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post #1 of 32 Old 04-08-2008, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Any good new seperates with quality DACs PCM1792s that do the new formats DTS HD and DOLBY HD?

I looking to spend around 6000.00 The new Denon seperates seem nice but are way past my budget. Any info is much appreciated. Thanx Chris

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post #2 of 32 Old 04-08-2008, 07:27 PM
 
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baddgsx you can look at the integra 9.8 or the onkyo pro 885, do you need a processor for XLR outputs?
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post #3 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

The PCM1792 is very impressive - 132 dB SNR.

HDMI pre/pros are, well, in short supply right now. See the link at the bottom of this message. The only pre/pro I know using it at the moment is the Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

So you know who is using the PCM1792? The Yamaha RX-V663.

Where are you getting this information from? Is there a spec sheet on it?

The $5,000 Z11 from Yamaha is only using the PCM1796 DAC, so it seems odd that they'd jump up to the PCM1792 for this unit.

http://www.yamaha.ca/av/PDFs/Receive...1_Brochure.pdf
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post #4 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 12:21 PM
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I was surprised too.

But you are right - my apologies. I didn't cross-check this enough, and I know better. I deleted my original posting as it was wrong.

The one time I don't post my reference... sheesh

PS: The Denon A1HD is marked at PCM-1796: usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3922.asp. So I guess that means no pre/pro is currently using the 1792.
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post #5 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

baddgsx you can look at the integra 9.8 or the onkyo pro 885, do you need a processor for XLR outputs?

he specifically asked for those containing the PCM1792 DACs, not what YOU think is a good processor

the Integra 9.8 has the 1796 dacs:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Tango View Post

Burr-Brown 192khz/24 bit (PCM1796) for all channels. Six 2 channel DACs.
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folder...t/pcm1796.html

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post #6 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 02:05 PM
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I don't mean to stir up trouble here but I can't help but thinking shoping for units based on the DAC it sort of odd. It seems of me the DAC (of modern vintage) and the AMP(that can deliver the power you need) have the least to do with how things will sound.

DACs are cheap, they convert 0's and 1's to up and down electrical waves. They have been building high quality dacs now for sometime. I think the 663 and 863 are the newest AVRs (they have been on the market maybe a month) that have been built so it might just be that they got the latest dac. This does not mean sound from the z11 and 663 (used as a pre-pro) will be the same (but who knows if anyone has tried?).

Comparing DAC S/N ratios of DAC it like saying do I want really really good or really really really good. What is the S/N ratio of your speakers?

Overall design it what matter most.
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post #7 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmannth View Post

I don't mean to stir up trouble here but I can't help but thinking shoping for units based on the DAC it sort of odd. It seems of me the DAC (of modern vintage) and the AMP(that can deliver the power you need) have the least to do with how things will sound.

DACs are cheap, they convert 0's and 1's to up and down electrical waves. They have been building high quality dacs now for sometime. I think the 663 and 863 are the newest AVRs (they have been on the market maybe a month) that have been built so it might just be that they got the latest dac. This does not mean sound from the z11 and 663 (used as a pre-pro) will be the same (but who knows if anyone has tried?).

Comparing DAC S/N ratios of DAC it like saying do I want really really good or really really really good. What is the S/N ratio of your speakers?

Overall design it what matter most.

dac's do have a major role, but you are right, the overall system design is imperative. You need to know your entire chain, from your transport, to your processor, to your amplification stage, to your speaker's sensitivity and performance, to last but definitely not least, your room treatments.

certain people think that slapping the most expensive gear in a room will automatically give them a great sound, and that's about as far from the truth as you can get. However, properly implemented gear, with high end DACs, filters, preamp stages, etc, in a well treated room, will definitely open up the details and soundstaging of the listening.
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post #8 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 02:26 PM
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I have a very very very quiet room, heavily soundproofed and treated, with pretty good speakers. So noise floor and dynamic range matters to me in both the SSP DAC, analogue preamp stage and amp.

With my next upgrade I am shooting for a system that aims to hit 120dB SNR end to end. Why? Well, because I can and its now technically possible.
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post #9 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddgsx View Post

Any good new seperates with quality DACs PCM1792s that do the new formats DTS HD and DOLBY HD?

I looking to spend around 6000.00 The new Denon seperates seem nice but are way past my budget. Any info is much appreciated. Thanx Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

Where are you getting this information from? Is there a spec sheet on it?

The $5,000 Z11 from Yamaha is only using the PCM1796 DAC, so it seems odd that they'd jump up to the PCM1792 for this unit.

http://www.yamaha.ca/av/PDFs/Receive...1_Brochure.pdf

I was just fixing to chew you out when i read that yes, the Z11 has DSD1796. I was under the false impression it had 1792s, thx good point.
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post #10 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 05:04 PM
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Hehehe... buying by type/brand of DAC always cracks me up.

Go buy two of the very best ones you can and stick one in each ear. How do they sound?

Doesn't make sense you say? Ahhh, but it does.

The point is that the DAC itself is only but one piece of the puzzle. IMO, implementation of the DAC into a working circuit is just as important, if not more so, than the DAC itself.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #11 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 06:21 PM
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pcm 1791 is the best. The big denon5805 has it.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #12 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

pcm 1791 is the best. The big denon5805 has it.

Why to you say it is the best?
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post #13 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

The point is that the DAC itself is only but one piece of the puzzle. IMO, implementation of the DAC into a working circuit is just as important, if not more so, than the DAC itself.

I believe that point was made and we agree. If you want low noise, high dynamic range you have to have a good DAC, excellent preamp and amp and good speakers... But if you have a 90 dB SNR DAC you are not doing any better than that.
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post #14 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 08:55 PM
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because I am in awe of the 5805s size. Also pcm1791 is the flagship BB DAC.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #15 of 32 Old 04-09-2008, 09:55 PM
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post #16 of 32 Old 04-10-2008, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

because I am in awe of the 5805s size. Also pcm1791 is the flagship BB DAC.

No, the DSD1792 is the "flagship" DAC but the PCM1796 seems to be the one being used more often now in the higher end models; at least the ones using BB DAC's. Pioneer have opted for 6 six Wolfson WM8741 DAC's on their new SC-09TX.

http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/...ct%20flyer.pdf

Have you looked at the cost per chip? The DSD1792 is several times more than the PCM1791A. The dynamic range is almost 20dB more as well.

Code:
Burr-Brown PCM1791A  113dB SNR  $ 3.00/ea    Yamaha RX-V3800, Yamaha RX-V1800, Denon 3808, 4308 and DVD-2930CI
Burr-Brown PCM1796   123dB SNR  $ 6.50/ea    Yamaha RX-Z11, Onkyo 805/875/905, Denon 5308CI and DVD-3930CI
Burr-Brown PCM1792A  127dB SNR  $13.00/ea    ?
Burr-Brown PCM1792   132dB SNR  $13.65/ea    Yamaha RX-Z9, Denon 5805ci and DVD-5910
I think you can see by which receivers are using which DAC's that the 1791 is not the flagship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmannth View Post

I don't mean to stir up trouble here but I can't help but thinking shoping for units based on the DAC it sort of odd. It seems of me the DAC (of modern vintage) and the AMP(that can deliver the power you need) have the least to do with how things will sound.

DACs are cheap, they convert 0's and 1's to up and down electrical waves. They have been building high quality dacs now for sometime. I think the 663 and 863 are the newest AVRs (they have been on the market maybe a month) that have been built so it might just be that they got the latest dac. This does not mean sound from the z11 and 663 (used as a pre-pro) will be the same (but who knows if anyone has tried?).

Comparing DAC S/N ratios of DAC it like saying do I want really really good or really really really good. What is the S/N ratio of your speakers?

Overall design it what matter most.

No trouble to be stirred up at all. I would hope that within Onkyo's architecture the technology inside the 805-905 is better than the 505-605, the DAC accounting for some of this improvement also. If you want the full dynamic range of SACD you're going to try one component at a time to realize that; having a DAC with a dynamic range of 120dB or higher accomplishes this and the PCM1796 and PCM/DSD1792 both fit that category.

The DAC's are cheap but those prices listed are not per unit, they are no doubt for thousands at a time. If the DAC's were really "cheap" wouldn't they use the PCM1796 or PCM1792/DSD1792 in all receivers?

The Denon 4308CI is a fairly recent receiver too, but it only got PCM1791A DAC's while the Denon 5308CI received PCM1796 DAC's. The Onkyo 805 received PCM1796 as well, which was out before the 4308CI. The type of chip is not often mentioned by the CE, it's normally the bit depth and sampling rate that's mentioned. From what I can gather from the list the DAC used doesn't have much to do with the year of manufacture of the receiver, but rather the cost. The one exception to that rule seems to be Onkyo who seem to be the only CE using PCM1796 DAC's in a receiver under $2,000.

If the DAC is part of the overall design, it's just another thing to keep on your checklist along with your room architecture, speaker placement, cabling, etc. I'm hoping that Onkyo's TX-NR906 (806/876 as well) will feature PCM1796 DAC's as well, but also be able to utilize 24/196 TrueHD and dts-ma, which they currently do not. For TrueHD 24/196 sources only the left and right channels will come through, for dts-ma 24/196 sources they will be converted to 24/96. The TrueHD 24/192 thing bugs me, because I expect some 5.1 audio-only discs to arrive with multi-channel 24/192 at some point and I'd like to be able to listen to them; even if I can't ascertain the difference between 24/96 and 24/192 I can certainly hear the difference between stereo and multi-channel.

It's all part of the big picture. I know I've got a LONG way to go with my set-up before I'm to be sated.
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post #17 of 32 Old 04-10-2008, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post

Code:
Burr-Brown PCM1791A  113dB SNR  $ 3.00/ea    Yamaha RX-V3800, Yamaha RX-V1800, Denon 3808, 4308 and DVD-2930CI
Burr-Brown PCM1796   123dB SNR  $ 6.50/ea    Yamaha RX-Z11, Onkyo 805/875/905, Denon 5308CI and DVD-3930CI
Burr-Brown PCM1792A  127dB SNR  $13.00/ea    ?
Burr-Brown PCM1792   132dB SNR  $13.65/ea    Yamaha RX-Z9, Denon 5805ci and DVD-5910
The DAC's are cheap but those prices listed are not per unit, they are no doubt for thousands at a time. If the DAC's were really "cheap" wouldn't they use the PCM1796 or PCM1792/DSD1792 in all receivers?

Actually, those prices are not far from single-unit pricing:

PCM1791 - $3.84
PCM1792 - $14.24
PCM1793 - $3.84
PCM1794 - $14.94
PCM1796 - $4.78

These prices are from Newark.com.
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post #18 of 32 Old 04-10-2008, 11:28 AM
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Given how cheap the DACs are (in relative terms), what are top of the DACs used in all receivers and processors?
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post #19 of 32 Old 04-10-2008, 01:57 PM
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At the risk of getting in over my head here, let me say that I don't think you're talking about a "dynamic range" of 120dB with the DAC, it is the S/N ratio that is 120dB. That is only important if you are measuring everything else in your system and measuring it all the same way. I'm not sure anyone here can tell the difference between an S/N ration of 100dB vs. one of 120dB by just listening to the unit. I would certainly accept anyone here who is a electrical engeneer to step in and correct me.

gthomas
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post #20 of 32 Old 04-13-2008, 01:30 PM
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For anyone interested in the actual OP question, I found a pre/pro that has announced its use of the PCM1792 on L/R/C - Classe SSP-800. However, it will not initially support the HBR formats. MSRP is $8000, and pre-orders are currently being taken for an announced launch in May.
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post #21 of 32 Old 04-13-2008, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UWDawg View Post

Given how cheap the DACs are (in relative terms), what are top of the DACs used in all receivers and processors?

Even though the parts are relatively cheap, you rarely find AVR manufacturers using the top end part throughout their product line. Frequently they go downmarket in part performance for mid-range systems. Take a look at fyzziks post above. You wouldn't think $60 in DACs is a big percentage of a $1500-2500 device. But I guess that little bit extra of profit margin makes a difference in scale.

Denon is a good example. The DACs vary from the 3808 (PCM1791A) up to the 5808 (PCM1796 - note dolbyblue's post was incorrect on this, see the Denon website.).

Interestingly Onkyo bucked this trend for the Onkyo 885/Integra DTC 9.8. They released those models with top end PCM1796 DACs (at the time of release) at a market low price point.
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post #22 of 32 Old 04-14-2008, 07:39 PM
 
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Even though the parts are relatively cheap, you rarely find AVR manufacturers using the top end part throughout their product line.

No, this is what "audiophiles" say to make them selves sound better.
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post #23 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

Denon is a good example. The DACs vary from the 3808 (PCM1791A) up to the 5808 (PCM1796 - note dolbyblue's post was incorrect on this, see the Denon website.).

Denon's website is incorrect on a few things. It originally listed the 5308CI as having PCM1791A DAC's, when the spec sheet states PCM1796.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3922.asp

Now it lists PCM1791A as the part.
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DougWinsor,

Eric is beyond reproach. He has a sophisticated ear, but he's also got no hidden agenda and his posts are a heck of a lot more informative than yours.

He's stating a fact, not an opinion, so the end result of him sounding better is that he's actually useful.

Richard
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post #25 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 09:10 AM
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dolbyblue,

Could you clarify you post for me? Are you saying the AVP-A1HDCI listing at 1796 is incorrect and it is actually 1792 inside? The web page says 1796, and the product sheet doesn't say one way or the other.
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post #26 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 02:55 PM
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Regardless of DACs, good luck finding any AVP with a SN ration of 120 dB, let alone a Onkyo, Denon class model. Some 2 ch preamps reach that (low) noise level, but I am not aware of any surround processors that do. Even the $30,000 Mark Levinson No. 40 is rated at 98 dB. The legendary No. 32 preamp is rated 120 dB, by comparision.

"The truth is out there!"
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post #27 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 05:00 PM
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Hmm. None, eh? Does HomeTheater count? Integra DTC 9.8 pre/pro, measured at –125.30 dBrA SNR. Actually the Secrets review showed an impressively low noise floor too. And its just the first of the next round of processors.

Examples exist of power amps (e.g. IcePath) and preamps too.

Times change, gear gets better.
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Quote:


Eric is beyond reproach. He has a sophisticated ear, but he's also got no hidden agenda and his posts are a heck of a lot more informative than yours.

He's stating a fact, not an opinion, so the end result of him sounding better is that he's actually useful.

So by his ear we should take everything as fact?
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post #29 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 06:10 PM
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Doug,

Read the post. Performance is measured, in this thread, for this discussion, by SNR. You deliberately misread postings and then engage in personal attacks. Nowhere did I say one sounds better, or make any other subjective auditory claim. My statement is factually true. Make even the most trivial effort with Google to do some research and you will see that AVR manufacturers routinely use a variety of DACs with different SNRs at their different price points.
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post #30 of 32 Old 04-21-2008, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

Hmm. None, eh? Does HomeTheater count? Integra DTC 9.8 pre/pro, measured at –125.30 dBrA SNR. Actually the Secrets review showed an impressively low noise floor too. And its just the first of the next round of processors.

Examples exist of power amps (e.g. IcePath) and preamps too.

Times change, gear gets better.

According to the Onkyo website, the PR-SC885P, which of course is the same as the DTC 9.8, has a SN ration of 110 dB. Very good, but not 120 dB.

http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Preamplifier

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