Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 229 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Life isn't fair.

Exchange rates are exchange rates. My point was, if you don't like them, then you can opt to not purchase things from countries with higher exchange rates. It is what it is...

WADR, I think you're completely missing the point. This isn't about exchange rates....it's about Denon's marketing and pricing choices. Wherever you live, anywhere in the world, it's not very easy to buy a version of a product you want from a different market. Our European and Australian friends are sold a version of the AVP that lacks tuners and Audyssey Pro capability, and yet it costs a lot more. Not a function of exchange rates. And then, they get charged for Dynamic Volume. Not a function of exchange rates. Entirely a function of Denon.
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

..... or work in another country and buy products there to bring back home.

Of course....everybody has that option!
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:39 PM
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[Difficult, our mains voltage is 230, the US is 110.
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

WADR, I think you're completely missing the point. This isn't about exchange rates....it's about Denon's marketing and pricing choices. Wherever you live, anywhere in the world, it's not very easy to buy a version of a product you want from a different market. Our European and Australian friends are sold a version of the AVP that lacks tuners and Audyssey Pro capability, and yet it costs a lot more. Not a function of exchange rates. And then, they get charged for Dynamic Volume. Not a function of exchange rates. Entirely a function of Denon.

I got the point... I already said, "life is not fair."

For all you know there may be good reasons why it is that way. Or maybe not. Either way, complaining about it in this thread isn't going to change much.

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance."
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Old 10-12-2008, 02:39 PM
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I have been considering getting two POA amplifiers to go along with my AVP, but have some questions I was hoping you guys could help me with.

I am in the process of getting some new speakers (Aerial LR5 & CC5) that are not very sensitive 86 db and everyone who has them says to feed them alot of power. What I was considering doing is getting two POA amplifiers and using four of the 10 channels for each speaker. I would bridge two channels and run to the low end of each speaker and bridge two channels for the highs of each speaker. I would also do this for the center channel which would use up 12 of the 20 channels all together. I would bridge the other eight channels for my four surrounds.

Hear are some of the questions I have come up with myself.

1) I will need to get some XLR cables that have two connectors on the amp end

2) Can the POA be run in this configuration. (I'm not 100%)

3) Will this be hard on the POA to be run in this configuration.

4) The Aerials are a nominal 4 ohm speaker but do dip into the 3 ohm region according to the specs on there website. Will the Denon be able to handle this type of load without stressing itself.


Looking over the specs from the Denon website they are claiming 500 watts when bridged into 4 ohms. This means I would be putting 1000 watts total into each of the front three speakers and 500 watts to each surround.


Below is a paragraph that I copied and pasted from the review at Audioholics. This paragraph comes from the beginning part of the review but I don't take it as part of the review it just says it's a "Amplifier Connection type Definitions".


Bridge Mode: This connection allows you to use two amplifier channels to output opposite phase signals generated from one input signal. When you bridge an amplifier, you effectively double the output voltage with can yield up to 4 times the rated output power assuming the power supply can deliver that much current. This is a good idea for applications that require lots of power to reach high SPL's but its important to note that each amplifier effectively sees ½ the rated impedance of the loudspeaker so if your speaker system is rated nominally at 4-ohms, be sure the amplifier is stable for two ohm loads before bridging it. Never bridge an amplifier that isn't designed to do so!

So if the Aerials are 4 ohms and dip into the 3 ohm range this means the Denon would be seeing 2 ohms to 1.5 ohms. This is why I ask if the Denon can handle it.


I hope I made everything clear as to my thinking on this setup, and I look forward to your input.
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Do you guys think that the varying impressions of Audyssey's results are more a function of quirks in getting it set up, or just different owners' tastes? I've been reading the Audyssey talk all along and it seems that some people just love it and others never even like it, no matter how many times they run it. I've never been able to discern whether that's a reflection on Audyssey's performance or the difficulty of setting it up.

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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Interesting observation; thanks for the feedback. I have wondered about just that, as I have really noticed that some speakers are far more "directional" than others, and wondered how Audyssey deals with those differences. I guess it makes a lot of sense that the speaker interaction would be a really significant factor. In my HT, I use bipolars, so we'll see how Audyssey likes those!

Having studied the whole room acoustics and EQ topic for more than a decade, and having played a lot with Audyssey and now the Audyssey Pro kit, I can confirm that there are several reasons for the widely varying opinions or results in use of this feature.
  • The room- How good or bad things are to start with will definitely affect the outcome. Audyssey can't undo horrible acoustics
  • The Measuring process- This one is critical, as a poorly done measurement set will generate wildy skewed results. Following the setup posted on the Wiki will save people time and give good results.
  • The actual speakers vs the measuring process, as some are more directional, or have diffuse soundfields (dipoles/bipoles) and are MUCH trickier to get a measurement set on.
So if you don't get a great result, try re-measuring with a tighter spacing of the mic positions, and vay the height on at least two of the positions.

Additionally, all the comments about how people are accustomed to bad' sound are absolutely true.
Especially in the bass, people confuse boom with bass, but a totally accurate bass is a different animal, and unless you've auditioned extensively in a room with accurate bass, you'd think it was too thin'.

Once you've lived with deep, accurate bass, other systems sound bloated, distorted and next to unlistenable.
Likewise with accurate mids and highs.

So try multiple times, part of it is just learning how to measure right.
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sheridd2 View Post

[Difficult, our mains voltage is 230, the US is 110.

???? good 220v to 110v of 500W power converter is only 50-60 Euros

Got a US AVP, a US DVD-3800BDCI, a US BD10, a Japanese CLD959 and a D-Theater deck which can only be a US import too ...

You wanna a perfectly clean power converter instead of a "radiosack" thing ? No problemo, some high end UPS can do than, Furman got a product, Richard Grey go something that downconverts ...

It's 21st century, we have internet, wanna something ? It's some easy to get now !
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by KX250F View Post

I have been considering getting two POA amplifiers to go along with my AVP, but have some questions I was hoping you guys could help me with.

I am in the process of getting some new speakers (Aerial LR5 & CC5) that are not very sensitive 86 db and everyone who has them says to feed them alot of power. What I was considering doing is getting two POA amplifiers and using four of the 10 channels for each speaker. I would bridge two channels and run to the low end of each speaker and bridge two channels for the highs of each speaker. I would also do this for the center channel which would use up 12 of the 20 channels all together. I would bridge the other eight channels for my four surrounds.

Hear are some of the questions I have come up with myself.

1) I will need to get some XLR cables that have two connectors on the amp end

2) Can the POA be run in this configuration. (I'm not 100%)

No that is not safe, you will have to use use active crossover filter (that is not so expensive but you will need one per speaker or 1 for two depending on which you will get)
http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG this one is an example of what you should get.
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Old 10-12-2008, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Sorry to be presumptuous. Page 72 of the manual explains the reset process. As a technophile, I couldn't agree more: when it works, it's a thing of beauty, when it doesn't....well, those home-theaters-in-a-box almost start to look appealing.

meaning the actual AVP. It threw me when I read it before but after you pointed it out that was the ticket as that let me immediately connect wirelessly after resetting. The only problem was I had to reset all of my personal settings for Denon Link, equipment names, channel levels, etc. That was a bit of a pain. I can see that having a wired connection is probably best and will look at that as a solution in the future. Thanks for your help!

KrellAV

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Old 10-12-2008, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sheridd2 View Post

[Difficult, our mains voltage is 230, the US is 110.

Actually most of US mains are 230/240 volt too but our wall plugs are 110v. We use 230 for heavy appliances such as ovens, stoves, clothes dryers, heating, AC, hot tubs, etc.

Of course we are at 60 hz vs 50 hz which makes it another problem altogether.

Chris
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Krellav View Post

meaning the actual AVP. It threw me when I read it before but after you pointed it out that was the ticket as that let me immediately connect wirelessly after resetting. The only problem was I had to reset all of my personal settings for Denon Link, equipment names, channel levels, etc. That was a bit of a pain. I can see that having a wired connection is probably best and will look at that as a solution in the future. Thanks for your help!

KrellAV

Glad it worked out. Once all your settings are back to where you want them, be sure to save your configuration so you don't have to go through all that again next time.


Added Note: Another option, when a wired connection is not a viable option and the AVP's wireless connection is problematic for your network, is a wireless bridge. I run an all-802.11n network and I don't want any 802.11g devices on it, since they can slow it down. My solution is to use a couple wireless bridge units in my home theater. Each one is like a switch where the connection back to the router happens to be wireless. All connected devices (AVP, disc players, TiVo, PS3, etc.) are connected to it via their ethernet ports and "think" they have a hard-wired connection. It's very stable.
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I got the point... I already said, "life is not fair."

For all you know there may be good reasons why it is that way. Or maybe not. Either way, complaining about it in this thread isn't going to change much.

The prices for Denon products are set by the Denon country organization. It is based on their volume of units sold (bigger discount based on how many units they take from Denon) and how much they need for support. Buying a unit from another country means that you give up your warranty because its the Denon country organization from which you purchased it that supplies the warranty support, not Denon International.

So if your country has less units sold its not surprising that the costs would be higher for the unit and the shared support cost per unit could be higher too. Then of course you fold in competition (for those paying less than retail) and you have some significant price differentials.

Can't comment why the NA units are different in features but somehow Denon NA wanted a different set of specs.

Chris
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:33 PM
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To add to this: I wouldn't be surprised if Denon in different countries had nothing to do with Denon in the US. I think its a large case of the left arm having no idea what the right arm is doing.
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jackox View Post

Got a US AVP, a US DVD-3800BDCI, a US BD10, a Japanese CLD959 and a D-Theater deck which can only be a US import too ...
.........
It's 21st century, we have internet, wanna something ? It's some easy to get now !

Do you worry at all about these warranty issues with your out-of-country equipment?
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Old 10-13-2008, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackox View Post


Quote:


Originally Posted by KX250F
I have been considering getting two POA amplifiers to go along with my AVP, but have some questions I was hoping you guys could help me with.

I am in the process of getting some new speakers (Aerial LR5 & CC5) that are not very sensitive 86 db and everyone who has them says to feed them alot of power. What I was considering doing is getting two POA amplifiers and using four of the 10 channels for each speaker. I would bridge two channels and run to the low end of each speaker and bridge two channels for the highs of each speaker. I would also do this for the center channel which would use up 12 of the 20 channels all together. I would bridge the other eight channels for my four surrounds.

Hear are some of the questions I have come up with myself.

1) I will need to get some XLR cables that have two connectors on the amp end

2) Can the POA be run in this configuration. (I'm not 100%)

No that is not safe, you will have to use use active crossover filter (that is not so expensive but you will need one per speaker or 1 for two depending on which you will get)
http://www.behringer.com/DCX2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG this one is an example of what you should get.


KX250F,

I agree that your speakers could use a good strong amp. And what you propose is to actually do some passive bi-amping.

FYI to others: Passive bi-amping is the use two or more amp channels to power the separate (pay close attention to the word Separate) and independent crossover inputs on some high-end speakers.

In the case of the Aerial LR5, it is bi-amp capable (first, remove any binding straps across the twin inputs on the speaker).

So yes, you could drive each speaker with two amp channels.

As for bridging the POA amps, please check into whether the impedance minimums, as they change when bridged, as the nominal impedance of the LR5 is pretty low (4 to 5 ohms for both crossovers combined, it might be different for lows vs highs when bi-amping, call the factory).

I'd say you'd have enough power with just bi-amping the three fronts, which would use six of the 10 POA amps, leaving four for your surrounds. Start with that and see how it works out.

As for the suggestion to put in an active crossover before the speakers, that's tricky, as you would also have to bypass the passive crossovers in the speakers. Major advanced stuff.

BTW- I've done that with my MartinLogan set, and use the DBX DriveRacks (4800 /260) as my active crossovers and speaker processors. The DCX listed is good for lower-end systems, but not what I'd recommend putting behind an AVP. The DBX 4800 is superbly transparent (as one might expect for a $5K unit).
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Old 10-13-2008, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Aesculus View Post

The prices for Denon products are set by the Denon country organization. It is based on their volume of units sold (bigger discount based on how many units they take from Denon) and how much they need for support.

...

So if your country has less units sold its not surprising that the costs would be higher for the unit and the shared support cost per unit could be higher too.

...

That was exactly what I had in mind when I made that comment you quoted, but I didn't have time to research it.

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Old 10-13-2008, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by the rick View Post

To add to this: I wouldn't be surprised if Denon in different countries had nothing to do with Denon in the US. I think its a large case of the left arm having no idea what the right arm is doing.

Thats is correct.

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Old 10-13-2008, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Do you worry at all about these warranty issues with your out-of-country equipment?

I would worry, Im not blowing $7000 for a could be DOA unit. There has been some of them around.

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Old 10-13-2008, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Aesculus View Post

Of course we are at 60 hz vs 50 hz which makes it another problem altogether.

Not really actually.
All my US and Japan imported stuff work perfect with 110v kept at 50Hz.
If you really want 110V at 60Hz you can find converters that can bring 50Hz up to 60Hz (they cost alright, but they do exist)
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:59 AM
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Do you worry at all about these warranty issues with your out-of-country equipment?


Nope ! I send the units back to my US reseller and he works the warranty and hardware updates himself (did it with the DVD-3800BDCI 24Hz debugg)
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:10 AM
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Nope ! I send the units back to my US reseller and he works the warranty and hardware updates himself (did it with the DVD-3800BDCI 24Hz debugg)

You have a good dealer. Here in the US there is a whole string of electronic dealers (mostly in NYC) that buy gray market goods that have no warranty. They then sell them with their own warranty (which is nothing but swapping out a unit in the first few weeks if you can even get them to do that) or claim they do in house repairs (they have no repair capabilities). After that you are hosed. In many cases the deal is not all that much better than a good dealer with a real warranty. Might just as well buy used. Its even cheaper.

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Old 10-13-2008, 08:30 AM
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You have a good dealer.

Yep ! One of the best !
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Old 10-13-2008, 10:06 AM
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Nope ! I send the units back to my US reseller and he works the warranty and hardware updates himself (did it with the DVD-3800BDCI 24Hz debugg)

You can't argue with that. Thats service

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Old 10-13-2008, 03:29 PM
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Hi Guys,

On an whim I picked up Jethro Tull Live at Montreux 2003 on Blu Ray seeing that it had a DTS HD MA track. I haven't listened to Jethro Tull for probably 10 years and was pleasantly surprised, I'd forgotten how good a flute player Ian Anderson and how interesting his rock/classical fusion can be.
More importantly though it is a well recorded live concert Blu Ray that exploits the potential of DTS HD MA and the AVP's ability with it. I'd say that it and Pat Metheney's The Way Up Live on Blu Ray are must haves for reference Blu Ray music discs.
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Old 10-13-2008, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KX250F View Post

I have been considering getting two POA amplifiers to go along with my AVP, but have some questions I was hoping you guys could help me with.

I am in the process of getting some new speakers (Aerial LR5 & CC5) that are not very sensitive 86 db and everyone who has them says to feed them alot of power. What I was considering doing is getting two POA amplifiers and using four of the 10 channels for each speaker. I would bridge two channels and run to the low end of each speaker and bridge two channels for the highs of each speaker. I would also do this for the center channel which would use up 12 of the 20 channels all together. I would bridge the other eight channels for my four surrounds.

Hear are some of the questions I have come up with myself.

1) I will need to get some XLR cables that have two connectors on the amp end

2) Can the POA be run in this configuration. (I'm not 100%)

3) Will this be hard on the POA to be run in this configuration.

4) The Aerials are a nominal 4 ohm speaker but do dip into the 3 ohm region according to the specs on there website. Will the Denon be able to handle this type of load without stressing itself.


Looking over the specs from the Denon website they are claiming 500 watts when bridged into 4 ohms. This means I would be putting 1000 watts total into each of the front three speakers and 500 watts to each surround.


Below is a paragraph that I copied and pasted from the review at Audioholics. This paragraph comes from the beginning part of the review but I don't take it as part of the review it just says it's a "Amplifier Connection type Definitions".


Bridge Mode: This connection allows you to use two amplifier channels to output opposite phase signals generated from one input signal. When you bridge an amplifier, you effectively double the output voltage with can yield up to 4 times the rated output power assuming the power supply can deliver that much current. This is a good idea for applications that require lots of power to reach high SPL's but its important to note that each amplifier effectively sees ½ the rated impedance of the loudspeaker so if your speaker system is rated nominally at 4-ohms, be sure the amplifier is stable for two ohm loads before bridging it. Never bridge an amplifier that isn't designed to do so!

So if the Aerials are 4 ohms and dip into the 3 ohm range this means the Denon would be seeing 2 ohms to 1.5 ohms. This is why I ask if the Denon can handle it.


I hope I made everything clear as to my thinking on this setup, and I look forward to your input.

ShaharT is doing exactly what you described with his B&W's as described here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post13991948 and shown here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post14151559
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Old 10-14-2008, 12:38 AM
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Hai,

Again a small warning, i got the 'volume goes crazy' bug again on one of my inputs. This time it was not triggered by a firmware upgrade but because i changed a setting by mistake (putting it back didn't help). Saving and loading the setup didn't help. So people be careful with the europe version since this adds about 30dB signal to a input and made my poa go into overdrive.

Ill contact denon today and try to get to talk to a engineer if we can debug it together. Ive made a 'save' of a broken setup so maybe that will help.

But i did notice something : Is it normal that a 'save', reset and 'load' of a setting doesn't include audesey ?

Once loaded i got everything back (input names, poa settings etc etc) except audessey).

Daniel.

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Old 10-14-2008, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Hai,

Again a small warning, i got the 'volume goes crazy' bug again on one of my inputs. This time it was not triggered by a firmware upgrade but because i changed a setting by mistake (putting it back didn't help). Saving and loading the setup didn't help. So people be careful with the europe version since this adds about 30dB signal to a input and made my poa go into overdrive.

Ill contact denon today and try to get to talk to a engineer if we can debug it together. Ive made a 'save' of a broken setup so maybe that will help.

But i did notice something : Is it normal that a 'save', reset and 'load' of a setting doesn't include audesey ?

Once loaded i got everything back (input names, poa settings etc etc) except audessey).

Daniel.


Daniel from what I know it should save the AUdyssey settings.

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Old 10-14-2008, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Daniel from what I know it should save the AUdyssey settings.

has most defintely saved full audyssey and complete system setup for me as well and uploaded each time have done an upload.

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Old 10-14-2008, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

has most defintely saved full audyssey and complete system setup for me as well and uploaded each time have done an upload.

Same here.

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Old 10-14-2008, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jackox View Post

Nope ! I send the units back to my US reseller and he works the warranty and hardware updates himself (did it with the DVD-3800BDCI 24Hz debugg)

Who pays for all that overseas shipping? Seems like it'd be awfully expensive, and that both the risk and cost of that would start to outweigh other benefits at some point. (I guess I'm wary now of shipping to/from Europe ever since my daughter lived there and only about half the stuff we shipped- both ways- ever reached its destination. )
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