very important, but do not understate the importance of a good sub (or two).

Agree! That's why I'm running a MBM-12 with each main and a 3.3 Turbo nearfield behind the seating area. The mid-bass is terrific and the bottom is awesome. And my space is over 6000 cubic feet with two large openings on the left to other parts of the house.

Bill
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post #112 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post

Yes, those aspects are very important, but do not understate the importance of a good sub (or two).

Yes, especially for the scene in South Pacific where Mitzi Gaynor outruns an explosion while singing "Wonderful Guy".
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post #113 of 164 Old 03-05-2008, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

That's more of a frequency response, sensitivity, excursion, and power handling issue than a speaker diameter issue.

Well, 7 eight inch drivers will more a lot more air than 7 six inch drivers. And the point Brennan, I think was making, is that its not just about the sound produced by a sub(s). I've heard many multichannel systems that had either wimpy mid-bass or basicly none at all. And to me it sounds like a big void that it, in fact, is.

In fact there have been a couple of times I forgot to turn on the sub amp and watched an entire movie w/o realizing it, all because of those 7 eight inch mid-bass drivers just completely filling the room with bass. And not all movies have real deep bass, even if the subs are on. But take out the mid-bass and there will be a huge hole.
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post #114 of 164 Old 03-14-2008, 02:14 PM
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Has anybody even seen the size of the speakers used in theaters? The main speakers have 15 inch drivers and the surrounds at my local theater are 8 inches. And it takes ALOT of power to get them going.

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post #115 of 164 Old 03-14-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan View Post

JBL makes a few high end home horn speakers and several theater speakers with horns. Were I in the market for speakers now I'd be seriously thinking about these pro JBL 3678s. Only about $1000 each, a good deal as the woofer alone sells for $320 each at Parts Express and the horn driver (sans horn) for $300. I've used the 2226 woofer and 2426 treble driver used in this system and they can sound superb in hi-fi use. This 3678 reminds me of the famous JBL 4430 studio monitor but with higher output; same treble driver and horn and crossover point as the 4430 but a higher output woofer.


http://www.performanceaudio.com/cgi/...oducts_id=1255




There are also a few makers of furniture cabinet horn speakers such as Bruce Edgar.

Wow, these look amazing... Anybody here using these? At that price point, I am UBER curious...
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post #116 of 164 Old 03-17-2008, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

Wow, these look amazing... Anybody here using these? At that price point, I am UBER curious...

These are more suited for the home. http://www.jbl.com/array_series/defa...=US&Region=USA

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post #117 of 164 Old 03-17-2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

These are more suited for the home. http://www.jbl.com/array_series/defa...=US&Region=USA

I'm pretty sure the Array line is WAY out of my price range...

1400 Array retails for $11,000.00 pr
1000 Array retails for $8,000.00 pr
800 Array retails for $6,000.00 pr
880 Array retails for $3,500.00 ea
1500 Array retails for $4,000.00 ea
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post #118 of 164 Old 03-17-2008, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

Wow, these look amazing... Anybody here using these? At that price point, I am UBER curious...

Also don't forget these speakers are designed to go BEHIND the screen.

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post #119 of 164 Old 03-17-2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbunnysoulja View Post

I'm pretty sure the Array line is WAY out of my price range...

1400 Array retails for $11,000.00 pr
1000 Array retails for $8,000.00 pr
800 Array retails for $6,000.00 pr
880 Array retails for $3,500.00 ea
1500 Array retails for $4,000.00 ea

Not really http://bestofaudio.com/index.php?man...2e26110e440fac

Panasonic TC-P50ST60 plasma HD television, Onkyo TX-SR805 and PIONEER ELITE VSX-47TX receivers, Klipsch RB-75(2 pair) and RB-61 bookshelf speakers, Klipsch RSW-10, RSW-12(2), Velodyne HGS-12, HGS-18 subwoofers, PS3 80G, PIONEER DV-525 dvd player, Klipsch RS-42 surrounds, Klipsch RC-52 center channel
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post #120 of 164 Old 03-17-2008, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

Not really http://bestofaudio.com/index.php?man...2e26110e440fac

Thanks for the link... Those are pretty good prices, although with a 5.0 setup of the 3678's it would be about $5k total. I'm still interested if anyone is using the 3678's in a home setup, as it seems rather inexpensive considering the cost of the driver's alone in them.
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