Official Wyred 4 Sound Amp Thread - Page 56 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1651 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 12:17 PM
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ATI or W4S

Current Cinepro 375w/ch x 6 may be dying, considering W4S MC 500x3 250x2, vs ATI (A/B amp) 300x5.
Speakers are 8ohm, 91.5 sensitivity tower speakers for front l/r and side surrounds. Using a Denon 4520 as a pre/pro, and some of the internal amps for the remainder of a 11.x array. Room is 19x14x8. Movies only, no music, genres are action/scifi/fantasy/horror.

I know the ATI is a magnitude higher in price, $4800, vs $3600 for the W4S. So basically, I'm asking if the genre of movie only watching I do, in my size room and speakers would benefit more from a well respected A/B 300w/ch amp or a D amp of higher amps, listening levels are near reference only. My limited knowledge suggests the higher powered amp would provide more ' headroom' for the high energy sounds in such movies vs a lowered power amp regardless of topology, if that is even relevant at these higher power ratings for both. Any opinions welcome.
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post #1652 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 12:52 PM
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Ati at3007 is a good monster!!!

Definitely better care...
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post #1653 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 12:57 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
Current Cinepro 375w/ch x 6 may be dying, considering W4S MC 500x3 250x2, vs ATI (A/B amp) 300x5.
Speakers are 8ohm, 91.5 sensitivity tower speakers for front l/r and side surrounds. Using a Denon 4520 as a pre/pro, and some of the internal amps for the remainder of a 11.x array. Room is 19x14x8. Movies only, no music, genres are action/scifi/fantasy/horror.

I know the ATI is a magnitude higher in price, $4800, vs $3600 for the W4S. So basically, I'm asking if the genre of movie only watching I do, in my size room and speakers would benefit more from a well respected A/B 300w/ch amp or a D amp of higher amps, listening levels are near reference only. My limited knowledge suggests the higher powered amp would provide more ' headroom' for the high energy sounds in such movies vs a lowered power amp regardless of topology, if that is even relevant at these higher power ratings for both. Any opinions welcome.
Same thing at $3500 http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7900.html

Your welcome

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post #1654 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post
Same thing at $3500 http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7900.html

Your welcome
Similar but different parts. ATI uses different output devices with higher safe operating area.


You can get ATI in the same price range at classicuaudioparts.


Also consider the Parasound Halo A51 which is fantastic. You need to phone dealers to get pricing


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post #1655 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Similar but different parts. ATI uses different output devices with higher safe operating area.


You can get ATI in the same price range at classicuaudioparts.


Also consider the Parasound Halo A51 which is fantastic. You need to phone dealers to get pricing


- Rich
ATI makes the 7900, they have the same exact specs.

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post #1656 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 01:30 PM
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With speakers at 91.5 sensitivity (if they really are) none of these amps are going to be used at full potential in a 2000 cubic foot room unless the OP wants to damage his hearing. OP, what are the speakers and what is the listing distance?

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post #1657 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 01:37 PM
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By the way a B stock ATI3007 at classic is $4500 on sale as their "deal of the day" the 5 channel B stock is $3600

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post #1658 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post
ATI makes the 7900, they have the same exact specs.

24 output devices per channel on the Outlaw and 12 on the ATI. ATI have a higher safe operating area.
ATI makes amps for Outlaw according to their requirements.


Similar but not the same. I owned an ATI3005 and it was a great amp.


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post #1659 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by whickywhickyjim View Post
I tried, but they wanted to charge me $125/hour just to look at it, even though it's still under warranty. Awful. Thanks Tony Holt from marketing.
That doesn't make any sense at all. If the amp is still under warranty then what was their reasoning for charging $125 an hour? Was the amp modded or damaged? I've dealt with Tony before and never had any issues.

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post #1660 of 1676 Old 03-18-2015, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
24 output devices per channel on the Outlaw and 12 on the ATI. ATI have a higher safe operating area.
ATI makes amps for Outlaw according to their requirements.


Similar but not the same. I owned an ATI3005 and it was a great amp.


- Rich
Thanks Rich, learn something new every day. The ATI made Outlaw is a great amp, has the same incredible specs and saves a grand over the B stock ATI version at classic, seems like a good deal to me.

THX defines reference as 85db with 20db peaks, at a theater 100 to 105db peaks on booms and crashes is the norm and is very loud. With sensitive speakers such as the OP claims to have in a 2000 cubic ft room 50w would get him there and a 140lb amp would never be used anywhere near its limits unless hearing damage is the goal.

Close your eyes and hear the truth!

Last edited by audio0947; 03-18-2015 at 02:42 PM.
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post #1661 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post
With speakers at 91.5 sensitivity (if they really are) none of these amps are going to be used at full potential in a 2000 cubic foot room unless the OP wants to damage his hearing. OP, what are the speakers and what is the listing distance?
The front L/R are Onix Rocket 1000, and the surround L/R are the Onix Rocket 850s. I sit 9 feet from the front L/R, and the surrounds are 7 feet from main listening position. My listening levels are at a comfortable level , I don't blast the volume as it becomes distracting and pulls me out of the movie. I understand your view that the amps won't be used at full potential in that they can drive higher volumes , but does the concept of the loud transients found in action movies and such derive any benefit from an amp that has higher output even if used at say 30-40% of its maximum?
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post #1662 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 02:22 PM
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No, it hasn't been modded or damaged. He just conceptually rejects the notion that one of their amps could be causing the hum I'm experiencing, despite that the hum disappears when I swap out the W4S amp.
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post #1663 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post
Thanks Rich, learn something new every day. The ATI made Outlaw is a great amp, has the same incredible specs and saves a grand over the B stock ATI version at classic, seems like a good deal to me.

THX defines reference as 85db with 20db peaks, at a theater 100 to 105db peaks on booms and crashes is the norm and is very loud. With sensitive speakers such as the OP claims to have in a 2000 cubic ft room 50w would get him there and a 140lb amp would never be used anywhere near its limits unless hearing damage is the goal.

Wow, if that is the case , I shouldn't notice any difference in using the internal amps of the Denon 4520 except perhaps when on rare occasions in which the majority of the 9 amps are being used simultaneously ! I will definitely have to do that since I never have used any of my AVR's int amps for the main 5 speakers ever since I migrated from a Lexicon DC2 prepro. I am more of a video than audio guy and would prefer to redirect my money towards a UHD projector once they get the full hdmi 2 at 18 gb than towards a separate amp that far exceeds what is used, like buying a Lamborghini to only drive in rush hour traffic I guess.
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post #1664 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
Wow, if that is the case , I shouldn't notice any difference in using the internal amps of the Denon 4520 except perhaps when on rare occasions in which the majority of the 9 amps are being used simultaneously ! I will definitely have to do that since I never have used any of my AVR's int amps for the main 5 speakers ever since I migrated from a Lexicon DC2 prepro. I am more of a video than audio guy and would prefer to redirect my money towards a UHD projector once they get the full hdmi 2 at 18 gb than towards a separate amp that far exceeds what is used, like buying a Lamborghini to only drive in rush hour traffic I guess.
Since this is the W4S thread, I see many here have had/heard ATI/Outlaw/Parasound/etc A/B amps, those that now have a W4S do you miss anything from the A/B types, I am asking this in relation to movie soundtracks only, unless it is viewed that movie soundtracks are about the same regardless of amp topology providing similar watts.
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post #1665 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 03:20 PM
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We're not class D for nothing... I listen to A LOT of soundtrack in digital and analog.

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post #1666 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whickywhickyjim View Post
No, it hasn't been modded or damaged. He just conceptually rejects the notion that one of their amps could be causing the hum I'm experiencing, despite that the hum disappears when I swap out the W4S amp.
Is the hum from the amp or through the speakers? What troubleshooting steps have you taken? I've had amps in my system that were dead quiet and others that have hum from the speakers. I recently bought a ST-500 that it has audible hum from about 12"-18" from the speaker. I also have a Boston Acoustics A7200 amp in the same system and it's dead quiet. When I disconnect all the interconnects to the ST-500 the hum stops so it appears to be a ground loop issue. If I add a cheater plug with the amp all cabled up the hum stops. So its not an issue with the ST-500 but somewhere in my system or in the house wiring.

Bill

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post #1667 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
Wow, if that is the case , I shouldn't notice any difference in using the internal amps of the Denon 4520 except perhaps when on rare occasions in which the majority of the 9 amps are being used simultaneously ! I will definitely have to do that since I never have used any of my AVR's int amps for the main 5 speakers ever since I migrated from a Lexicon DC2 prepro. I am more of a video than audio guy and would prefer to redirect my money towards a UHD projector once they get the full hdmi 2 at 18 gb than towards a separate amp that far exceeds what is used, like buying a Lamborghini to only drive in rush hour traffic I guess.
You are sitting 9ft from the furthest speaker, they are pretty sensitive and the 4520 is very stout for an AVR plus you don't listen over reference. You should definitely try the Denon before spending thousands on a massive amp that is really only useful for low sensitivity speakers in large rooms at long seating distances. Watching movies you will never be outputting the same wattage to all channels at the same time, not even close. Headroom is a great thing to have but having way more headroom then you will ever use and paying thousands for it doesn't make sense unless money is of no concern and you just want a giant cool looking amp. If you just want a separate amp that will easily do the job then the W4S 7 channel MMC at $2400 or the Outlaw (ATI) 7700 at $2150 would be more than capable.

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post #1668 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
The front L/R are Onix Rocket 1000, and the surround L/R are the Onix Rocket 850s. I sit 9 feet from the front L/R, and the surrounds are 7 feet from main listening position. My listening levels are at a comfortable level , I don't blast the volume as it becomes distracting and pulls me out of the movie. I understand your view that the amps won't be used at full potential in that they can drive higher volumes , but does the concept of the loud transients found in action movies and such derive any benefit from an amp that has higher output even if used at say 30-40% of its maximum?
Just wanted to add that you are probably using an average of around 5w per channel or less normally and when you turn it up to near reference maybe 10 to 15w with peaks in the front channels of 20 to 40w with a rare blip a little higher in one or two speakers. Now if you had a 4000 cubic foot room and sat 15' away and your speakers were around 87db sensitivity then it would be a different story. This assumes that you offload the deep bass to a sub, if not then that is where you should spend your money before buying an amp.

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post #1669 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 04:19 PM
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And I don't mean the "subs" built into your rockets.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Is the hum from the amp or through the speakers? What troubleshooting steps have you taken? I've had amps in my system that were dead quiet and others that have hum from the speakers. I recently bought a ST-500 that it has audible hum from about 12"-18" from the speaker. I also have a Boston Acoustics A7200 amp in the same system and it's dead quiet. When I disconnect all the interconnects to the ST-500 the hum stops so it appears to be a ground loop issue. If I add a cheater plug with the amp all cabled up the hum stops. So its not an issue with the ST-500 but somewhere in my system or in the house wiring.

Bill
Bill is correct. With the amp connected to your speakers and disconnected from the source do you have a hum? If not then the problem isn't the amp. I had a bad hum and by process of elimination I figured out it was my cable box, fixed the ground loop and could put my ear an inch from the speaker and all I heard was silence.

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post #1671 of 1676 Old 03-19-2015, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whickywhickyjim View Post
No, it hasn't been modded or damaged. He just conceptually rejects the notion that one of their amps could be causing the hum I'm experiencing, despite that the hum disappears when I swap out the W4S amp.


I had the same problem. Use one of these and the hum goes away..http://shop.1pcn.com/jensen-vrd-1ff-...ff-msrp-59-95/


The problem also goes away by using a cheater plug on the Wyred power cord, but I don't like doing that. I can say that it's the circuitry of the Wyred amp that causes the hum to be accentuated.
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post #1672 of 1676 Unread Today, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Is the hum from the amp or through the speakers? What troubleshooting steps have you taken? I've had amps in my system that were dead quiet and others that have hum from the speakers. I recently bought a ST-500 that it has audible hum from about 12"-18" from the speaker. I also have a Boston Acoustics A7200 amp in the same system and it's dead quiet. When I disconnect all the interconnects to the ST-500 the hum stops so it appears to be a ground loop issue. If I add a cheater plug with the amp all cabled up the hum stops. So its not an issue with the ST-500 but somewhere in my system or in the house wiring.



Bill

I haven't got a w4s yet but tomorrow I will be received the mmc7 black

Regarding hum

I had a hum too with my Elektra hd2 amp I solved it by making sure that the preamp my Marantz av7702 and the amp is plugged into the same circuit.

As my Elektra amp has 3 prong so an earth pin when I lifted the earth pin on the amp when I had a hum the hum goes away. You say when you plugged the other amp in u have no hum does the other amp have an earth pin 3 prong or just 2.

Also the other cause of my hum was my foxtel box cable box the guys didn't install the isolator outside which I sourced and that got rid of the hum also.

Hope this helps the other guy.


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post #1673 of 1676 Unread Today, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
Since this is the W4S thread, I see many here have had/heard ATI/Outlaw/Parasound/etc A/B amps, those that now have a W4S do you miss anything from the A/B types, I am asking this in relation to movie soundtracks only, unless it is viewed that movie soundtracks are about the same regardless of amp topology providing similar watts.
I have quite a few soundtracks on vinyl as well as CD that I listen to as well as tons of other types of music (mostly jazz, classical and easy listening) through the Wyred's and I have found no reason to change out to any other type of system.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by whickywhickyjim View Post
No, it hasn't been modded or damaged. He just conceptually rejects the notion that one of their amps could be causing the hum I'm experiencing, despite that the hum disappears when I swap out the W4S amp.
Many times to eliminate Hum from a particular component, I would make sure the cables to and from the device were not crossing each other and I've added RF chokes to the cables when just separating the cables didn't solve the issue. I'm not saying this is your problem, just suggesting possible quick and easy steps to take to potentially resolve the issue.

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My suspicion is his other has no ground pin.

Where as the amps with no ground pin.

Marantz emotiva para sound has an option to lift the ground pin


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post #1676 of 1676 Unread Today, 06:47 PM
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The reason why I am wanting to try the mmc7 as at the moment with my pre av7702 with the Elektra amp it is pegging my pre to minus 12 in the trims using xlr and I get a hiss and buzz in the midrange cause of it

My speakers are the paradigm studio 100 and cc690

I have read reviews the mmc7 works really well with these speakers and the av8801 the av7702 is similar

And read that it's dead silent.

Land also can't get rid of the midrange voice Bloom I am getting.

So hopefully this amp can cure these little issues and not to mention small efficient and does not get hot.


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