Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 26370 Old 04-02-2008, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by stenvik View Post

Looking forward to read more about this, I'm tempting to order avp...

Any ideas if denon has created the avp/avc a1hd in mind for future upgrades. Thinking about digital part of pre amp, video processing unit/hdmi's ?

Stenvik- I think the only possible way to ensure future upgradeability is the Meridian 861 V4. But now we're talking (approximately) $20,000.

Russ
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post #542 of 26370 Old 04-02-2008, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Russ_L View Post

Stenvik- I think the only possible way to ensure future upgradeability is the Meridian 861 V4. But now we're talking (approximately) $20,000.

Russ

LOL such a bargain! I think the AVP features are fairly ahead of what's available now mediawise. How do you do better than lossless? Not all movies even have TrueHD / DTS-MA in fact I have 9 Bluray movies right here and only 2 of them have TrueHD / DTS-MA not a very good ratio.

HDMI v1.3 has deep color 7.1 lossless, really don't see them going to 9.x and deeper color. Perhaps 1600P? I don't see that happening for a while either.

Hmmm I see people selling for 50-60% off list for that unit on Audiogon new units too. I can't imagine though that Meridian makes the upgrades very affordable.
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post #543 of 26370 Old 04-02-2008, 07:36 AM
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Progprog: "First, do you have any concerns about disc space? .WAV files are so much bigger than .flac that I had to rule it out as an option for my music collection. "

Proprog: HD storage has become so cheap; especially relative to the price of an AVP. For example, I just picked up a 1TB Buffalo NAS for $499 from Newegg. I'm going to use it for music storage in a RAID5 configuration so only 750GB will be available but even so, assuming an average CD in .WAV form size of 600MB each, by my math (always suspect ) the NAS will be able to store 1250 Albums.
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post #544 of 26370 Old 04-02-2008, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ailean View Post

You should find that on a PC using the current flac command line tools that you can turn a WAV into a Flac and then turn the Flac back into a WAV which 'should' be identical.

Yes, exactly. This is why it's so interesting to me that there would be any detectable difference in their audio presentation.

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Originally Posted by elockett View Post

I'm pretty much sold on the AVP and from what you described, CD storage in .WAV seems to be the way to go, but the nagging issue of metadata remains. As others have asked, is there anyway to associate cover art and CD track information with .WAV files?

Eric

Maybe a new solution exists that wasn't around last time I looked into this. But in all my forum-prowling on this topic, this metadata issue is the biggest impediment for most serious "rippers." Especially with large music libraries, as I have, you really need extensive metadata capabilities to effectively organize and navigate through it.

When all's said and done, I still find that .flac files played through the AVP's DACs sound absolutely amazing. I've been listening to these same files for nearly a year and they clearly sound better through the AVP than on anything else I've heard. I even tried a Transporter for awhile, just for it's supposedly great DACs, but couldn't hear enough difference between that and the Squeezebox or Sonos (through my old receiver) to justify its $2000 price tag. The difference on the AVP, however, was apparent immediately. I think users that have any concerns about disc space or metadata limitations could still be more than happy using a lossless codec like .flac or Apple Lossless.
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post #545 of 26370 Old 04-02-2008, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by elockett View Post

I read the newsletter and that indeed has given me something new to think about. The PWT does sound interesting as well. I'll have to read more about it.

Take a look at some of the older newsletters, like December and January I think, where he goes into more detail about the technical requirements of music reproduction from a memory medium vs. a CD transport. It's pretty exciting that this whole field is really maturing and starting to hit the mainstream. I bet we'll see lots of new digital media products in the next couple years.

My prediction (don't throw anything at me!) is that CD transports for the purpose of actually spinning a disc and listening to the music on it will become a niche product in the not too distant future....
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post #546 of 26370 Old 04-02-2008, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Great info, Seth! Thanks for sharing your results. A couple questions about your plan to use .WAV files.
  • First, do you have any concerns about disc space? .WAV files are so much bigger than .flac that I had to rule it out as an option for my music collection.
  • Second, how are you tagging your music? Another issue I ran into with .WAV, aside from disc space, was that I couldn't tag them as extensively as I could with other formats. Maybe it was just the program I was using, but I couldn't include anything like album art or redundant fields.
  • Finally, what compression level did you use with your .flac encoder? I'm going to experiment and do some research, as I'm now very curious to understand what is happening with the .flac codec that alters the data in the ways that you and others have described.
Thanks again for taking the time to run your comparison tests and sharing your conclusions.

You're welcome. I was very thorough with my listening tests and figured I should share my findings.

With regards to disc space, well I am only going to be ripping my reference CD's to .WAV and all the rest to flac.or WMA Lossless. I have a 500GB hard drive and I have nearly 90 percent free space on it. And since my CD collection isn't very large (400 or so), and I will ripping only the tracks off each CD that I like and not the whole CD, I should have plenty of room.

As for tagging the music files, well I'm using Windows Media Player 11. And by using this all WAV files are automatically tagged with cover art, artist info, track listing, track running time etc. So once streamed to the Denon all that info is there to view on screen, or on the Denon's display window.

I am using Exact Audio Copy for flac and I have it set to normal for compression and medium for error correction. This has worked very well for me but I may experiment with different settings.


Seth


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post #547 of 26370 Old 04-02-2008, 05:36 PM
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OK, I finished the follow-up testing to the CD vs. Streaming post I made. In the first tests, I had come to the conclusion that the Streaming provided a wider and deeper soundstage, but that the sound was a bit soft, and that the CDs sound was more crisp and detailed (accurate).

BTW, I used Flac files (ripped with EAC, verified with Accu-rip) streamed via the AVP. I compared this to CDs played on my Denon 3930ci player, connected via Denon Link. All test were run in Direct Mode.

The group had some good suggestions requiring follow-up tests.

1) It was suggested that maybe the streaming was negatively impacting the timing and thus the SQ. It was suggested that I play the same files from a USB drive.

- I tried this, and could not hear any difference in the SQ. I conclude that the SQ via Streaming and direct USB connection is the same.

2) It was suggested that maybe the AVP ahndles WAV files better than Flac files. It was suggested that I rip some WAV files of the same songs, and compare the SQ of the WAV file to Flac file.

- I did this, and to my ears the WAV sounds more defined. I believe Seth came to the same conclusion in his testing. I conclude the Flac Codec in the AVP needs some work. Properly decoded FLAC files should sound the same as WAV files.


For many of this, using WAV files will be a problem for a few reasons.
1) Double the file size.
2) Hard to tag the file itself. This is aproblem for NAS users or those using a direct USB connection.
3) Some people already have FLAC libraries that they use for other devices (i.e IPOD-like devices).

Before we get all wound up, and storm the doors of Denon , can some other people try some FLAC vs. WAV test to verify if there is indeed an issue?

Regards,
Darrell
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post #548 of 26370 Old 04-02-2008, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elockett View Post

Seth,

Thank you for your feedback-it's very helpful. I'm pretty much sold on the AVP and from what you described, CD storage in .WAV seems to be the way to go, but the nagging issue of metadata remains. As others have asked, is there anyway to associate cover art and CD track information with .WAV files?

Eric

Eric,

You're welcome. Sorry for the late reply. Yes .WAV sounds excellent, and is now my choice for storing my reference CD's. And I'm not too sure what other programs let you tag .WAV, but I'm using Windows Media Player 11 and it works great! All CD info is tagged for .WAV files. So now I'm getting superb sound quality with streamed music and I get to see all the cover art and CD info on screen.

If you do go for the Denon AVP, I really think you're going to be impressed with it. It has more than lived up to my expectations, and in many ways even exceeded them.


Seth


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post #549 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 02:52 AM
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Truck arriveth TODAY!

2-4 hours, unfortunately 400LB sub is going to be real tough to bring in the house everyone I know is working. Who wants to help
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post #550 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pentium7 View Post

Truck arriveth TODAY!

2-4 hours, unfortunately 400LB sub is going to be real tough to bring in the house everyone I know is working. Who wants to help

No probs, just book the flight for me and I'll pop over.
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post #551 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by hmuller View Post

I have had my AVP-A1HD (UK version) for just over a week now and have to say that I am very impressed with the sound and video quality on this beast. Fed with my Tag DVD32 I was amazed how good it was with upscaling and CD's are sounding very impressive too. Also I havent had a single HDMI glitch since using it and since most of my sources are HDMI that is saying something from past experiences.

It took a few days playing to get the unit setup, mostly mucking around with the Audyssey stuff but once I had settled on an almost flat manual curve and tweaked the lower frequencies just a little the system came alive. I have to admit it also seems to be improving day by day. Watched Blade Runner HD-DVD on Dolby True HD last night and even my wife had to admit it sounded awesome.

My only gripe, and its not a big one since I dont really use the feature much, is the klutsy media streaming/Internet Radio interface and the fact that the interface seems to stick from time to time. Heres to hoping a firmware update will fix that soon.

Anyway if you are on the fence like I was for a while and was thinking about buying this baby I would have to recommend yes.

Alf

Grats Alf! Only thing that bugged me was the lack of direct IR commands to change aspecpt ratio or the the active hdmi output. Just meant I had to plug my VP50 and octava 3:2 hdmi switch back in. Having just switched to a Harmony remote this was fairly easy to reconfigure.
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post #552 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 07:35 AM
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I just ordered the AVP-A1HDCI and wonder how you guys are installing in a rack?

Middle Atantic RSH 4A?

also I read the pre pro runs quite warm: any recommendations to clearance on top in a rack?

Thanks for any advice
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post #553 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ailean View Post

Grats Alf! Only thing that bugged me was the lack of direct IR commands to change aspecpt ratio or the the active hdmi output. Just meant I had to plug my VP50 and octava 3:2 hdmi switch back in. Having just switched to a Harmony remote this was fairly easy to reconfigure.

Yeah I know what you mean. I used to use my VP30 to deinterlace and scale my DVD32 for that and aspect switching was really easy when they managed to get the Pronto support working again.

At the moment I let the Denon just do de-interlacing to 480p/575p and that allows me to use my Panny plasma to do the scaling (which is actually very good) and can easily change aspect ratio using the panny codes. When I get my HD100 (RS2) later this year I hope Denon would have catered for some custom codes by then.
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post #554 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I just ordered the AVP-A1HDCI and wonder how you guys are installing in a rack?

Middle Atantic RSH 4A?

also I read the pre pro runs quite warm: any recommendations to clearance on top in a rack?

Thanks for any advice

Actually I have been running my unit in between two amps on a three unit wide equipment shelf and monitoring the heat closely and it hasnt got very warm at all. Maybe its because its the UK unit but must say that it runs a heck of a lot cooler than my old Tag AV32 used to. You could fry eggs on that thing.
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post #555 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

MJ,

I agree with you on the bass out of the box re: the AVP2+6 and the Halcro. the Halcro's is more dynamic anyway. I use/used a SMS-1 sub EQ when testing all 3 systems, so I can't really speak to the "cleaness" o fhte units since I get a flat response on all 3. I did get good Bass out of the AVP2+6 though after tweaking.

The Denon AVP out of the box is probably in the middle of the two when it comes to Bass dynamics, but after I ran the Audyssey, the bass dynamics pretty much matched the Halcro.

[SNIP]

Darrell

Since the Denon AVP has Audyssey -- why would the SMS-1 even be used at all? I ask because I am seriously considering the sale of my pre/pro on A-gon and replacing it with the AVP and currently am equalizing three subs with my SMS-1 which does a great job, but do not understand why the Audyssey would not take care of the subs too.

It is getting close for me to get off the fence and get a modern pre/pro and this might be my last question -- the rest have been answered by reading several threads in forums.

MikeSp

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post #556 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ_L View Post

Stenvik- I think the only possible way to ensure future upgradeability is the Meridian 861 V4. But now we're talking (approximately) $20,000.

Russ

I considered the meridian my self and I am so glad I ended up with the denon.
By the time meridian will offer the upgrade you would be able to replace the denon with the newer with almost the same Amount.
i am extremely satisfied with the AVP. I haven't had the time to set it up properly and yet it sounds fantastic compared to my previuos pre-pro. It is the most significant upgrade after the speakers.
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post #557 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeSp View Post

Since the Denon AVP has Audyssey -- why would the SMS-1 even be used at all? I ask because I am seriously considering the sale of my pre/pro on A-gon and replacing it with the AVP and currently am equalizing three subs with my SMS-1 which does a great job, but do not understand why the Audyssey would not take care of the subs too.

MikeSp

Mike,

Chris, from Audyssey has been asked this a few times int he Audyssey thread his reply (paraphrasing) is that Audyssey will do a good job of dealing with the low end, but Audyssey has a finite number of correction points. If you have lots of correction to do in the low end, you will have less points for the rest of the frequencies.

He suggests that people who already have an SMS-1 (or ARO in a JL audio sub), use the SMS-1 to cut down any large problems areas in the bass range (cuts only, no boosts). By doing this, Audyssey only has to do minor tweaks in the bass area, leaving more correction points for the other frequencies.

Also, many folks like to run Audyssey when doing multi-channel, but turn it off for 2-ch. The folks that still like a sub in the mix for 2-ch will appreciate have the SMS-1 providing a pretty flat bass response in this configuration.

So, the SMS-1 seems to be a "nice to have item" with the Audyssey, not a "must have".

Right now, I am thrilled with my bass response. The SMS-1 and Audyssey have made a good combo. My bass right now is strong when it should be. If a Cruiser in Star Wars flys by, the room rumbles, but when playing music, the low end is clear and not overpowering. The bass is very well balanced, and you can easily differentiate between different types of bass drums, etc.

When you get the AVP, you can try setting the subs up with and without Audyssey. If you get similar results, you can always sell off the SMS-1. I wouldn't sell of the SMS-1 without trying it in the mix though.

Darrell
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post #558 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by orologio View Post

I considered the meridian my self and I am so glad I ended up with the denon.
By the time meridian will offer the upgrade you would be able to replace the denon with the newer with almost the same Amount.

It seems that a Meridian solution is on the horizon but the issue of relative cost is in doubt.

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post #559 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

Also, many folks like to run Audyssey when doing multi-channel, but turn it off for 2-ch. The folks that still like a sub in the mix for 2-ch will appreciate have the SMS-1 providing a pretty flat bass response in this configuration.

You can have Audyssey in stereo (I do) if you use a digital source.

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post #560 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 09:23 AM
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Here they are, imagine my face when I saw this truck roll up.

I am most upset that they didn't leave breathing holes in the big crate for my "beast" to get some oxygen

Let me know what you guys think and I'll be sure to show some setup pictures and my review of the Denon gear.

I haven't attached pics in a while hopefully they are OK.

Warning! Do not attempt to move the POA yourself. It says "Recommended 2 people" it should say "Mandatory" I guess some people have no trouble juggling 140LB amp but for me and the truck guy it was a mofo just moving it off the hand cart onto the floor.

Hope my salamander synergy is up to the task of holding this equipment, supposedly it can hold 750LB
LL
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post #561 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

You can have Audyssey in stereo (I do) if you use a digital source.

Kal,

I know you can run Audyssey in 2-CH mode. Some purist don't like to though. In those cases, the SMS-1 is helpful.

I had been meaning to ask if you used Audyssey when playing 2-CH music. Are you doing this witht he Integra? In 2-CH mode, do you utilize a sub?

I have the Denon AVP, and have tried 2-CH with the Audyssey and in Direct mode. Which I prefer, depends on the music I am playing. Overall, I slightly preferred the Direct mode 2 out of 3 times. I have tweaked my setting, so I will do this comparison again.

Thanks,
Darrell
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post #562 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pentium7 View Post

Here they are, imagine my face when I saw this truck roll up.

I am most upset that they didn't leave breathing holes in the big crate for my "beast" to get some oxygen

Let me know what you guys think and I'll be sure to show some setup pictures and my review of the Denon gear.

I haven't attached pics in a while hopefully they are OK.

I don't think you have room for all that gear. You can send that big box my way if you like.
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post #563 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

I don't think you have room for all that gear. You can send that big box my way if you like.

You are right, that's why we remodeled, broke down walls, moved the doorway to the bedroom to the otherside. After all of this is done construction moves to bedroom where they will do floors, walls, then guest bedroom after that. A home is a money pit hopefully we'll be happy enough to leave it alone for a decade or two or until we sell it (unlikely with this market)
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post #564 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by pentium7 View Post

A home is a money pit hopefully we'll be happy enough to leave it alone for a decade or two or until we sell it (unlikely with this market)

Or unitl you want a bigger sub. Wow, what a monster for home use.

Darrell
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post #565 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

Kal,

I know you can run Audyssey in 2-CH mode. Some purist don't like to though. In those cases, the SMS-1 is helpful.

I do not understand why it is good enough for multichannel but not for stereo unless those people assume that multichannel is HT and stereo is for music and that music should not be EQ-ed. I do not agee with that, of course.

Quote:


I had been meaning to ask if you used Audyssey when playing 2-CH music. Are you doing this witht he Integra? In 2-CH mode, do you utilize a sub?

Yes. Yes (for the time being). Depends on the speakers.

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post #566 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 10:05 AM
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In case anyone wanted to see Transparent cables is what I'm using, specifically the Musiclink Plus series. Didn't really think that $33,000 for a pair of 8' speaker wire (their top end stuff) would be a good choice. These were much cheaper. I believe I spent $5K total on wiring, what's the normal % that they usually say to spend? I think I was in the ballpark.

I am surprised at people buying AVP and expensive amps and speakers to use cheapy interconnects. You do have to do some research to find what is really a waste of money and what is worthwhile. For example I opted to spend far less on the small HDMI cables, I did get the expensive 35 foot HDMI from receiver to projector but the rest are all 1M cables and that just doesn't matter in the digital realm of HDMI (from the reading I've done)
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post #567 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pentium7 View Post

Truck arriveth TODAY!

2-4 hours, unfortunately 400LB sub is going to be real tough to bring in the house everyone I know is working. Who wants to help

First off, BIG, HUGE Congratulations on all of that sweet AV gear! WOW! All that stuff is going to keep you busy for a while. But that's the fun part, unpacking all that shiny new gear, and getting it all connected. I was jumping up and down when I got my AVP and 2500BTCI, so I can only imagine how happy you are with everything that you got. Again WOW!

And if I lived in the area I would love to come over and give a hand.

BTW thanks for sharing the pix, very impressive. Enjoy!



Seth


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post #568 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pentium7 View Post


Okay, you have officially won my Audio-Geek-of-the-Year Award!! No one else need compete! This picture is just priceless..... Frame it and hang it.
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post #569 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I just ordered the AVP-A1HDCI and wonder how you guys are installing in a rack?

Middle Atantic RSH 4A?

also I read the pre pro runs quite warm: any recommendations to clearance on top in a rack?

Thanks for any advice

Congratulations on your Denon AVP! I think you're really going to enjoy it. Curious, which pre/pro are you coming from?

Yes after many hours of use it does get pretty warm, but I've never had mine get hot. I'm sure it will be fine rack mounted, but just to be certain I would call Denon and ask them.


Seth


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post #570 of 26370 Old 04-03-2008, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, you have officially won my Audio-Geek-of-the-Year Award!! No one else need compete! This picture is just priceless..... Frame it and hang it.

Totally agree. Yes that picture is definitely priceless!


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