Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 893 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26761 of 26769 Old 01-31-2016, 09:22 AM
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Regarding selling, now that prices are closer to $1K rather than $2K, I'll continue to use mine until the 4K formats dust settles and the second wave of 3D audio format support shows up with any bug fixes or enhancements.

Personally, here's what I'm waiting for before switching:
  • Full 4K UHD support in the HDMI subsystem
  • 10 HDMI inputs, including MHL on front
  • Full support of the most advanced features of all the 3D audio formats (Atmos, DTS:X, Auro 3D)
  • MQA certified DAC's and full MQA-compliant DRC (see: http://www.mqa.co.uk )
  • High-rez DRC, one of:
    • AudysseyXT32 (with 24/96 minimum internal processing, not 24/48 like today)
    • Dirac Live with Unison feature (my ideal)
    • Trinnov with re-mapping and full x-over support (16 output channels minimum)
  • High-rez DLNA Renderer
    • Multichannel FLAC support
    • Minimum support for 24/96 streams, ideally up to 192 sample rates
    • Responsive to network API's (most of the time, the UI is a DLNA remote on a Smartphone/Tablet)
    • Responsive local UI
  • Streaming support
    • Tidal with MQA
    • Any other streaming service that supports MQA
  • Minimum 16 channels of Balanced out XLR's
  • A plus would be 16 or more channels of AES EBU on DB25 outputs
  • Setup and DRC support up to 4 subs, with full delay and pre-DRC adjustments (ideally something like Harmans SFM)
  • A truly user-friendly and complete smartphone/tablet control app
  • Modern RESTfull WebServices API for automation integration
  • Priced under $10K

Today, a Trinnov Altitude32 would get me mostly there on the audio side, but at 2.5X the cost, and is missing plenty of the items in the wish list.

What other items would you want to see before switching?

Last edited by JonFo; 01-31-2016 at 09:26 AM.
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post #26762 of 26769 Old 01-31-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MoFoHo View Post
Thanks for the detailed reply :-)

The subwoofer is a BK Electronics Monolith DF +.

The issue we have is overblown bass, as I said. With the GS10s it wasn't so bad, as there was no redirected bass. Since swapping these out for the GSFXs however, the crossover is set at 100hz. As you no doubt know, a lot of lossless soundtracks can have a lot of lower end stuff sent to the rears. This redirected bass, sometimes combined with Dynamic EQ equals a nice boost to the rears' presence felt, but also a hefty boost in bass output anyway!

I just wondered if forcing the rears to small would redirect some bass back to those speakers, despite not really being capable of reproducing those particular frequencies to a satisfactory level (Audyssey wise).

Thanks for the detailed replies good people, it's really appreciated :-)
Sure, if you set your rears to small the subwoofer portion of the signal is not reproduced from the speakers any more. May be this helps. However, if you change something like this, I would recommend to make another Audyssey measurement after the change, esp. if you change speakers from large to small.
The difference between large and small is the reproduction of the LFE (sub-woofer) signal from large speakers. I am using Audyssey Pro with my AVP and Audyssey shows me the result of the first measurement of the speakers and often show me the front speakers as Large. But I have a THX speaker set and there are things a bit different. I always set the crossover frequency to 80 Hz, which is the defined x-over frequency for THX speakers.
My recommendation would be that if you are using a sub-woofer, set all speakers to small and a x-over between 60 to 100 Hz. You can try the different frequencies, I would recommend 20 Hz steps. I've also tried this before and for my set-up 80 is best.
Good luck.
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post #26763 of 26769 Old 01-31-2016, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
Regarding selling, now that prices are closer to $1K rather than $2K, I'll continue to use mine until the 4K formats dust settles and the second wave of 3D audio format support shows up with any bug fixes or enhancements.

Personally, here's what I'm waiting for before switching:
  • Full 4K UHD support in the HDMI subsystem
  • 10 HDMI inputs, including MHL on front
  • Full support of the most advanced features of all the 3D audio formats (Atmos, DTS:X, Auro 3D)
  • MQA certified DAC's and full MQA-compliant DRC (see: http://www.mqa.co.uk )
  • High-rez DRC, one of:
    • AudysseyXT32 (with 24/96 minimum internal processing, not 24/48 like today)
    • Dirac Live with Unison feature (my ideal)
    • Trinnov with re-mapping and full x-over support (16 output channels minimum)
  • High-rez DLNA Renderer
    • Multichannel FLAC support
    • Minimum support for 24/96 streams, ideally up to 192 sample rates
    • Responsive to network API's (most of the time, the UI is a DLNA remote on a Smartphone/Tablet)
    • Responsive local UI
  • Streaming support
    • Tidal with MQA
    • Any other streaming service that supports MQA
  • Minimum 16 channels of Balanced out XLR's
  • A plus would be 16 or more channels of AES EBU on DB25 outputs
  • Setup and DRC support up to 4 subs, with full delay and pre-DRC adjustments (ideally something like Harmans SFM)
  • A truly user-friendly and complete smartphone/tablet control app
  • Modern RESTfull WebServices API for automation integration
  • Priced under $10K

Today, a Trinnov Altitude32 would get me mostly there on the audio side, but at 2.5X the cost, and is missing plenty of the items in the wish list.

What other items would you want to see before switching?
I would say you mentioned mostly what I would also prefer. I would be, in some cases e.g. 16 output channels, even be less demanding. However, this is a real good list.

And you forgot to mention the Datasat.
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post #26764 of 26769 Old 01-31-2016, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post
Sure, if you set your rears to small the subwoofer portion of the signal is not reproduced from the speakers any more. May be this helps. However, if you change something like this, I would recommend to make another Audyssey measurement after the change, esp. if you change speakers from large to small.
The difference between large and small is the reproduction of the LFE (sub-woofer) signal from large speakers. I am using Audyssey Pro with my AVP and Audyssey shows me the result of the first measurement of the speakers and often show me the front speakers as Large. But I have a THX speaker set and there are things a bit different. I always set the crossover frequency to 80 Hz, which is the defined x-over frequency for THX speakers.
My recommendation would be that if you are using a sub-woofer, set all speakers to small and a x-over between 60 to 100 Hz. You can try the different frequencies, I would recommend 20 Hz steps. I've also tried this before and for my set-up 80 is best.
Good luck.
Many thanks for your reply. My system is very modest, but I will do some experimenting. I changed the GS10s to GSFXs as I've really gotten into multichannel music. The bipole (or dipole!) mode can really fill my room with sound, really nice! It's nice to be able to switch these rear speakers to 2 separate modes. Just a pity I cant use one of my amps 12v triggers to do the switching, as the operating parameters for these 12v triggers seems to simplistic.

Slightly off topic, but I also am in a quandary regarding an 'upgrade'. And a change of amp should be just that, an upgrade, for most people considering another top of the line amp, or pre/pro. Like has already been mentioned, my Denon AVC-A1HD is lacking many common place features now:

3D pass through (I didn't fancy the upgrade board,it was really expensive here in the UK, plus I'd already paid for DL4 in a previous update )
4K UHD support
Dolby Atmos (and DTS equivalent)
better network intergration
and so on.

However when I looked at the back panel of Denons current high end receiver, I saw lots of inputs/outputs missing. In short, as I've owned the A1HD over a number of years I've gotten very used to 2 things.

1. Its sublime sound quality and power output
2. Its flexibility (in relative terms, for its generation)

Nothing seems to come close, and I imagine (since your processors and my AVC-A1HD are indeed very similar) you are also struggling to come to the reasons for changing the unit.

Its one of the finest, most complex pieces of electrical equipment I've ever owned.
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post #26765 of 26769 Old 01-31-2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MoFoHo View Post
Many thanks for your reply. My system is very modest, but I will do some experimenting. I changed the GS10s to GSFXs as I've really gotten into multichannel music. The bipole (or dipole!) mode can really fill my room with sound, really nice! It's nice to be able to switch these rear speakers to 2 separate modes. Just a pity I cant use one of my amps 12v triggers to do the switching, as the operating parameters for these 12v triggers seems to simplistic.

Slightly off topic, but I also am in a quandary regarding an 'upgrade'. And a change of amp should be just that, an upgrade, for most people considering another top of the line amp, or pre/pro. Like has already been mentioned, my Denon AVC-A1HD is lacking many common place features now:

3D pass through (I didn't fancy the upgrade board,it was really expensive here in the UK, plus I'd already paid for DL4 in a previous update )
4K UHD support
Dolby Atmos (and DTS equivalent)
better network intergration
and so on.

However when I looked at the back panel of Denons current high end receiver, I saw lots of inputs/outputs missing. In short, as I've owned the A1HD over a number of years I've gotten very used to 2 things.

1. Its sublime sound quality and power output
2. Its flexibility (in relative terms, for its generation)

Nothing seems to come close, and I imagine (since your processors and my AVC-A1HD are indeed very similar) you are also struggling to come to the reasons for changing the unit.

Its one of the finest, most complex pieces of electrical equipment I've ever owned.
You are very welcome and I couldn't agree more especially to your last two sentences.

This makes it also quite difficult for me to change. I watched a long video tutorial - about two hours - from Lars Mette about the Datasat RS20i and this unit does things, which I can't use at least not now. He said in the tutorial that in the moment he started to use the active x-overs in the Datasat, this made a remarkable difference. Well, not surprising for me, because I come from the professional PA business and nobody is using passive x-overs there except for very small speakers or monitor speakers. But, boy, you need a lot of power-amps for this.If you use a three-way x-over you need three mono power-amps per speaker. You can just multiply the number of speakers you have by three, if your speakers support this at all. I assume the same applies for the Trinnov Altitude.
So, I decided, this is nothing for me, especially regarding the price tag.

I think, if I really want to have the new sound formats I will go into the Marantz or Yamaha pre/pro direction.

Markus

PS: I didn't post the link to this tutorial, because it is in German, without English sub-titles...
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post #26766 of 26769 Old Yesterday, 12:18 AM
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And that will only knock the resale value of our AVP's down even further, though they really can't go much lower at this point. They're still a great pre-pro, but we each need to decide when we've reached the point where new features such as 4K are the breaking point. I'm not there quite yet as I don't have any 4K sources (other than my HTPC being capable of it) and don't have a 4K display yet, but will sooner or later (I'm hoping to get enough additional life out of my current display to let the dust settle a bit more on things like the competing HDR formats before I take the plunge).
as a note 4k sources like the sammy uhd blu-ray player comes wiht twin hdmi outs, one to feed audio to the non 4K legacy AVR/AV processor, the other hdmi to feed video to 4K display projector.

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This is really sad. I just checked eBay in Germany and there are two offered for over Euro 3000. I guess the US market is already more on track in direction to 4k, Atmos and DTS:X. Only two 4k players are available now and honestly, I would have to replace my whole chain of beloved equipment starting from the Oppo, AVP and SIM2 D80, except the speakers and the power amps.
I am really not ready to do so now.
not everyone is....not everyone is buying into 4K or or that matter ready to make holes in their ceilings for object based audio height channels, replace their whole chain including adding more speakers and amps.

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post #26767 of 26769 Old Yesterday, 01:27 AM
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as a note 4k sources like the sammy uhd blu-ray player comes wiht twin hdmi outs, one to feed audio to the non 4K legacy AVR/AV processor, the other hdmi to feed video to 4K display projector.



not everyone is....not everyone is buying into 4K or or that matter ready to make holes in their ceilings for object based audio height channels, replace their whole chain including adding more speakers and amps.
Good points, Al. Thank you.
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post #26768 of 26769 Old Yesterday, 06:16 AM
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as a note 4k sources like the sammy uhd blu-ray player comes wiht twin hdmi outs, one to feed audio to the non 4K legacy AVR/AV processor, the other hdmi to feed video to 4K display projector.
Absolutely, but using this method means no OSD from the pre-pro when watching anything on the UHD Bluray player. Not the end of the world, but not the ultimate in convenience either. The other issue with this approach is what happens once the user starts to get multiple 4K sources (with 4K Roku's already available along with a few other 4K sources, that will be reality for people very soon)? It will get really inconvenient once you have several 4K sources and run out of inputs on the display. The bottom line is that the used value of our AVP's is not going to go back up at this point. Though I'm not sure the values will drop much further either.

Personally, I'm planning to sit on things for a while longer to let the dust settle a bit on things like the competing HDR formats, waiting for prices on large 4K displays to come down, and so on. But if my AVP were to fail tomorrow, I would probably replace it with a Marantz 8802A as that seems like the best option overall replacement option at the moment.
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post #26769 of 26769 Old Yesterday, 02:09 PM
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Absolutely, but using this method means no OSD from the pre-pro when watching anything on the UHD Bluray player. Not the end of the world, but not the ultimate in convenience either. The other issue with this approach is what happens once the user starts to get multiple 4K sources (with 4K Roku's already available along with a few other 4K sources, that will be reality for people very soon)? It will get really inconvenient once you have several 4K sources and run out of inputs on the display. The bottom line is that the used value of our AVP's is not going to go back up at this point. Though I'm not sure the values will drop much further either.

Personally, I'm planning to sit on things for a while longer to let the dust settle a bit on things like the competing HDR formats, waiting for prices on large 4K displays to come down, and so on. But if my AVP were to fail tomorrow, I would probably replace it with a Marantz 8802A as that seems like the best option overall replacement option at the moment.
we been there done that havent we with 3D before the avp got its 3D upgrade. things like switchers are easily done(can be easily integrated with universal remotes) and we didnt get osd with 3D either. people get by. just saying there are options and you dont HAVE to swap out for 4K its probably a smart move not to change out. plus am also making clear as have before a processor like the marantz for instance doesnt quite have the "balls" of the denon. I think what it is with the denon is dynamic range perhaps but it sure has some kapow and weight to its sound. still couple of years I reckon for its replacement whether a denon or marantz unit so if can hold out ....
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