Does your receiver pass HDMI video unmodified? - Page 17 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Should an A/V receiver pass all video levels (0-255) unmodified from an HDMI input?
Yes, I use below black and/or above white to calibrate my display. 0 0%
Yes, some of my input devices use full range RGB signals. 0 0%
Don't care, as long as I can see standard video levels (16-235). 1 100.00%
No, it's better if full range inputs are clipped to 16-235 in the receiver. 0 0%
Voters: 1. You may not vote on this poll

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post #481 of 504 Old 05-23-2009, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jschaffer View Post

I was actually in the process of taking pictures of the issue when in my desperation I got curious and swapped the HDMI cable out. Now it looks perfect even going through the receiver. Now I feel like a big dummy...

Wow, I've always been a "it's not the cable" follower. In my experience, it very rarely was, and I especially was irritated with all the claims made to sell overpriced cables. But I recently wasted a bunch of time on a failed Monster S-Video cable because I was sure "it couldn't be the cable". It was. And now you report a failed HDMI cable. I guess I'll start questioning cables sooner the next time I'm battling an A/V glitch.

BTW, in my case Monster came through and replaced my 15-year old cable, proving they have one advantage over cheaper brands. Although, they required me to ship them the old one at my expense. This was the only Monster cable I've ever owned (I was able to buy it really cheap) and also the only S-video cable I've ever had that failed.
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post #482 of 504 Old 07-14-2009, 11:30 AM
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I'm not sure if anyone's still interested in getting Yamaha to resolve the RGB 'clipping' problem on last years #63 range of amplifiers, but if you are, I've been speaking to Yamaha UK about it.

They've told me that they're happy to press Yamaha Japan for a firmware update. Now given that a UK and US firmware update are likely to be almost identical, it might be possible for us to collectively achieve the result we want.

I'm not entirely sure how to go about it, but I thought that if you guys in the US email both Yamaha US and Yamaha UK (copy the UK team in via info_av@gmx.yamaha.com) requesting a firmware update to resolve the problem and if we in the UK copy the US team in, it might add extra weight to the request. Certainly the Yamaha UK team seems happy to push for it and has said that the more emails they receive the more likely Yamaha Japan are to do something. I'm guessing US owners should still include Yamaha US in the email to avoid the "you need to contact Yamaha in your region" responses from the UK.

I know some people don't care about this problem, and I'm not here to knock Yamaha products, but hopefully if enough people contact Yamaha about the issue they'll do something about it.

I've started a thread over on the UK AVForums Here to track and update on progress.
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post #483 of 504 Old 07-14-2009, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McKinley View Post

I'm not sure if anyone's still interested in getting Yamaha to resolve the RGB 'clipping' problem on last years #63 range of amplifiers...

I'm always interested (although I own an 1800 that was fixed, and not one of the x63 models). One thing I've realized recently is that clipping above white can be even more important than below black. When you set brightness on a display you normally don't want to see anything below black, but when setting contrast you do want to leave room to display above white without clipping. For example, the following quote is from the Spears and Munsil article on setting contrast,
Very little of most video frames strays outside the reference range, but often the stuff that does stray outside the range makes a difference in the image. Most notably, when displaying bright saturated colors and/or highlights on bright white and near-white objects, one or more of the red, green, or blue channels may stray into the overshoot area. For this reason, professional video monitors are always calibrated such that they have room to display the above-reference range. Anyhow, good luck with the compaign to get it fixed for the x63s. Yamaha should realize that it would go a long way to restoring customer confidence that future bugs will get fixed on new models, it's not just about the clipping on the old models.
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post #484 of 504 Old 08-19-2009, 01:39 PM
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The review states and I can confirm that the STR-DA4300ES does not pass video below black or above white. :-(
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post #485 of 504 Old 08-19-2009, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobukcat View Post

The review states and I can confirm that the STR-DA4300ES does not pass video below black or above white. :-(

I reread the review I referenced in the first post, and it sounds like BTB was passed with an HDMI input but not with analog:

"Overall, the 4300ES's processing was phenomenal, but I stumbled upon a problem when converting analog signals to 1080p over HDMI. When sending 1080i or 720p signals via component to the AVR, the black levels didn't look right. To confirm my suspicions, I inserted the HD DVD of Digital Video Essentials and brought up the PLUGE pattern. Sure enough, something was amiss. With the projector's brightness control turned up above its proper setting, there should be three black bars visible, but there were none on the screen! I switched to the HDMI input and they reappeared."

It's a bit unclear though (especially when you read the next paragraph). Can you describe how you did the test and what kind of input you used? Was it HDMI? If so, did you confirm that your setup passes BTB when you connect the source directly to the display bypassing the 4300ES?
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post #486 of 504 Old 08-20-2009, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I reread the review I referenced in the first post, and it sounds like BTB was passed with an HDMI input but not with analog:

"Overall, the 4300ES's processing was phenomenal, but I stumbled upon a problem when converting analog signals to 1080p over HDMI. When sending 1080i or 720p signals via component to the AVR, the black levels didn't look right. To confirm my suspicions, I inserted the HD DVD of Digital Video Essentials and brought up the PLUGE pattern. Sure enough, something was amiss. With the projector's brightness control turned up above its proper setting, there should be three black bars visible, but there were none on the screen! I switched to the HDMI input and they reappeared."

It's a bit unclear though (especially when you read the next paragraph). Can you describe how you did the test and what kind of input you used? Was it HDMI? If so, did you confirm that your setup passes BTB when you connect the source directly to the display bypassing the 4300ES?

I originally did the test using HD DVE on my PS3 via HDMI to the AVR and then my 6020 Kuro panel. I then plugged the HDMI cable directly into the PS3 and it the below black bars were easily visable. I checked and changed every HDMI setting on both the panel and the AVR (the AVR is decidedly devoid of any HDMI video settings except resolution) and none of them make any difference. I've also tested it with a Panasonic BD-80 and the Oppo BD player - same results. Anyone want to buy a very slightly used 4300ES, I'll give ya' a good price! :-)
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post #487 of 504 Old 08-20-2009, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobukcat View Post

I originally did the test using HD DVE on my PS3 via HDMI to the AVR and then my 6020 Kuro panel. I then plugged the HDMI cable directly into the PS3 and it the below black bars were easily visable ... I've also tested it with a Panasonic BD-80 and the Oppo BD player - same results.

Sounds very convincing, but I still read the UltimateAVmag review the other way for HDMI input ("Since all HDMI signals are passed untouched by the Faroudja chipset, testing the video capabilities of the 4300ES was limited to component video only. " ... "With the projector's brightness control turned up above its proper setting, there should be three black bars visible, but there were none on the screen! I switched to the HDMI input and they reappeared.")

The STR-DA5300ES thread is not much help as it's full of conflicting reports! Your tests sound the most believable, but for now I've just taken the easy way out and removed all reference to these models in the first post.
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post #488 of 504 Old 02-02-2010, 11:46 AM
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I can confirm that the Sony DA3300ES does clip.

It clips BTB and WTW.

I tested this using the Spears and Munsil BD on my PS3 With RGB Limited and Super White ON.

I spent about an hour trying to get the brightness/contrast screen working before I pulled the Sony receiver out of the loop and went straight from the PS3 to the TV.

I can confirm that the Sony is clipping. With the Sony out of the loop I was easily able to calibrate brightness and contrast using the BTB and WTW signals.

Can anyone comment on the x400ES or x500ES models?

I have heard that the x400ES devices do clip.

Please let me know.

-Jeremy
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post #489 of 504 Old 03-08-2010, 08:55 AM
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I read through this thread as I was about to take advantage of a great price on the Yamaha RX-V863. It seems that if I'm only going to watch Blu-ray discs, standard DVDs and high def TV, then the BTB/WTW clipping is a non-issue. I do, however, understand the concern. I've already had my TV ISF calibrated with the signal going through a Denon receiver, so, as I understand it, the calibration should remain correct as I change the Denon to the Yamaha.
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post #490 of 504 Old 03-08-2010, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Spaulding View Post

BTB/WTW clipping is a non-issue [...] the calibration should remain correct as I change the Denon to the Yamaha.


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post #491 of 504 Old 03-08-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Spaulding View Post

I read through this thread as I was about to take advantage of a great price on the Yamaha RX-V863. It seems that if I'm only going to watch Blu-ray discs, standard DVDs and high def TV, then the BTB/WTW clipping is a non-issue. I do, however, understand the concern. I've already had my TV ISF calibrated with the signal going through a Denon receiver, so, as I understand it, the calibration should remain correct as I change the Denon to the Yamaha.

I didn't read through every single post in this thread so I don't know if this has been discussed, but for anybody calibrating uinsg HD TV signal, you will encounter a problem if you are a ATT U~Verse subscriber. The uverse boxes send out a clipped signal. As a result, dark scenes or progamming display crushed blacks. I am not sure if any other providers have a similar problem. So, if you run HDMI from your STB to your receiver, it will only be receiving the clipped signal so won't be able to output a nonclipped signal to your tv.
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post #492 of 504 Old 03-08-2010, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjgje View Post

The uverse boxes send out a clipped signal.

All HD boxes, cable boxes, satellite boxes, DVD players, BD players, etc., etc. output "clipped signals" (defined as Black=16 & White =235) over DVI/HDMI because

THAT IS THE VIDEO STANDARD!!

Quote:
As a result, dark scenes or progamming display crushed blacks.

If you are getting crushed blacks, etc., your display is not calibrated properly.

Note: If you use one DVI/HDMI device (such as a BD Player) to calibrate a DVI/HDMI input on your display using DVE, etc., that DVI/HDMI input is calibrated correctly for ALL video sources including your cable and sat boxes.

The only devices using non-clipped signals (by default) are PCs but they too can be calibrated to the video standard so that everything plays nicely together.

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post #493 of 504 Old 03-08-2010, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

All HD boxes, cable boxes, satellite boxes, DVD players, BD players, etc., etc. output "clipped signals" (defined as Black=16 & White =235) over DVI/HDMI because

THAT IS THE VIDEO STANDARD!!

If you are getting crushed blacks, etc., your display is not calibrated properly.

Thanks for that info.

It appears I was mistaken and/or misinformed. Here is how I understand the problem. (Which contradicts what you said about all STB's sending 16-235 scale.)

http://utalk.att.com/t5/Equipment/Ho...sage-uid/99083

toward the bottom of the page

"Crushed blacks occur when the U-Verse STB is sending information using the 0-255 scale, and your TV is interpreting the received information using the 16-235 scale, which is what was happening to my setup. "


(May Panasonic 50" 800U has a "light/dark" setting but this does not solve the problem.) Others have experienced the same problem and no amount of calibrating seems to resolve the issue. If anyone knows which setting(s) to adjust so that the tv correctly handles the incoming data, I'm all ears.
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post #494 of 504 Old 03-08-2010, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjgje View Post

"Crushed blacks occur when the U-Verse STB is sending information using the 0-255 scale, and your TV is interpreting the received information using the 16-235 scale, which is what was happening to my setup."

If this STB is using the 0-255 scale, then it is the first I have ever heard of that does it. I would hope that it has a setting which restores the box back to video standard. I'll check into it further.

PS. OK. I've done some research. Yes the U-Verse box is doing it wrong! See this discussion.

I guess I see how this problem evolved - the box is an IP-based computer using Mickeysoft drivers and is outputting PC levels, not video levels.

If you have a second HDMI input on your TV, you could calibrate it for the 0-255 range for that box and use the original HDMI input for the video devices.

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post #495 of 504 Old 03-09-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

If this STB is using the 0-255 scale, then it is the first I have ever heard of that does it. I would hope that it has a setting which restores the box back to video standard. I'll check into it further.

PS. OK. I've done some research. Yes the U-Verse box is doing it wrong! See this discussion.

I guess I see how this problem evolved - the box is an IP-based computer using Mickeysoft drivers and is outputting PC levels, not video levels.

If you have a second HDMI input on your TV, you could calibrate it for the 0-255 range for that box and use the original HDMI input for the video devices.

Thanks again for more helpful information. The problem is, I'm not sure if my tv (pan 50pz800u) can even handle the <16 and >235 data. The manual is silent on the issue.

Does anyone know if there is a receiver than can reprocess the STB data in a way that will allow the tv to correctly handle it?
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post #496 of 504 Old 03-09-2010, 04:16 PM
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Some of the Denon AVRs including the 4310 have a switchable mode within the GUI..
a. Normal, 16-235
b. Enhanced, 0-255

If one is going to use an HTPC as an HDMI source then the Denon would be a good choice. Just keep in mind that in reviewing the www.cp-digital.com website we failed to find any HTPCs that have been HDMI/HDCP certified for an HDMI repeater so possible HDMI handshake issues may result..

Just my $0.01..
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post #497 of 504 Old 03-25-2013, 12:47 PM
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Hello guys. I hope it's OK to to ask this question here. I intend to buy a Marantz NR1603 soon and will be connecting a PC and games consoles to it. Si I'll be using more 0-255 stuff than 16-235.

I'd just like to ask if anyone knows if this receiver can support 0-255, or any others before it could. Unfortunately my Projector clips BTB and WTW anyway so having it able to pass it isn't too much of a problem with 16-235.


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post #498 of 504 Old 03-25-2013, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I think this thread has pretty much run its course, and not many are following it. I don't know that particular model, but I haven't seen any recent reports of this issue with receivers from Marantz or Denon (the two companies are now basically one, and their models are often built on common designs).
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post #499 of 504 Old 03-26-2013, 02:30 AM
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Now it's possible to measure HDMI output precisely so this has move on to a new level of accuracy from using test discs. The Secrets has been doing that for BD players but not AFAIK for AVRs. Player's output is not necessarily identical from YCbCr 422 to 444 to RGB so testing should be done on all three. It makes you wonder if similar is happening in AVRs.

Clipping is only one issue. Some AVRs (Onkyo and Integra) mess up the frame-rate 23.976 to 24.00fps. This isn't a trivial problem as it can cause periodic judder which is troublesome for some people.

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post #500 of 504 Old 03-26-2013, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Good points. This thread was originally just about clipping of BTB and WTW, but there are definitely other things to worry about. For example, in the Oppo BDP-103 thread there are complaints about sharpening that can't be defeated on one of the HDMI outputs, and chrominance errors on the other output.
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post #501 of 504 Old 03-26-2013, 11:17 AM
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I wonder if all AVRs are able to pass 4:4:4.


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post #502 of 504 Old 03-26-2013, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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RGB 4:4:4 is mandatory, and the HDMI 1.3 spec says:

"If an HDMI Sink supports either YCBCR 4:2:2 or YCBCR 4:4:4 then both shall be supported."

But if the EDID doesn't report the capabilities correctly I suppose anything is possible.
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post #503 of 504 Old 03-26-2013, 05:30 PM
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The receiver could convert 4:4:4 RGB/YCC to 4:2:2 YCC for processing. That's apparently why a lot of TVs fail the 4:4:4 chroma test.
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post #504 of 504 Old 03-26-2013, 05:33 PM
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The SSP-800 does not problems 


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