NHT power5 amp, Givin it some lovin - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 11:38 AM
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Alright, you guys have me convinced. I just placed an order for the Power 5.

Bruce said these units are going pretty fast so those of you sitting on the fence better hurry...
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post #272 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

I usually don't post things like this.

EJ doesn't know what he is talking about. He clearly has never measured either the Power2 or Power5.

The Power2 and Power5 easily exceed their output power ratings with all channels simultaneously driven. That was one of the design specifications. If the power supply is capable of enough continuous power output to power all of the amplifier channels to full power, there is no downside. In fact, it is an advantage to share power supplies between amplifier channels. Since the power demands from all of the channels are not 100% coherent (in phase and same amplitude), that allows channels with higher output demands to actually deliver much more peak power than the continuous rating.

The Power2 and Power5 both have channel to channel crosstalk of less than -100dB. Why in the world would you need it higher? It is already twice as high as it would ever need to be from a psychoacoustic standpoint.

Both of these measurements have been confirmed in a couple of reviews.

Jack,

Thank you for posting your thoughts. The many Power 5/2 owners can post how happy we are but your expertise validates the numbers and design. It is too bad that someone has to resort to bashing someone elses product with no basis or facts to back up their claims.

I feel the negative comments about the Power 5 made in the D-Sonic vs. W4S thread does not portray W4S very well. It would lead me to go with the D-Sonic over the W4S if I was looking at both, maybe others as well. I respect posts from the many company owners or reps who post here that are diplomatic and never slam other companies products.

Bill

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post #273 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 01:04 PM
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If I am not mistaken, W4S makes the D-Sonic amp. If I am wrong, I will delete this post.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #274 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 03:23 PM
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I thought they just used the same power modules.
Allen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rdrcr View Post

EJ,

The comparable D-Sonic Magnum 2000-7/5 has 525 watts for the front three channels and 250 watts for surrounds. Is there any reason that the D-Sonic produces more watts than my MC500? Does the D-Sonic use different ice modules or do they perform some tweak that allows them to extract more power from the module?

Thanks for the information regarding the differences of the amplifier.

Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Hi Mike,

Both amplifiers use the same modules, it's all in how the amplifier is rated. We are a little more conservative than he is with the ratings. I just finished testing the same unit as you have, and they actually put out 580W with >0.1% THD+N. I could also say that the amplifier puts out 800W in 8 ohms but the distortion numbers wouldn't be to great. We try to rate our amplifiers at the power output levels right before it starts to clip, not into clipping.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com

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post #275 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 04:19 PM
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IIRC, "Cullen Circuits" or some firm close to that manufactures the Wyred and D Sonic amps. The products differ in significant ways, though. There's a recent thread here on the topic of how they differ: link to thread

EJ has a number of things he believes to be true on a variety of subjects. You guys, on the other hand, are all facts and no heart.
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post #276 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

EJ has a number of things he believes to be true on a variety of subjects. You guys, on the other hand, are all facts and no heart.

I have a lot of heart. I just do not care when someone makes claims about a product in a negative way without having tested or listened to said product (especially when I own it). It is very unprofessional IMO.

Bill

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post #277 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 05:03 PM
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You missed the Colbert allusion ... "I don't trust books. They're all fact, no heart."

Anyway, he'd have been on safe ground if he'd stuck to just saying the modules won't produce 500 W each, because of the power supply.
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post #278 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

You missed the Colbert allusion ... "I don't trust books. They're all fact, no heart."

Anyway, he'd have been on safe ground if he'd stuck to just saying the modules won't produce 500 W each, because of the power supply.

Ahh I missed that. I should watch him more often, the few interviews I saw him do were very funny. You are correct, talk about shooting ones self in the foot.

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post #279 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

If I am not mistaken, W4S makes the D-Sonic amp. If I am wrong, I will delete this post.

Sorry just read the other thread were I saw that this is correct.
Allen
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post #280 of 584 Old 04-01-2008, 07:35 PM
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Just got my Power5! I was a little worried because the box had a small dent in it. But it wasn't deep enough to reach the Power5. Works fine (all 5 channel lights are green). Sounds better using my Denon 3300 as a pre-pro than with my Denon as a standalone. Won't make more of a difference until I replace my Denon and my speakers.

Only minor complaint is that the Power5 doesn't quite sit level; it rocks slightly. But overall, very pleased.
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post #281 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bahorn View Post

Just got my Power5! I was a little worried because the box had a small dent in it. But it wasn't deep enough to reach the Power5. Works fine (all 5 channel lights are green). Sounds better using my Denon 3300 as a pre-pro than with my Denon as a standalone. Won't make more of a difference until I replace my Denon and my speakers.

Only minor complaint is that the Power5 doesn't quite sit level; it rocks slightly. But overall, very pleased.

Bent the frame when UPS tossed the box.
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post #282 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanDallas View Post

Bent the frame when UPS tossed the box.

Hahaha... Even though you were joking (more or less), my amp's little light bulbs are out of depth alignment. Judging by Volgagerman's photos, it looks like I can open the unit and push the board forward if and when it starts to bug me. I'm a bit OCD on my system right now.

JP

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post #283 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

I usually don't post things like this.

EJ doesn't know what he is talking about. He clearly has never measured either the Power2 or Power5.

The Power2 and Power5 easily exceed their output power ratings with all channels simultaneously driven. That was one of the design specifications. If the power supply is capable of enough continuous power output to power all of the amplifier channels to full power, there is no downside. In fact, it is an advantage to share power supplies between amplifier channels. Since the power demands from all of the channels are not 100% coherent (in phase and same amplitude), that allows channels with higher output demands to actually deliver much more peak power than the continuous rating.

The Power2 and Power5 both have channel to channel crosstalk of less than -100dB. Why in the world would you need it higher? It is already twice as high as it would ever need to be from a psychoacoustic standpoint.

Both of these measurements have been confirmed in a couple of reviews.

Just to clarify a little,

I am not "bashing" your product, nor do I intend to as others may think. What I'm talking about is RMS power not PEAK power. You are correct in your statement above. The review that stated the output power with all channels driven is misleading. I know that all of the channels can not put out the same amount of power (RMS) with all channels driven simultaneously. I've had a lot of experience with the 500A modules and even more with the 500ASP modules. I've gained most of experience because of the failure with causes by the lack protection these modules offer, generally caused by customer errors. The only protection the 500A modules offer is under-voltage per B&O; this is why we quit using them on our customers' product.

EJ Sarmento
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www.wyred4sound.com / www.cullencircuits.com
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post #284 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 12:02 PM
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More detail was posted in another thread (link at the little arrow symbol below). BTW, I'd imagine Jack's "continuous" power reference means RMS, he makes reference to peak power separately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Hi Bill,

Yes, it looks as if there has been a mistake in the measurements. This amp is made up of 2 500ASP’s and 3 500A modules. 1 500ASP has 1 additional 500A module tagged on, and the other has 2 additional 500A modules connected. If the 1 and 1 channel was measured, or the 2 500ASP channels, these numbers are correct. Pulled from the Data sheet to back it up, the modules can pull a max current of 7A on the 80V line (power rail). If you apply ohms law, 7A x 80V = 560W. If the amplifiers are 100% efficient then you can get a MAX output of 560W between all connected channels.

So, if you have a 500ASP, powering 2 500A’s then all you can get is 188.66W if they’re 100% efficient from each when they’re all being driven regardless of load (8/4ohms). If you do the same for the other 2 channels, there will be an available 280W worth of power from each amplifier if it’s 100% efficient, which it isn’t.

I would imagine that the reviewer didn’t have a multi-channel Audio Precision capable of measuring all channels at one time. I would bet that either 2 500ASP’s or 1 500ASP and 1 500A were measured while all others were loaded, but not measured. This would “hide” the not so good specs of the differences between channel output power levels.

I hope none have taken offense to this, I’m just stating facts based on electronic principals to back up what I said.

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post #285 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 02:46 PM
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I am also talking about RMS power of course.

Both the Power2 and Power5 will deliver 200W/channel into an 8ohm load at rated distortion, with all channels driven at the same time. I guarantee it.

None of the math in the post directly above (#285) applies to the Power5 since, the Power5 isn't wired that way. I explained how the Power2 and Power5 are wired on pages 1 and 2 of this thread.

I completely agree about the total lack of protection circuitry on the B&O modules. It was very shortsighted of B&O to not include anything and especially dumb to not disclose this for a long time. For both the P2 and P5, we had to build an extra PCB to add all of the normal protection to the amplifier. Shorts, DC, etc. Any power amplifier without these basic protection circuits is just not acceptable.

Jack Hidley
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post #286 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 03:09 PM
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I have no clue who's right or wrong, but in my opinion, I think the burden of proof lies on the accuser (EJ).

He has questioned both Jack's statements about rated power and HT's methodologies. But he has not tested the amp. He is apparently making statements based on assumptions.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #287 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I have no clue who's right or wrong, but in my opinion, I think the burden of proof lies on the accuser (EJ).

He has questioned both Jack's statements about rated power and HT's methodologies. But he has not tested the amp. He is apparently making statements based on assumptions.

Michael,

I agree with your thoughts 100%. I have no doubt EJ knows his amps and amp design in general. But I think if Jack was saying the W4S amps will not do this or that without having any experience with them EJ would be upset as well.

I have no doubt that the NHT amps power ratings are as they are listed. And I also would like to believe that Steve Guttenberg of HT that wrote the review for the Power 5 knows how to measure the output of a amp. I think if he did not he would not be writing for HT.

Bill

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post #288 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

I am also talking about RMS power of course.

Both the Power2 and Power5 will deliver 200W/channel into an 8ohm load at rated distortion, with all channels driven at the same time. I guarantee it.

None of the math in the post directly above (#285) applies to the Power5 since, the Power5 isn't wired that way. I explained how the Power2 and Power5 are wired on pages 1 and 2 of this thread.

I completely agree about the total lack of protection circuitry on the B&O modules. It was very shortsighted of B&O to not include anything and especially dumb to not disclose this for a long time. For both the P2 and P5, we had to build an extra PCB to add all of the normal protection to the amplifier. Shorts, DC, etc. Any power amplifier without these basic protection circuits is just not acceptable.

Ok, that being said, the amp could put out 224W each channel @ 100% efficiency. I'm sure that you could get a little more for a very short period of time, but not with favorable THD levels and adding stress to the power supplies. I take back the previously posted, and never disagreed with the rated power levels of 200W per channel. I'm glad to see that NHT has rated it at that, and not stretching it beyond reality. The only reason I am involved in this was because it was used against our multi-channel $ for $. We both know the advantages of the 500ASP's, and also the downside of the cost. I'm sure that 5 x 500Asp would have much better specs when all channels are driven, but none the less they both put out their rated power. I apologize for what has become of this, but we know how some people dig deep, ask for your opinion, stir things up, and then slap it back in your face. I will never hold back from correcting myself when I'm in the wrong. I hope all is well and I mean harm to anyone in the industry, it's just that I won't hold back from straightening out something that I feel is incorrect.

EJ Sarmento
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post #289 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 03:51 PM
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If we can all agree D-Sonic and NHT produce up to their rated power, are there audible differences in the Power5 and D-Sonic 1000-5 since both use unmodified ICEpower modules?

Specifically, are there known differences in audio quality between the different ICE modules that would make one expect some level of discernible difference?

If not, then I might move up my amp purchase by several months and grab a Power5 and not the D-Sonic 1000-5. The Power5 is missing balanced input, but my pre/pro would be 3' from the amp so I'm not sure that would make any real difference?
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post #290 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Four amps and counting. I would prefer the headroom of the Wyred or D-sonic or the Axiom, but 200 watts is nothing to sneeze at and for 99% of the applications out there should be more than enough. I'll look into NHT as well.

EJ, This is the quote you was answering on the other thread ...so when you say:
Quote:


The only reason I am involved in this was because it was used against our multi-channel $ for $.

Its not exactly the case. Nobody in that entire thread said anything of the sort, it was even stated that if money wasnt an issue they would go with W4S or D-Sonics.

And when you say:

Quote:


and never disagreed with the rated power levels of 200W per channel.

This isnt exactly the case either, as I quote this from you on that same thread:

Quote:


I would bet that the Power 2 could only put out 100-150W in 8 ohms, both channels driven

And in ending I will quote you one more time :

Quote:


I hope all is well and I mean harm to anyone in the industry




PS. I will give you credit however, you did step up and respond. Your amps do look like excellant products and it would appear that they would be a great addition to anyone's HT.
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post #291 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 04:20 PM
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Jack,
Since we've got your attention here, I know 2x20wpc is plenty of power for the mids+upper on the C4s (at least at spl levels I listen), do you, or anyone else, think that 2x8wpc is too little for say 75db spl?

Regards,
Ricky
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post #292 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

If we can all agree D-Sonic and NHT produce up to their rated power, are there audible differences in the Power5 and D-Sonic 1000-5 since both use unmodified ICEpower modules?

Specifically, are there known differences in audio quality between the different ICE modules that would make one expect some level of discernible difference?

If not, then I might move up my amp purchase by several months and grab a Power5 and not the D-Sonic 1000-5. The Power5 is missing balanced input, but my pre/pro would be 3' from the amp so I'm not sure that would make any real difference?

yngdiego,

Better act fast as the Power 5s are going fast!

Doing a side by side comparison between the NHT, D-Sonic and W4S amps would be very interesting. It would answer many questions as far as SQ differences and power output.

Bill

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post #293 of 584 Old 04-02-2008, 09:17 PM
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I ordered my Power5 today from ListenUp. Bruce was very helpful with a special shipping request.

Waiting on Salk SongTowers and a Onkyo Pro 885 or Integra 9.8. We'll see how it all sounds!

Justin
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post #294 of 584 Old 04-03-2008, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYSportz View Post

I ordered my Power5 today from ListenUp. Bruce was very helpful with a special shipping request.

Waiting on Salk SongTowers and a Onkyo Pro 885 or Integra 9.8. We'll see how it all sounds!

Justin

Would love to hear your thought about this combo. If I get the speaker upgrade bug again, the SongTowers are near the top of my list. Do you also have the matching center speaker for the ST?

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #295 of 584 Old 04-03-2008, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

Would love to hear your thought about this combo. If I get the speaker upgrade bug again, the SongTowers are near the top of my list. Do you also have the matching center speaker for the ST?

Yes, I have a 5.0 set (with a SongCenter and the smaller MT surrounds) coming in. I'll let you know how it goes!

Justin
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post #296 of 584 Old 04-03-2008, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYSportz View Post

Yes, I have a 5.0 set (with a SongCenter and the smaller MT surrounds) coming in. I'll let you know how it goes!

Justin

Interesting. I'll be curious to hear what you think about this combo too. I'll have a similar combo (SongTowers, SongCenter, smaller SongSurrounds, NHT Power5) except I'm going with the NuForce AVP17 as my pre-pro. I decided to wait until another time to get a pre-pro with HDMI capabilities.
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post #297 of 584 Old 04-03-2008, 01:35 PM
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what kind of speakers do you all run with your Power5's?

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post #298 of 584 Old 04-03-2008, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave98svt View Post

what kind of speakers do you all run with your Power5's?

I just recently bought a Revel Performa F32 & C32. I have four Mirage OM-R2s for surrounds and JL Audio Fathom F112 for the low end.

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #299 of 584 Old 04-03-2008, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


what kind of speakers do you all run with your Power5's?


NHT M6's for front 3 , NHT L5's for surrounds. Fathom F112 for LFE. H/K 745 as a pre-pro. PS3 for Blu-ray.
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post #300 of 584 Old 04-03-2008, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave98svt View Post

what kind of speakers do you all run with your Power5's?

I have Dynaudio Focus 140s, 200C center with Def Tech BPvx surrounds and Outlaw LFM-Plus sub. I am using a Onkyo 805 as a pre-pro.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
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