Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 875 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 27Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #26221 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 02:38 AM
Senior Member
 
grassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by robgarcia View Post
Well i am a proud new owner of a A1HDCI with the x32 3d upgrade, it arrives next week.
can not wait to get it. still looking for the matching amp no luck yet, got a question any other mods you can do to it to make the unit better ?
and do you think denon will offer another upgrade for Atmos.
Congrats on your new purchase, You will not be disappointed with the AVP as the attention to detail is second to none and its definitely not a tin box that"s for sure.It will keep you busy for hours and hours unlocking its secret places in the menus.The upgraded xt32 upgrade has done wonders for my center channel with the clarity and know doubt you will notice a real crispness to the sound overall. I really don't think Denon will offer an upgrade for Atmos, but having said that you never know whats around the corner but that will be a question i could very well ask at Denon Tech support over here Downunder. Its a real winner the AVP and does everything that its makers have promised and then some. Congrats and welcome to the club.

Fame is a mask that eats into the face.

grassy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #26222 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 04:36 AM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,565
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by robgarcia View Post
Well i am a proud new owner of a A1HDCI with the x32 3d upgrade, it arrives next week.
Congrats!

Quote:
Originally Posted by robgarcia View Post
can not wait to get it. still looking for the matching amp no luck yet, got a question any other mods you can do to it to make the unit better ?
There's a company in Germany (IIRC) that does do extensive (and expensive) mods to the AVP that seem to have received favorable reviews, but that's most likely not practical unless you live relatively close to them. It's pretty darned good in stock form though .

Quote:
Originally Posted by robgarcia View Post
and do you think denon will offer another upgrade for Atmos.
That would be extremely unlikely as the AVP is a discontinued product and Atmos would most likely require some fairly extensive hardware changes. For that matter, I suspect that any further upgrades of any sort are very unlikely at this point.
gsr is offline  
post #26223 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 03:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ganymed4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
That would be extremely unlikely as the AVP is a discontinued product and Atmos would most likely require some fairly extensive hardware changes. For that matter, I suspect that any further upgrades of any sort are very unlikely at this point.
Congratulations also from me. You will love it.

I agree to gsr. However, I also read for other AVRs that ATMOS is just a firmware-upgrade and you only need the processing power - it seems - to get it working. The new Onkyo AVRs and pre/pro have 11.2 outputs, so maybe even an AVP with 9.3 would work. I mean I don't know, if these units, which will get ATMOS via firmware upgrade need somehow to be prepared for it on the hardware side - who knows?
However, even if this would be just a software upgrade, it would cost Denon some money, at least to implement it and investing money into an EoS product

We are also waiting for an announcement of a new A1 product - hope dies last...
Ganymed4 is offline  
post #26224 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 03:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 20
As much as I'd love to contemplate an upgrade to the existing A1 to add Atmos, I doubt that will happen.

But just in case Denon is reading this, I would gladly pay $2K for a upgrade of the HDMI and audio processing boards to retrofit Atmos to my current machine.

I'm also one of those who will likely part with $7K (or more) sometime in the next year or two for a new Atmos-enabled SSP.

The Trinnov Altitude32 has me temped. But the $20K ~ $30K has given me pause.
JonFo is offline  
post #26225 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 04:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ganymed4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 58
I just read most of the Atmos thread and what I found there, didn't sound to me this appealing. I mean, 3D sound formats for 3D video.

Currently I also don't think that the development has reached a stable phase. There are still many developments and upcoming new standards and functions like HDMI 2.0, DTS UHD or MDA, may be new Blu-Ray standards in the next time.

I mean, where will us lead all this? I buy a new Atmos enabled AVR and in the next year it is outdated, because there is DTS UHD

The AVP-A1 was issued by Denon at a point in time, there was some stability of the development and with the Update, four years after it's initial release, it was updated to the current technology. If you want to do the same today, the technology - IMO - is not stable currently. The industry is running from one intermediate goal to the next. I mean, what happened to Neo:X?? I have two Blu-Rays with Neo:X, that's it. Up-conversion is nice but doesn't beat the real thing. Now we are talking about putting the just introduced height and wide speakers to sleep and put new ceiling speakers on our ceiling. I mean are these guys nuts??? And after reading the Atmos thread and especially the Audioholics article about it, asking the right questions IMU, the whole Atmos stuff generates a big hype currently but very little is known. I see the biggest problem with the ceiling speakers, practical and also from the sound. This is all too early in my understanding to jump onto the bandwagon.
It is also surprising or not, but in pure direct mode, my AVP sounds best in my setup. Atmos will add a lot more computational process, which can't be good for the overall sound experience than a channel based system - tag line: object oriented sound. But we don't know, how much objects will be possible in Atmos for the home yet. Not my cup of tea, really.

Just my two cents. Stick with my AVP as it is and with 7.2 or 9.2.
Ganymed4 is offline  
post #26226 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 04:51 PM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,565
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
But just in case Denon is reading this, I would gladly pay $2K for a upgrade of the HDMI and audio processing boards to retrofit Atmos to my current machine.

I'm also one of those who will likely part with $7K (or more) sometime in the next year or two for a new Atmos-enabled SSP.
Atmos doesn't really excite me because ceiling speakers really won't work in my room and the alternative solution of either replacing my main speakers with speakers that have a top firing component or getting the add-ons that sit on top of existing speakers are not options that I would consider viable after ordering Focal 1038 Be's in a custom finish less than a year ago. For those of us with 5.1/5.2 or 7.1/7.2 speaker configurations, Atmos won't do anything.
gsr is offline  
post #26227 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 06:27 PM
Senior Member
 
grassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
In the case of Atmos, i think sometimes less means more. Is it going to make a great deal of difference?. I think from memory the ceiling speaker thing was knocking around when laser discs(ac3)came out all those years ago and it really never took off. My way of thinking at the moment is Atmos is just an additive. I am now experiencing the best home theater sound i have ever listened to. I would buy an Audyssey pro kit before i would consider Atmos.

Fame is a mask that eats into the face.


Last edited by grassy; 07-02-2014 at 09:16 PM.
grassy is offline  
post #26228 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 07:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sam S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by robgarcia View Post
Well i am a proud new owner of a A1HDCI with the x32 3d upgrade, it arrives next week.
can not wait to get it. still looking for the matching amp no luck yet, got a question any other mods you can do to it to make the unit better ?
and do you think denon will offer another upgrade for Atmos.
Welcome! Purchased second-hand, I presume? Dunno much about mods, most around here run it stock.

I feel confident that there will be no more updates (esp. Atmos) to the AVP. Best scenario, we get the DD+ fix which causes audio garble from the center channel, typically on Netflix.
Sam S is offline  
post #26229 of 26445 Old 07-02-2014, 09:13 PM
Member
 
robgarcia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 49
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post
Welcome! Purchased second-hand, I presume? Dunno much about mods, most around here run it stock.

I feel confident that there will be no more updates (esp. Atmos) to the AVP. Best scenario, we get the DD+ fix which causes audio garble from the center channel, typically on Netflix.
i bought it from a person who had 2 of them and never got around to hooking the other up so i guess in reality
it is new.
robgarcia is offline  
post #26230 of 26445 Old 07-03-2014, 03:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by robgarcia View Post
i bought it from a person who had 2 of them and never got around to hooking the other up so i guess in reality
it is new.
Sweet, nice score. Congrats!

Enjoy the awesome units. Also please check out a lot of the great collected knowledge on the Wiki linked in m sig. Lots of helpful setup tips there.
JonFo is offline  
post #26231 of 26445 Old 07-03-2014, 03:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Atmos is a lot more than just '3D audio for 3D movies' it is the embodiment of something that I have been anticipating for years.

Here's something I wrote back in 2009 about object based audio as part of my predections about what we'd see in the future:

True vector-encoded surround formats

This is something that has been desired for a long time, and certain attempts have been made in the past (Ambisonics being a notable one I admire). But whatever the tech, a new formalized format for encoding a full 3D acoustic space that is totally abstracted from the speaker configuration will arrive and be adopted.

Vector encoding is critical to truly preserving the spatial positioning intent of the artist/producer. Much like a vector encoded image can reproduce well at low resolution or at 10x the resolution (say when printing). Such as the difference between an Illustrator image vs. a bitmap image. Scaling of the bitmap can be done, but looks ragged and blocky as you increase magnification 10x, but an illustrator rendering is perfect at any selected output size.

In contrast to the current discreet mess of 2, 6, 8 or more channels, vector encoded audio will finally split the responsibilities where they belong: Spatial positioning in the artists hands and adaptive, environment and equipment specific rendering in the hands of the consumer.

Imaging and resolution of placement is now controlled by the playback system and its dynamic configuration.

This paradigm is adaptable to binaural (headphones), 2ch or multi-speaker arrays.

Get ready to see systems with dozens, even hundreds of uniquely addressable sound reproduction emitters. Mine will definitely be one of those

Since a vector encoded sound source could be more compact than a high-rez multichannel, expect to see delivery via all channels, even network. Platforms such as BluRay, that support extensible Audio container formats will likely be one of the first to provide this in a physical media.


The benefits of having your processor correctly map audio based on your actual gear and speaker locations will give you incredibly accurate soundstages. We will look back on todays era of mis-matched speaker locations and all that and wonder how we put up with the mess.
So even if you never add height speakers, the rest of the 5.1 or 7.1 reproduction will benefit. And on units that do full remapping, even legacy recordings will benefit.

Personally, I can't wait for Steve Wilson to release a new album in Atmos so I can hear what a true musical genius can do with a full 3D soundscape to paint on.

Last edited by JonFo; 07-03-2014 at 03:52 AM.
JonFo is offline  
post #26232 of 26445 Old 07-03-2014, 04:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
... Currently I also don't think that the development has reached a stable phase. There are still many developments and upcoming new standards and functions like HDMI 2.0, DTS UHD or MDA, may be new Blu-Ray standards in the next time.

I mean, where will us lead all this? I buy a new Atmos enabled AVR and in the next year it is outdated, because there is DTS UHD
Oh, no doubt we are just at the cusp of this new tech and there will be growing pains. Anyone not prepared to essentially be a beta tester better sit out the first round of gear and buy whatever is out in 2016.

But the benefits it can deliver are sure worth jumping on the bandwagon early for me. My only requirements are that the box have HDMI 2.0 in/out with HDCP 2.2 support, along with some acknowledgment that the vendor will do a firmware update for additional positional audio codecs like DTS UHD.

That's why I'm considering stepping up to the major leagues with the Trinnov unit, as it has the horsepower and expandability to meet my needs for a while.

I believe D&M will follow the usual path:
Release AVR's and lower end pre-pro's with 'just the basics' necessary to support the new format
A year later, updated AVR's and maybe a higher end pre-pro with more DSP horsepower and features
and two years from now, possibly an AVP-class statement piece.

So by the time an AVP replacement is released, the tech and standards will have settled down, they will have two full years of field experience with the lower end stuff.

I mean, the hard engineering was already done for the AVP, it's still sitting there in the form of SoTA analog elements and chassis, it's just the digital audio and video boards that need updating (as well the control UI and processor).
I'd just create an add-on chassis to expand the base AVP from 12 channels to 24 or 32. That would allow covering the spectrum from people wanting a 7.1.4 setup on the basic unit, and with the expansion box, accommodate the crazies like me who will use up 24 channels using biamped L/C/R, multiple subs and a four-speaker ceiling array.
JonFo is offline  
post #26233 of 26445 Old 07-04-2014, 05:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ganymed4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
Oh, no doubt we are just at the cusp of this new tech and there will be growing pains. Anyone not prepared to essentially be a beta tester better sit out the first round of gear and buy whatever is out in 2016.

But the benefits it can deliver are sure worth jumping on the bandwagon early for me. My only requirements are that the box have HDMI 2.0 in/out with HDCP 2.2 support, along with some acknowledgment that the vendor will do a firmware update for additional positional audio codecs like DTS UHD.

That's why I'm considering stepping up to the major leagues with the Trinnov unit, as it has the horsepower and expandability to meet my needs for a while.

I believe D&M will follow the usual path:
Release AVR's and lower end pre-pro's with 'just the basics' necessary to support the new format
A year later, updated AVR's and maybe a higher end pre-pro with more DSP horsepower and features
and two years from now, possibly an AVP-class statement piece.

So by the time an AVP replacement is released, the tech and standards will have settled down, they will have two full years of field experience with the lower end stuff.

I mean, the hard engineering was already done for the AVP, it's still sitting there in the form of SoTA analog elements and chassis, it's just the digital audio and video boards that need updating (as well the control UI and processor).
I'd just create an add-on chassis to expand the base AVP from 12 channels to 24 or 32. That would allow covering the spectrum from people wanting a 7.1.4 setup on the basic unit, and with the expansion box, accommodate the crazies like me who will use up 24 channels using biamped L/C/R, multiple subs and a four-speaker ceiling array.
Yes, this is an interesting point of view. I was also interested in Trinnov but jumped back when I read the price tag...

What you were writing about the object oriented approach is also true - in theory. It is hard for me to try to imagine to see or better hear the difference between the channel based and the object oriented approach, if talking about a 5.1 or 7.1 system? In a 5.1.4 setup I can imagine there is a difference, however, the object oriented approach can only 'pan' the signal on the speakers. This is absolutely the same as with a channel based approach. An object oriented approach can't beat the physics. A loudspeaker is a loudspeaker, it has a location in the room and emits sound waves.
Well, it's a lot of guessing and some how not worth to spent too much time on it. I think I have to hear it, when the first disks will be out and then I can say something.

Yeah, AVRs and always some new developments. I would be in favor of buying software and keep the hardware or be able to replace some parts of it, like HDMI board or processing. This would be very nice. Hope we will see one day a unit like this and not only one update in case of Denon and then EOL. I mean it is a very good thing, that there was an upgrade at all. I would be willing to pay $ 1000 + to enhance an existing system with the latest technologies instead of dumping an old one and buy a new one. I agree to your last paragraph, this would be great, but nobody is offering something like this...
Ganymed4 is offline  
post #26234 of 26445 Old 07-04-2014, 06:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
I mean, the hard engineering was already done for the AVP, it's still sitting there in the form of SoTA analog elements and chassis, it's just the digital audio and video boards that need updating (as well the control UI and processor).
I'd just create an add-on chassis to expand the base AVP from 12 channels to 24 or 32. That would allow covering the spectrum from people wanting a 7.1.4 setup on the basic unit, and with the expansion box, accommodate the crazies like me who will use up 24 channels using biamped L/C/R, multiple subs and a four-speaker ceiling array.
Agreed D&M will play this as a plaform game, Its never designed for one unit but for a range. The first (as you noted) lowend try will use 4 DSP's and will be limited (but not as limited as the onkyo) as a result. They will learn and then make the new platform like they did with the prev. generations. I do hope they will indeed either in the spec or denon figure out how to both decode and transport pairs of signals to external boxes. So you can add say 8 channel boxes over a wire and that way extend both the channels and the needed dsp power if not i don't see how we ever allow more than 16 channels in a acceptable way.

I am still reading but as far as i can see they didn't design the concept distributed so we have to wonder if this is possible and still allow pre and post processing like THX modes or Audyssey.

Daniel.

PS: i also can't see denon doing another update for the AVP would be amazing but pushing it can't see the commercial value so if they do its more a 'high-5' to the current owners to create brand loyalty for us to wait 5 more years until the 'DeathStar 2.0' is done.

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
post #26235 of 26445 Old 07-04-2014, 09:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
...
What you were writing about the object oriented approach is also true - in theory. It is hard for me to try to imagine to see or better hear the difference between the channel based and the object oriented approach, if talking about a 5.1 or 7.1 system? In a 5.1.4 setup I can imagine there is a difference, however, the object oriented approach can only 'pan' the signal on the speakers. This is absolutely the same as with a channel based approach. An object oriented approach can't beat the physics. A loudspeaker is a loudspeaker, it has a location in the room and emits sound waves.
Well, it's a lot of guessing and some how not worth to spent too much time on it. I think I have to hear it, when the first disks will be out and then I can say something. ...
Oh, Object based is much better all around, it does not matter if your system is 2.1, 3 across the front or typical 5.1, using object driven location to render to what you actually have deployed results in you hearing as accurate a rendition of the mix.

Channel-based depends on your system being set up exactly to spec and even then, the heigh, distance and so many other factors are unknown, so you at best get an approximation of the mix.

With a a fully object-based system, the rendering device (the PrePro) will know exactly how many speakers there are, their heights and their distance, they even can characterize the room and factor that in as well. All of that allows them to render a sound to emanate from a spefic point in space as specified in the meta data.

I hope everyone gets to hear a good object rendering demo, it is uncanny how cool it can be, But the biggest benefit is constancy and scalability of rendering based on what is available for reproduction.
JonFo is offline  
post #26236 of 26445 Old 07-04-2014, 09:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JonFo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Big Canoe, GA, USA
Posts: 1,351
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post
... I do hope they will indeed either in the spec or denon figure out how to both decode and transport pairs of signals to external boxes. So you can add say 8 channel boxes over a wire and that way extend both the channels and the needed dsp power if not i don't see how we ever allow more than 16 channels in a acceptable way. ...
Daniel, the tech is already here for simple transport of a large number of digital signals between two boxes, it's called MADI.

If going that route, one could envision an architecture where the the main 'processor' is just that, a bunch of DSP's and a control CPU that manages the input selection, codecs and the DRC and all that, and who's main downstream output is MADI coax connection.

Then a series of different sized boxes that contain the D/A, stepped attenuators and analog output that link up to the processor via MADI (for the 64 channels of audio) and via network for other control functions.

I'm actually contemplating the option to do exactly that, as it turns out that a Trinnov MC-MADI is the main processor, and a RME M-32 DA (32 channel DA) are pretty much what I described above.

The Trinnov Altitude32 is all of that in one box + some additional AV functions.
JonFo is offline  
post #26237 of 26445 Old 07-04-2014, 01:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ganymed4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
Oh, Object based is much better all around, it does not matter if your system is 2.1, 3 across the front or typical 5.1, using object driven location to render to what you actually have deployed results in you hearing as accurate a rendition of the mix.

Channel-based depends on your system being set up exactly to spec and even then, the heigh, distance and so many other factors are unknown, so you at best get an approximation of the mix.

With a a fully object-based system, the rendering device (the PrePro) will know exactly how many speakers there are, their heights and their distance, they even can characterize the room and factor that in as well. All of that allows them to render a sound to emanate from a spefic point in space as specified in the meta data.

I hope everyone gets to hear a good object rendering demo, it is uncanny how cool it can be, But the biggest benefit is constancy and scalability of rendering based on what is available for reproduction.
Thank you for your explanation. Looking forward to this demo.
Ganymed4 is offline  
post #26238 of 26445 Old 07-05-2014, 02:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
Daniel, the tech is already here for simple transport of a large number of digital signals between two boxes, it's called MADI.

If going that route, one could envision an architecture where the the main 'processor' is just that, a bunch of DSP's and a control CPU that manages the input selection, codecs and the DRC and all that, and who's main downstream output is MADI coax connection.

Then a series of different sized boxes that contain the D/A, stepped attenuators and analog output that link up to the processor via MADI (for the 64 channels of audio) and via network for other control functions.

I'm actually contemplating the option to do exactly that, as it turns out that a Trinnov MC-MADI is the main processor, and a RME M-32 DA (32 channel DA) are pretty much what I described above.

The Trinnov Altitude32 is all of that in one box + some additional AV functions.
I hear what you are saying and i agree this is probably the best compromize to have one core cpu (with plugin dsp boards) and distribute the results to the external boxes. What i want would be a amazing feet of engineering i guess. Still would be nice if somehow they in the standard think about it more or create a clear path forward that is the same for everybody. Maybe MADI is the best we can expect. I think the distributed decoding and processing would be to hard if the object model could be done this way to begin with probably extra processing like audyssey would kill it.

Daniel.

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
post #26239 of 26445 Old 07-06-2014, 06:39 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ganymed4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
Daniel, the tech is already here for simple transport of a large number of digital signals between two boxes, it's called MADI.

If going that route, one could envision an architecture where the the main 'processor' is just that, a bunch of DSP's and a control CPU that manages the input selection, codecs and the DRC and all that, and who's main downstream output is MADI coax connection.

Then a series of different sized boxes that contain the D/A, stepped attenuators and analog output that link up to the processor via MADI (for the 64 channels of audio) and via network for other control functions.

I'm actually contemplating the option to do exactly that, as it turns out that a Trinnov MC-MADI is the main processor, and a RME M-32 DA (32 channel DA) are pretty much what I described above.

The Trinnov Altitude32 is all of that in one box + some additional AV functions.
This sounds really interesting for me. Excellent proposal as far as I can judge this. However, do you really believe that mainstream AVR makers will go this way?

Your proposal goes into the direction of the DATASAT or as you wrote Trinnov - wasn't aware that Trinnov devices are this versatile? - plus some more, as you described it. Even this is a feasible way and you can nearly build this with the equipment available of today, I have my strong doubts that we will see such approach coming form the established AVR makers in the near future.
My feeling is, they stick to their fully integrated and closed boxes. I mean, when Onkyo announced their Dolby ATMOS capable AVRs and pre/pro, I was a bit disappointed to see the same boxes, they have out for years now, just with some additional outputs. I hope D&M will do some more, but maybe we have to wait for the next or over next generation and they just want bring out new AVRs with the latest features as quick as possible? A complete redesign will surely take some time.
But I like your 'architectural proposal' a lot. I would buy such a box and you gave me some ideas. Thank you.
Ganymed4 is offline  
post #26240 of 26445 Old 07-06-2014, 06:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
butsu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,661
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
As an owner of AVP/POA I wonder how nice Datasat rs 20i is [in term of sound quality] when compared to AVP without 3D kit upgrade.Anyone has a chance to listen or own them both please share your thought.Thank in advance.
butsu is offline  
post #26241 of 26445 Old 07-07-2014, 05:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ganymed4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 641
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by butsu View Post
As an owner of AVP/POA I wonder how nice Datasat rs 20i is [in term of sound quality] when compared to AVP without 3D kit upgrade.Anyone has a chance to listen or own them both please share your thought.Thank in advance.
I don't own the Datasat but there are threads here about Datasat and also Trinnov e.g. this Datasat RS20i BETA test and comparison with ADA Rhapsody/Trinnov TEQ-12!!!!

The Denon and the Datasat use very different approaches. After reading the description of the Datasat, it seems to be more a computer with I/O cards and may be many DSPs inside. Also Trinnov goes this way - computer base and I/O cards. Denon is more audiophile and built in a more traditional way. But may be, this way is over? It is somehow obvious for me, that manufacturers are going the computer way. I am sure that 'rendering' sound signals for ATMOS will need lots of computational power. It sounds logical for me, that you take a PC base, use a powerful multipurpose processor and put some very good I/O cards into it. You have a bus inside and can connect many different inputs and outputs and you have the computational power to do many things. Even replace DSPs, which are difficult to program. I heard years ago talks during conferences mentioning to replace DSPs with processors - this was related to video.
However, such a box is not exactly what I imagine, thinking of audiophile equipment. But may be I have to change my mind. It is more software today, rather than sophisticated hardware. The Datasat is one example for me of this new direction. But pricey...
Ganymed4 is offline  
post #26242 of 26445 Old 07-09-2014, 10:46 PM
Senior Member
 
grassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Since owning the POA my Home Theater experience has reached a whole new level. Its really amazing coming from my previous set up to having partnered my AVP with this amp and in all due honesty i have been jumping out of my skin listening to some recent movies which the POA has boosted to a new level of sound. Its amazing that when lightning cracks, or the like you can really feel it, as i am getting a real buzz from my Home Theater now which i had not had previously and even the wife and kids are amazed at the power that is coming across in my movies now. I think the great thing is, is that my room is big enough to turn it up a little and its bringing out that sound that lacks in a small room as i can use the amp and the AVP to its full potential in a cinema environment. I am really amazed at the power that the POA has bought to the table and really think that this duo was made for home theater more so than stereo listening. I noticed my AVP has another Firmware update available (3min) and does anyone know what this last update was for?.

Fame is a mask that eats into the face.

grassy is offline  
post #26243 of 26445 Old 07-10-2014, 12:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post
Since owning the POA my Home Theater experience has reached a whole new level. Its really amazing coming from my previous set up to having partnered my AVP with this amp and in all due honesty i have been jumping out of my skin listening to some recent movies which the POA has boosted to a new level of sound. Its amazing that when lightning cracks, or the like you can really feel it, as i am getting a real buzz from my Home Theater now which i had not had previously and even the wife and kids are amazed at the power that is coming across in my movies now. I think the great thing is, is that my room is big enough to turn it up a little and its bringing out that sound that lacks in a small room as i can use the amp and the AVP to its full potential in a cinema environment. I am really amazed at the power that the POA has bought to the table and really think that this duo was made for home theater more so than stereo listening. I noticed my AVP has another Firmware update available (3min) and does anyone know what this last update was for?.
Glad you like the added POA, i forgot what amp(s) you had before. The problem with the POA's is they didn't have the same value/$$ as clearly the AVP had for people who know how not to fall into the brand trap. Its a solid amp but for the price they asked many more solid amps could be found in the 2008-2012 timeframe. What is a pity if you ask me that nobody continued the idea about giving the processor active control over the amps and allowing the 10 channels to be used in so many ways. I remember denon talking about also releasing new firmware for the POA's to allow things like voltage tracking and temp monitoring pity that never happened.

Daniel.

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
post #26244 of 26445 Old 07-10-2014, 02:30 AM
Senior Member
 
grassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post
Glad you like the added POA, i forgot what amp(s) you had before. The problem with the POA's is they didn't have the same value/$$ as clearly the AVP had for people who know how not to fall into the brand trap. Its a solid amp but for the price they asked many more solid amps could be found in the 2008-2012 timeframe. What is a pity if you ask me that nobody continued the idea about giving the processor active control over the amps and allowing the 10 channels to be used in so many ways. I remember denon talking about also releasing new firmware for the POA's to allow things like voltage tracking and temp monitoring pity that never happened.

Daniel.
Hi Daniel, i used to use an intergrated vsxax10aig pioneer receiver and use the 7.1 multichannel inputs on the back connected to my AVP. It was rated at around 170 watts per channel x 7 and although it had some punch, it was no where close to the punch of the POA. So basically although the pioneer was capable the POA took it to a level which it was meant to be used as. I never really understood the difference it could make until owning and using the POA. I found out here in Australia, that a 7 channel amp based around $6,000 Australian dollars was very hard to find that wasn't a tin box basically. There was the Elektra Theatron which was an option and a very good amp at around $3,500.00 and the Yamaha 11 channel(but was a tin box ) but had no weight to it. It came down to the Elektra or the POA and i only went for the POA because i got it at a great price and plus it was a matching amp for the AVP and the weight impressed me also. But i am really happy with this purchase and was looked after by a great forum member here in Australia and the chances of getting another POA deal like this is that slim its almost impossible and infact i consider myself really lucky as i paid half price for it and the blue plastic was still on the face plate and had never been taken off. This guy looked after it with white gloves I could not believe my luck.

Fame is a mask that eats into the face.

grassy is offline  
post #26245 of 26445 Old 07-10-2014, 04:16 AM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,565
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post
Hi Daniel, i used to use an intergrated vsxax10aig pioneer receiver and use the 7.1 multichannel inputs on the back connected to my AVP. It was rated at around 170 watts per channel x 7 and although it had some punch, it was no where close to the punch of the POA. So basically although the pioneer was capable the POA took it to a level which it was meant to be used as. I never really understood the difference it could make until owning and using the POA.
Using a receiver as your power amp and then replacing it with pretty much any competent separate power amp probably should have resulted in the sort of differences you're experiencing. In your previous configuration, you were subjecting the audio to a 2nd preamp stage and volume control before the audio made it to the amps and the amps in receivers usually aren't in the same league as a quality separate amp. This isn't to say that the POA isn't an excellent amp, because it is. Congrats on your upgrade, as you're now hearing the AVP as it should be heard.
gsr is offline  
post #26246 of 26445 Old 07-10-2014, 04:46 AM
Senior Member
 
grassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Using a receiver as your power amp and then replacing it with pretty much any competent separate power amp probably should have resulted in the sort of differences you're experiencing. In your previous configuration, you were subjecting the audio to a 2nd preamp stage and volume control before the audio made it to the amps and the amps in receivers usually aren't in the same league as a quality separate amp. This isn't to say that the POA isn't an excellent amp, because it is. Congrats on your upgrade, as you're now hearing the AVP as it should be heard.
Thanks gsr, as i never really understood the way my Receiver was being used that way. So what you are saying is that even though i was using my AVP as my processor my pioneer was still processing my sound to a degree. Is that right?

Fame is a mask that eats into the face.

grassy is offline  
post #26247 of 26445 Old 07-10-2014, 05:24 AM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,565
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Liked: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post
Thanks gsr, as i never really understood the way my Receiver was being used that way. So what you are saying is that even though i was using my AVP as my processor my pioneer was still processing my sound to a degree. Is that right?
Yeah, the sound was going through 2 preamp stages - the one in the AVP and the one in your receiver. So the sound was ultimately limited by how good your receiver was and somewhat compromised by going through that extra preamp stage. Sending it through a state of the art high end standalone preamp without home theater bypass would still be less than optimal, but doing the same with a receiver is a lot less than optimal.
gsr is offline  
post #26248 of 26445 Old 07-10-2014, 05:00 PM
Advanced Member
 
DoctorO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 740
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 16
POA pretty much dead

So I tried to make use of the suggestions here a couple of weeks ago--unplug for awhile if brownout issue, increase ventilation, try different sources. The POA continues to go into protection mode on occasions--actually did okay for a week, now back to blinking red light and power down. Have visually check all connections for shorts=none. Tonight it went into red mode just shortly after being turned on, so it does not seem to be a heat issue.

Any other ideas? Is there a way to reset the POA's processor? I am seriously thinking about burying it on the hill, unless anyone knows of someone in the midatlantic or midwest area who could actually fix it...waiting months and months for the failed AVP upgrade to be corrected leaves me not very optimistic...
DoctorO is offline  
post #26249 of 26445 Old 07-10-2014, 06:47 PM
Member
 
robgarcia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 49
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks everyone for the kind replies
I got it in the mail today and hooked it up. i did not hook it to a amp just brought up the menu system then went to surround modes
did not see any of the new sound formats except DTS- Neo X in the list. i was wondering if i need to do something to get them all to show up in the list. or is it possible the sound formats are not present due to it not being updated right ? i have the update disc.
maybe i am not looking in right place. i am a dumb dumb newbie to this pre pro. any help would be appreciated.
robgarcia is offline  
post #26250 of 26445 Old 07-10-2014, 07:19 PM
Senior Member
 
grassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorO View Post
So I tried to make use of the suggestions here a couple of weeks ago--unplug for awhile if brownout issue, increase ventilation, try different sources. The POA continues to go into protection mode on occasions--actually did okay for a week, now back to blinking red light and power down. Have visually check all connections for shorts=none. Tonight it went into red mode just shortly after being turned on, so it does not seem to be a heat issue.

Any other ideas? Is there a way to reset the POA's processor? I am seriously thinking about burying it on the hill, unless anyone knows of someone in the midatlantic or midwest area who could actually fix it...waiting months and months for the failed AVP upgrade to be corrected leaves me not very optimistic...
Whats it like if you leave it on for a while with nothing plugged into it does it shut down on its own then.I would try a different power chord if you havnt yet and see if that changes anything.

Fame is a mask that eats into the face.


Last edited by grassy; 07-10-2014 at 07:31 PM.
grassy is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Denon Avp A1hdci Ultra Reference A V Network Streaming Preamplifier , Denon , Component Preamplifiers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off