Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 884 - AVS Forum
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post #26491 of 26497 Unread 12-25-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Better usage of space on the AVR/Pre-pro back could be done with these......frees up layout space and simplifies connections.

http://www.proaudiola.com/product-p/...Fe7m7AodMS8A8A
and lots of length to choose from, depending on where you place your separate amps
Thank you for reminding me of this type of connector. I remember that I saw it on the DATASAT and also other equipment. It saves space for sure, but I am not sure, what I shall think about it in the direction of electrical separation and interference? Maybe OK, but the connectors are relatively close together, however, this is balanced and should therefore be no problem.

In the sense of a new top of the line unit, I agree to Jonathan's thoughts. Modular or even PC based would be the way to go. Where I see the AD section as one important thing in hardware - at least of today and the rest in software, not on dedicated FPGAs or DSPs, on multipurpose processors. This would be really a paradigm change for the manufacturers and I doubt, they see it this way. However, I think this is the way everything will go. I don't know the DATASAT from the inside but I think this is also a computer, basically.

Just my two cents...
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post #26492 of 26497 Unread Yesterday, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
... I don't know the DATASAT from the inside but I think this is also a computer, basically.
Correct, the Datasat and especially the Trinnov Altitude32 are basically PCs with customized Linux deployments that make them dedicated (and optimized) to their functions.

The more I think about the Altitude32, the more I like it. Just need to decide which car to sell first so I can afford it ;-)
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post #26493 of 26497 Unread Yesterday, 12:15 PM
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Correct, the Datasat and especially the Trinnov Altitude32 are basically PCs with customized Linux deployments that make them dedicated (and optimized) to their functions.

The more I think about the Altitude32, the more I like it. Just need to decide which car to sell first so I can afford it ;-)
Thank you for confirming my guess. Well, there must be software worth a car inside this PC.

A Linux PC with some standard hardware and some refinements is worth 2000 US$ in the best case. If Trinnov and Datasat are the best pieces of pre/pro equipment today and are much more expensive then the AVP then everything today is only about computing power, isn't it. But this is in fact inexpensive compared to something as the AVP, made of beautiful and heavy materials, engineered with lots of knowledge. I mean software is relatively easy to make. Sure, you need also a lot of knowledge especially for the audio side, but many things already exist. Decoders for all kind of material is already software and you can just buy it and use it in your own program code.

I am also sure that they needed years of development but still I have a bad feeling about DSPs in general. I can hear a sound improvement with my AVP when I switch off the DSPs and listen in 'pure direct' mode - at least for stereo sources. And now, the inventor of Auro 3D was asked in an interview, what do you think about the bad influence of DSPs on the sound and he answers: This is no problem.

You can find the answers on this question starting from minute 48 in this video http://www.areadvd.de/tests/special-...xpo-in-denver/

The interviewer speaks German but the interviews are in English. This video is from CEDIA EXPO in Denver in 2014. This is part of a comparison of ATMOS and Auro 3D, made by Lars Mette from 'Hollywood at home' company. May be also interesting for some to listen what the representatives of Dolby and Auro 3D say about their products.

There is also shown in the video, how DSPs are influencing a rectangle test tone, shown on an oscilloscope.

Well, I am having some headache, thinking about the reproduction of high end sound via a Linux PC and especially paying the amount of money for a middle class car for this PC... But, let's see...
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post #26494 of 26497 Unread Yesterday, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Thank you for confirming my guess. Well, there must be software worth a car inside this PC.

A Linux PC with some standard hardware and some refinements is worth 2000 US$ in the best case. If Trinnov and Datasat are the best pieces of pre/pro equipment today and are much more expensive then the AVP then everything today is only about computing power, isn't it. But this is in fact inexpensive compared to something as the AVP, made of beautiful and heavy materials, engineered with lots of knowledge.
Have you looked at the pictures of the rear panel of the Trinnov? There's clearly a regular motherboard in there, but everything else is clearly custom boards. So it's not just a standard PC with some minor refinements and a bunch of software added.

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I mean software is relatively easy to make. Sure, you need also a lot of knowledge especially for the audio side, but many things already exist. Decoders for all kind of material is already software and you can just buy it and use it in your own program code.
As a software developer, I'd beg to differ with what you're saying here. The type of software needed for a surround sound processor most definitely isn't trivial to write and I doubt they're just grabbing a bunch of public domain code and throwing it in there. Writing code for FPGA's is probably somewhat more difficult in some respects, but the algorithms used are going to be pretty similar either way.
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post #26495 of 26497 Unread Today, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Have you looked at the pictures of the rear panel of the Trinnov? There's clearly a regular motherboard in there, but everything else is clearly custom boards. So it's not just a standard PC with some minor refinements and a bunch of software added.
Surely, that's how I would also build such a thing. It is also my understanding how to do this. However, in contrary to an AVR which you design from scratch - which the AVP was - here you already have a solid base - Linux and PC - you build your pre/pro onto.
This does not justify the price they are asking for in my understanding.

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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
As a software developer, I'd beg to differ with what you're saying here. The type of software needed for a surround sound processor most definitely isn't trivial to write and I doubt they're just grabbing a bunch of public domain code and throwing it in there. Writing code for FPGA's is probably somewhat more difficult in some respects, but the algorithms used are going to be pretty similar either way.
I also agree to your point of view. Writing code for audio and especially surround applications is not this easy and you have to take into account the completely different environment you are working in, compared to writing e.g. a database application. However, in case of Trinnov, they already had this knowledge and also the experience from their former products. Compared to a product like the AVP, I find the prices for PC based products, where they can at least re-use parts of the already developed software, too expensive.
Especially because they can re-use the algorithms already developed and I strongly agree, to what you wrote, that they are nearly the same, if not at all.
This means in my understanding, that a lot of work can be transferred to new models and this does not justify these high prices. Or somebody, please explain to me, why the R20 or the Altitude cost so much money. Thank you.

I mean the AVP is EoL because they could only make it live longer by changing hardware, which was already done. This means to me, that the AVP is using dedicated hardware, which cannot be programmed, like e.g. a universal D/A board which can be enlarged, by putting in another D/A card to allow for more channels in a PC based environment.
This also means, that we, as the customers, have to buy every three to six years new hardware, depending on how fast we are following the new marketing promises from the AV industry. A completely PC based pre/pro would change this. And my feeling is, that we are seeing the beginning of this already. Can't you buy the Auro 3D upgrade in software for 150 US$?
I mean I agree to your point of view in principle and this is a very early stage of this development, however, I find these PC boxes currently way too expensive. But this will only change when a big player is coming and doing the same. And if this will ever happen, is questionable imo, because it will change the whole business plan.

But I would like to have a PC based pre/pro with add-on cards and software upgrades I would have to pay for. This would be OK for me and would also produce a constant income for the manufacturer.

Just my two cents...
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post #26496 of 26497 Unread Today, 07:16 AM
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After some of you talked about the Trinnov Altitude 32, I checked it out and yes, this is exactly what I was talking about. But quite expensive.
However, if you can keep it ten years or longer by applying and maybe moderate payment for software updates, it might be worth the price. The concept is good.

What will the 'mainstream' do next?
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post #26497 of 26497 Unread Today, 09:10 AM
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Even a PC based product isn't going to be future proof. Every several years, I find that my desktop and HTPC computers have fallen behind on the performance curve and need to have new motherboards, CPU's, RAM. and video cards installed to handle the processing requirements of larger image files from my latest camera, higher resolution video formats, and higher resolution audio CODECs. The same thing will apply to a PC based pre-pro. Notice that the rear panel of that Trinnov processor doesn't have any spare space to work with, so that means if even more channels are needed or connectors for new input types are needed, they'll need to do some major work to support it.

I agree that the prices of the Trinnov, Datasat, etc. pre-pros are "too high" right now. That's partly due to supply / demand as they clearly aren't expecting to sell millions of these products, which means they need to make their money by charging high prices, but IMO that really has little to do with whether the product is PC based on not.

It will be interesting to see what the future direction is, but thinking that a PC based product is a future proof design that will solve all the problems with the current paradigm probably isn't very realistic.

The whole point of Denon using FPGA's was that they are multipurpose processors rather than dedicated chipsets, but every processor has its limitations and will be replaced at some point with one that is even more capable no matter how forward thinking the product development team thought they were being when they designed the product.
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