Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 26347 Old 03-22-2008, 05:35 PM
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Thanks Darrell,

It is good to have a reference on what a component can do and since we have owned the same pre-pro's your thoughts come in really handy for me.

Looks like you gotta winner

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #272 of 26347 Old 03-22-2008, 06:55 PM
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Happy Easter to All!

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post #273 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohyeah32 View Post

Electronic gear when brand new (right out of the box), have likely have only been tested at the factory to see if all functionality and circuitry are working well. But once tested at the factory for quality assurance, it then gets boxed up and sent to dealers. I'm not sure as to exactly how it does what it does, but I can honestly say that the sound (especially in higher end gear that has many separate power transformers and processing chips) does indeed sound different after many months of use. I'm sure that this has something to do with allowing enough time for the circuit boards, DAC, DSP processing chips, power transformers, etc. to work together.

Everyone that I have talked with that owns high end gear have mirrored my thoughts on this.

But if a well designed product (like the Denon AVP), sounds great out of the box, it most likely will sound better and smoother over the course of many months of use.

Just because some people "say" break-in works this way, that don't also mean that it really does.

But it's funny how those who do say it does work that way, never ever seem to have any answers to the questions of....

How does the product only know how to break in for the better, and never for the worse?

How does the product know exactly when to stop the process of breaking in, so that it will not go too far and to the point where it would get worse?
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post #274 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Just because some people "say" break-in works this way, that don't also mean that it really does.

But it's funny how those who do say it does work that way, never ever seem to have any answers to the questions of....

How does the product only know how to break in for the better, and never for the worse?

How does the product know exactly when to stop the process of breaking in, so that it will not go too far and to the point where it would get worse?

All interesting questions- exactly the ones I've wondered myself when people talk about this. So should I assume that you don't think there is a break-in phenomenon? What would account for so many people thinking they hear a difference? (Our ears break-in to new equipment, perhaps?) I'm not saying there is or isn't a difference. I'd just like to know exactly what it is that's supposed to be happening in there.
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post #275 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Your forgiven but you might have to write a letter of apolgy to the Japanese

I think that my writing has been indeed flattering to "Made in Japan". It shows that it is highly desirable to me and that I was too eager to open their product. On the other side, if I have to write a "letter of apology" that would be addressed to "Made in China"...

I am embarrassed. Normally I don't react by impulse.
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post #276 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by orologio View Post

I think that my writing has been indeed flattering to "Made in Japan". It shows that it is highly desirable to me and that I was too eager to open their product. On the other side, if I have to write a "letter of apology" that would be addressed to "Made in China"...

I am embarrassed. Normally I don't react by impulse.

Don't be embarrassed mate, it's nothing.I've had my fair share of reacting without thinking.I guess most have.! Human nature.

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post #277 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkB View Post

Yes, I have the POA. Spot 2 mistakes...


Don't worry about the heat from the POA - it runs cool believe it or not. Actually, the top plate of the AVP is warmer that the POA! Anyway my stand arrives soon, then each part will have its own shelf.

I am only running 2 channels at the moment. I have bridged all channels of the POA and I am using 2 bridged amp pairs per channel - bi-amping them. Well all I can say is OMG the resolution, depth and delicacy from the 802Ds is just as good as I have ever heard them, easily as good as the Classe gear I heard them with in the shop. It does mean now though that I am going to need another POA when I get the next two 802Ds and an HTM1D!

The mistakes were the XLR R input is in the wrong socket (input) and the blue and yellow cables have been inverted.

Here are some more pictures, this time wired correctly.





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post #278 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

All interesting questions- exactly the ones I've wondered myself when people talk about this. So should I assume that you don't think there is a break-in phenomenon? What would account for so many people thinking they hear a difference? (Our ears break-in to new equipment, perhaps?) I'm not saying there is or isn't a difference. I'd just like to know exactly what it is that's supposed to be happening in there.

Its easier to describe with speakers - they are made so they break-in to their optimum after a few hundred hours of use. I expect the same is true for electronics - cables are normally "cooked" so that they are at optimum by the time they reach the customer, which is why high-end cables are directional. I am an engineer, but I cannot tell you why this is.

I can concur that the sound from my system is getting better, and this is due to all the parts getting to their optimum, including my 802Ds.
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post #279 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by orologio View Post

...I am embarrassed. Normally I don't react by impulse.

I wouldn't worry about it. I must admit, I thought it a bit strange that Denon would make these units in two areas when they have a high end manufacturing facility in Shirakawa, Japan.
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post #280 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

What would account for so many people thinking they hear a difference? (Our ears break-in to new equipment, perhaps?)

What accounts for the fact that so many people living near railroad tracks stop hearing passing trains after a while? The break-in equivalent would be that the trains actually got quieter after a few months, just as electronic equipment physically changes to match the buyer's personal preferences. The alternative explanation is that we humans eventually get used to the sound of something new, a concept that most break-in advocates find too unreasonable to consider.

Sanjay

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post #281 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 08:56 AM
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Hi, I'm considering the POA amp to go with the AVP pre/pro, but before I buy a POA with the AVP, I was wondering what other multi-channels amplifier brands/models with at least 7-channels to consider that are at the same price range as the POA with as good or better sound quality and power output. I am running B&W Nautilus 803 and HTM1 speakers.

The only other multi-channel amp that comes to my mind is the McIntosh MC207 amp. I hear a lot of good things about the Macs, but I do prefer the modern look of the POA and matching appearance to the AVP.
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post #282 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

What accounts for the fact that so many people living near railroad tracks stop hearing passing trains after a while? The break-in equivalent would be that the trains actually got quieter after a few months, just as electronic equipment physically changes to match the buyer's personal preferences. The alternative explanation is that we humans eventually get used to the sound of something new, a concept that most break-in advocates find too unreasonable to consider.

Sanjay

I don't find it unreasonable, but quite interesting, Another psychological theory would be the investment-commitment phenomenon: the more we invest in something, financially, emotionally, etc., the more committed we become to it. Happens in our relationships to spouses, politicians, cars....happens in many facets of life. Maybe as we build up our expectations for high-end AV gear, then spend a lot of money on it, then spend a lot of time with it and show it off to our friends, we become all the more enamored and convinced of its amazing sound and our great judgment in buying it. So voila, it sounds better.

Of course, I write this as my AVP sits in the other room, running continuously, as it has for nearly a week, slowly simmering its way to perfection. Can't hurt, right? (I also drive new cars very gingerly for the first couple hundred miles just because my Dad told me 30 years ago that that's the right way to do it....I have no idea why!)
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post #283 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 11:18 AM
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My break-in theory: All adjacent molecules in signal paths form themselves into electro-magnetic "river beds".
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post #284 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkB View Post

Don't worry about the heat from the POA - it runs cool believe it or not. Actually, the top plate of the AVP is warmer that the POA! Anyway my stand arrives soon, then each part will have its own shelf.

Does the AVP seem unusually warm to you? I'm surprised at how much heat mine generates just playing the radio. The back half of the top and the upper part of the back panel are not "hot" but quite warm to the touch. And this is with no VP going on.... Even the dig coax jacks feel pretty toasty.

Quote:


Here are some more pictures, this time wired correctly.

I love all those beefy cables! It looks like you're using the stock power cables on both units. Over here, some audiophile circles endlessly debate the merits of expensive aftermarket power cables with all kinds of shielding to prevent noise and interference with nearby interconnects. I was wondering if that debate rages there as well, considering that your power cables carry higher voltage, and whether, as your photos would suggest, you don't see any advantage to aftermarket cables ?
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post #285 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

My break-in theory: All adjacent molecules in signal paths form themselves into electro-magnetic "river beds".

Sounds plausible too. Do you know why this would affect the sound?
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post #286 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 12:10 PM
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I am enjoying the AVP more reach day. It is really sounding excellent with both HT and music. The problem now is I want to try a different amp. I am never happy. If anyone is interested in an excellent Gemstome 7X200wpc. just let me know.

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post #287 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

My break-in theory: All adjacent molecules in signal paths form themselves into electro-magnetic "river beds".

Could not have worded it better.
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post #288 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I write this as my AVP sits in the other room, running continuously, as it has for nearly a week, slowly simmering its way to perfection. Can't hurt, right?

Can't hurt. Soon the sound will be much better, at which point your AVP will stop breaking in.
Quote:


(I also drive new cars very gingerly for the first couple hundred miles just because my Dad told me 30 years ago that that's the right way to do it....I have no idea why!)

Because mechanical gears rubbing against each other can wear down, sometimes improving the fit and thereby improving performance. Of course, wear and tear will continue on these parts until performance eventually starts decreasing. Unlike AVPs, cars don't know when to stop breaking in.

Sanjay

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post #289 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 02:05 PM
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Can't hurt. Soon the sound will be much better, at which point your AVP will stop breaking in. Because mechanical gears rubbing against each other can wear down, sometimes improving the fit and thereby improving performance. Of course, wear and tear will continue on these parts until performance eventually starts decreasing. Unlike AVPs, cars don't know when to stop breaking in.

Sanjay

Sanjay,

It is aways nice to hear that you are still so helpfull
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post #290 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 02:12 PM
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Sanjay,

It is aways nice to hear that you are still so helpfull

Just as it is always sad to see you in any thread.

Sanjay

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post #291 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

Sanjay,

It is aways nice to hear that you are still so helpfull

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Just as it is always sad to see you in any thread.

Sanjay

Take it outside, boys......
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post #292 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 03:02 PM
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Just as it is always sad to see you in any thread.

Sanjay

Thank you sdurani. Glade I could make your day
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post #293 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Does the AVP seem unusually warm to you? I'm surprised at how much heat mine generates just playing the radio. The back half of the top and the upper part of the back panel are not "hot" but quite warm to the touch. And this is with no VP going on.... Even the dig coax jacks feel pretty toasty.

The AVP does seem to run quite warm, but I'm not worried by it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I love all those beefy cables! It looks like you're using the stock power cables on both units. Over here, some audiophile circles endlessly debate the merits of expensive aftermarket power cables with all kinds of shielding to prevent noise and interference with nearby interconnects. I was wondering if that debate rages there as well, considering that your power cables carry higher voltage, and whether, as your photos would suggest, you don't see any advantage to aftermarket cables ?

The power cable for the AVP is currently the cable that came in the box - the one on the POA is one that I managed to get from work - a high quality one made for sensitive measurement equipment.

I suppose new power cords could make a difference to the sound, but that will be an upgrade for the future and only after testing - I have other more important upgrades to make first!
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post #294 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 06:44 PM
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Unlike AVPs, cars don't know when to stop breaking in. Sanjay

Sure. By definition, products change from breaking in to breaking down at the termination of the warranty.

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post #295 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 08:25 PM
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Sanjay,

It is aways nice to hear that you are still so helpfull

Shameless.

John
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post #296 of 26347 Old 03-23-2008, 08:52 PM
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I have had my AVP set up for several days now and I am very happy with it. Since going to seperates from a Yamaha receiver about 12 years ago, I have had two Citations, an Anthem AVM20, an Anthem D1 and for a very short time the Krell S1000. This units bests them all for HT. I haven't done enough 2-channel listening yet to say, but I think it's as good as the Anthems for that. I set up the Audyssey Pro this afternoon and it adds a very sense of 3-dimentional sound to movies. My only complaint is the subs(I run 2 JL Audio F113) are a little weak, but I think that is a common complaint with Audyssey. It probably stems from the subs being set "correctly" instead of too hot the way most set them. Just my opinion.

How was the comparison with the Krell S1000 on music 2-channel abd MC as well as HT? I am considering the Denon, the Krell, the D2, and possibly the Classe or the Cary 11a/v.
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post #297 of 26347 Old 03-24-2008, 03:26 AM
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cables are normally "cooked" so that they are at optimum by the time they reach the customer, which is why high-end cables are directional. I am an engineer, but I cannot tell you why this is.


And yet even being a engineer who can not say why any of this is, you more or less imply that directional cables can only operate properly if they are aimed in the correct direction, (cough) and that they also may require a break-in/burn-in/cooking in order to operate properly. (cough, cough, cough) Unless there is a diode in them, electricity sure don't see them like a one way street and it will flow either way. And there sure is no reason or legit explanation for electricity to care if they have been "cooked" or not....The main reason why most directional cables are called directional, is not because that they have been "cooked", instead many times it is only because they leave one end ungrounded. And although that may or may not help some with a ground loop issue, it really should have no bearing on the sound. Also seeing as how there are even some vendors of power cords who say they use a directional cable in their construction as part of their wild claims about their products, that's a farce! Because any type of cable that is used for the operation of conducting a A/C voltage or signal, it really could not be directional and also still operate properly in passing A/C.
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post #298 of 26347 Old 03-24-2008, 03:55 AM
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elbret, the Denon outperforms the S1000 on EVERYTHING! That unit actually hurt my ears. As for the D1, it probably sounds at least equal to the Denon on two channel, but the Denon definitely wins for HT. I don't play any SACD or DVD-A so can't tell you. I watched "I am Legend" last night and the sound track was stunning! surround and LFE was just incredable. It was just a SD version, I have the Blu-Ray version coming from NetFlix, but couldn't wait for it to get here. In summary, I'll keep the Denon

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post #299 of 26347 Old 03-24-2008, 04:36 AM
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And yet even being a engineer who can not say why any of this is, you more or less imply that directional cables can only operate properly if they are aimed in the correct direction, (cough) and that they also may require a break-in/burn-in/cooking in order to operate properly. (cough, cough, cough) Unless there is a diode in them, electricity sure don't see them like a one way street and it will flow either way. And there sure is no reason or legit explanation for electricity to care if they have been "cooked" or not....The main reason why most directional cables are called directional, is not because that they have been "cooked", instead many times it is only because they leave one end ungrounded. And although that may or may not help some with a ground loop issue, it really should have no bearing on the sound. Also seeing as how there are even some vendors of power cords who say they use a directional cable in their construction as part of their wild claims about their products, that's a farce! Because any type of cable that is used for the operation of conducting a A/C voltage or signal, it really could not be directional and also still operate properly in passing A/C.

I did not imply anything at all. I am simply stating facts of what high end manufacturers do! Why should I give a legitimate explanation? I do not make these cables!

I just plug in cables, listen to the quality and if I like it it is job done for me. I could not care less if it is a scam or unnecessary really, and I don't constantly feel the need to find the truth about cables! If it makes you unhappy, just use stock cables and live in bliss at your knowledge that you have got one over on those hideous underhanded cable manufacturers
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post #300 of 26347 Old 03-24-2008, 05:14 AM
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Have to admit, I ended up changing most of my cables to audio quest cables reason being when I had a cheaper hdmi cable connected between my amp and projector I started to notice drop outs.At first I thought it was the projector sim 2 domino d35.I then upgraded the projector to the JVC HD1 and noticed the same thing.At the end I talked to my installer who straight asked what cables I was using I told him and he said you need a more quality cable.The cable was expensive, which I then changed all of them and don't get any more dropouts.I noticed the audio and the picture is very stable if you know what I mean.I do believe quality cables do make a difference.

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