The Onkyo TX-SR606 Owners Thread - Page 81 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #2401 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 12:03 PM
Member
 
VictorWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Greendale, WI, US
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfruit View Post

Would it not be better for those affected to start a separate thread about the hum/buzz problem in 606's?
I have just tested it by pausing several dvd's (Dolby 1, 2.0, 5.1 and DTS) on my PS3 and turning the volume to Max. Even with my ear to the speaker, I hear nothing. Then I remembered, someone wrote that it only occurs on 1080p systems (mine is 1080i). Do I need to use bitstream or PCM, DD sources and non-DD sources? A 7.1 or 5.1 setup? A disconnected sub? A 5.1 system tricked into thinking it is 7.1?
I have followed this thread from the start, but I lost track of what is or is not required to hear the unwanted noise. A separate thread with a startup FAQ might save a lot of confusion and repeat posts.

I can cause the humm/buzz by doing the following. Start the PS3 and make sure the audio is PCM (not sure if you have a choice here). Sit on an item in the XMB (main menu) with no sound and crank the volume up. The buzz is there.

Using a DVD, make sure the PS3 is outputting PCM and pause the DVD of BD and crank the volume.

I have a 1080p set and 5.1 setup with sub and this happens every time.
VictorWI is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2402 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 12:07 PM
Newbie
 
huxrules's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I ran a spectrum analyzer on the my 606 - to hunt out the buzz. you can see the results on my blog at http://www.huxrules.com.

Short version- turn off the Audyssey in the EQ. (but what fun is that)
huxrules is offline  
post #2403 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 12:19 PM
Member
 
tlabatte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hux, Can you call your service center and ask if they did more than upgrade the FW? Specifically, did they make a resistor change to the HDMI Board. This will help a lot.
tlabatte is offline  
post #2404 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 01:36 PM
Senior Member
 
mystik610's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 245
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by huxrules View Post

I ran a spectrum analyzer on the my 606 - to hunt out the buzz. you can see the results on my blog at http://www.huxrules.com.

Short version- turn off the Audyssey in the EQ. (but what fun is that)

Is there any additional audio processing done by audyssey 2eq calibration feature? I know the audyssey dynamic EQ actively processes the audio signal based on the output volume (which is a great feature over the 605 btw), but does the audyssey 2eq calibration system involve any active audio processing? If the Audyssey 2eq system is really the culprit, and there isn't any active audio processing done by the system, couldn't someone run the audyssey set-up, turn audyssey off, and manually calibrate the audio and speaker settings using the values the audyssey system generated? And by doing so, could one still benefit from the auto-calibrated settings (minus the dynamic EQ) without leaving the audyssey setting on?

I'm fortunate enough to own a 606 unit that doesn't have any buzzing issues, so I'm enjoying both the audyssey 2eq and the audyssey dynamic EQbut for those who are suffering the buzzing issues, maybe this would be worth a shot

Cool feature on your iphone btw. If they ever get around releasing a simplified unlock for version 1.1.2 (I'm using a jailbroken 1.1.4), I might look into downloading it myself.
mystik610 is offline  
post #2405 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 01:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
aydu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,715
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by nc_av_newbee View Post

After reading some of the professional reviews of this receiver, I recently upgraded from a Pioneer VSX-1015TX to this Onkyo receiver. Mainly I did it to get the HDMI connections and so I could pass 'bitstream' to this receiver so it could decode 'DTS-HD Master Audio' and 'Dolby TrueHD' for lossless sound.

I have the following equipment hooked up to it.
JVC HD61FH96 LCOS - HDTV
Panasonic DMP-BD30 - BluRay player
Toshiba HD-A35 - HD-DVD player
Explorer 8300HD - cable box

Speakers:
Infinity Beta 50 - fronts (bi-wired)
Infinity Beta C360 - center
Infinity Beta ES250 - surrounds
Infinity SW-12 - powered subwoofer

I have to say that the setup of this receiver was VERY easy and while my Pioneer VSX-1015TX had very good sound, this Onkyo is noticably better. Incredible surround sound clarity with my setup.

I also love how the HDMI makes the hookups so much more uncluttered, along with the fact that I can now pass 'bitstream' lossless sound to this receiver for it to decode. 'DTS-HD Master Audio' and 'Dolby TrueHD' sent bitstream from the Panasonic BluRay and Toshiba HD-DVD players sound incredible.

I love my new setup and have not had any issues with buzzing.

I upgaded from a 1015 to the 606 too. I thought the 1015 sounded good, but after listening to the 606 I have to admit that the Pioneer sounded like a blanket was placed over my speakers.

The Onkyo removed that blanket and added a significant amount of power, even though the receivers don't differ much in their output ratings (Onkyo is actually lower).
aydu is online now  
post #2406 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 02:34 PM
Member
 
nc_av_newbee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by aydu View Post

I upgaded from a 1015 to the 606 too. I thought the 1015 sounded good, but after listening to the 606 I have to admit that the Pioneer sounded like a blanket was placed over my speakers.

The Onkyo removed that blanket and added a significant amount of power, even though the receivers don't differ much in their output ratings (Onkyo is actually lower).

Also, it seems that I hear more (or clearer) sounds from my 'surround' speakers. Not sure if that is a bi-product of the Onkyo vs the Pioneer or it could possibly have something to to with the 'automatic' setup of the speakers via the 'microphone' setup. All, I can say is that the surround sound from the High Def dvds I have played so far has been great.
nc_av_newbee is offline  
post #2407 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 03:08 PM
Member
 
NKrader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
the microphone setup sucks ass.. i run it and it ****s my audio.. levels and such are all wrong.. better to manually setup.. anyone else have this problem? 606 is fukin amazing
NKrader is offline  
post #2408 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 05:03 PM
Member
 
nc_av_newbee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by NKrader View Post

the microphone setup sucks ass.. i run it and it ****s my audio.. levels and such are all wrong.. better to manually setup.. anyone else have this problem? 606 is fukin amazing

I'm sure the results you get depend somewhat on your speakers, room size, room shape, and furnishings. Plus, everyone has their own perception of what sounds good to them. I was happy with how mine sounded. After living with it a while, I may make some minor adjustments.
nc_av_newbee is offline  
post #2409 of 9471 Old 07-31-2008, 05:32 PM
Senior Member
 
SeriousHorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfruit View Post

Would it not be better for those affected to start a separate thread about the hum/buzz problem in 606's?

You might be right, drfruit.
There's a lot of confusion around this problem, largely because that's the nature of internet chat boards:-) But also because there actually seem to be two separate problems. They may well be related, but as far as I can tell they're not the same thing. The other factor that complicates things is that not every 606 is affected. Some people get no buzz, others get more than they can handle, and certainly more than they'd like.

Buzz problem 1: The Dynamic EQ/Dolby digital problem, ie, if you turn on Dynamic EQ while running a Dolby digital source your speakers will start to buzz. This is the problem I've been tracking with help from Chris from Audyssey. It can only happen if you've done an Audyssey 2EQ set up because only then will Dynamic EQ come into play (I'm not sure if it's enabled by default once you've done the Audyssey set up - I think not). It happens either with HDMI or optical audio connections - it's not just a HDMI problem - but it only happens with Dolby digital sources. PCM sources produce no buzz. The solution is simple: turn off Dynamic EQ. The only problem is, Dynamic EQ is a great feature, especially at lower listening volumes.
According to Chris, this is definitely not an Audyssey problem - it's a problem with Onkyo's hardware. He contacted Onkyo Japan about it and they were able to reproduce it. They also promised a fix, most likely a hardware fix. But it doesn't seem like details of this fix have been communicated to Onkyo US yet, or other worldwide dealers, because, so far, nobody has reported their unit being fixed. I thought huxrules was going to be the first, but his 606 came back "fixed" and it still buzzes.
Chris has been incredibly helpful trying to get this issue fixed. Onkyo, on the other hand, haven't been helpful at all. Both Cal1981 and I have tried to contact Onkyo USA's Product Manager for the 606 but he simply hasn't answered any emails. If you want his details and want to try for yourself, just PM me.
I'm still hopeful that a fix is in the works. We just have to wait for it to filter through to Onkyo's service departments.

Buzz problem 2: the HDMI buzz issue. This appears to affect PS3 owners mostly, but there have also been reports that it affects DVD players and cable boxes with HDMI audio connections. The problem here is buzz, buzz, buzz, all the time. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with the source (Dolby or PCM) or whether or not Dynamic EQ is enabled.
Onkyo supposedly have a hardware fix available for this issue. Old Deuteronomy posted a link to the Onkyo service document here. Direct link (to ImageShack) is here.
Again, we have to wait and see what this actually fixes.
SeriousHorse is offline  
post #2410 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 02:34 AM
Member
 
drfruit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
For those asking about satisfied users of a TX-SR606, I am one of them.

The Onkyo replaced my Marantz SR5300, which sounded good but lacked HDMI capacity.
I kept my Mordaunt Short 302/304/308 surround speaker set and bought a couple of Dali Suite 1.7 front speakers to create a 5.1 system. The great thing is that they seem to be perfectly matched after using the Audyssey setup. I cannot tell which speaker produces which part of the sound.

This reciever puts me right in the middle of the sound stage. I used to wonder what a movie with a great sound track would sound like in a state-of-the-art cinema, but now I feel like I know. The Marantz did not make my Mordaunt Shorts sound anywhere near this good.

My Toshiba HD DVD player, PS3 (even at maximum volume) and TViX 6500a HD media player all work flawlessly over HDMI. The only problem I had was with my Philips HDTV PVR for UPC cable TV, which produces audio dropouts over HDMI (a couple of times an hour at random intervals). I fixed the problem by using an optical cable for the audio.

I have not experienced any of the buzz/hum problems with my PS3 or any other source. I hope those affected will find a fix so they can enjoy their 606 as much as I do.
drfruit is offline  
post #2411 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 06:07 AM
Member
 
adam320's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 99
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does anyone have the Onkyo Ipod dock? Do you know if you can use it without the tv on? I dont want to leave static images on the plasma while playing music. Thanks.. Or if there is a similiar non-onkyo product that works better any suggestions would be great. Thanks.
adam320 is offline  
post #2412 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 08:22 AM
Member
 
tmc1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I must say, I almost didn't buy this receiver because of this famous buzzing sound. I got one at the suggestion of a couple people just the same. I have my TX-SR606B hooked up to JBL CS6100, PS3 and HD-Cable box hooked up using HDMI850HD Monster cables and so far the sound is unreal. The PS3 is running DTSHD and it sounds great at both low and high volume levels.

Good luck to those with issues and I hope I never run into any of them.

So far the 606 has been a great upgrade to my old system.

Cheers,
tmc1971 is offline  
post #2413 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 08:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Itsdon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
Posts: 1,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmc1971 View Post


Good luck to those with issues and I hope I never run into any of them.

The people or the issues?

"Life is a toy, play with it"
Itsdon is offline  
post #2414 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 09:27 AM
Member
 
GoodToGo1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Are recent buyers of the 606 getting buzz? Or it only confined to older ones?
GoodToGo1 is offline  
post #2415 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 10:09 AM
Senior Member
 
BRAISKI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CANADA
Posts: 412
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Guys is the remote control RF or IR?

Denon 2809CI
C: Def Tech - CLR2002
F: Def Tech - BP2002TL
S: Def Tech - BP1.2X
SB: Def Tech - PM400
Sub: Still looking
BRAISKI is offline  
post #2416 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 10:20 AM
Newbie
 
tallguylikacurry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Denver CO
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Brand new here...I recently purchased (recieved it on 7/18) the 606 from crutchfield and it had the dreaded buzz when played through the PS3. Unaware others were experiencing the same problem, I spoke to crutchfield and onkyo and was directed to try another unit without any acknowledgement from either party a problem exists. While I waited for my new unit I found this forumn and discovered many others are experiencing the same problem. My new unit arrived yesterday from Crutchfield and had the exact problem. Spoke with onkyo, armed with data that this is a real problem, and they informed me that all of their distributers have been notified to no longer send out faulty units. They told me crutchfield does know as well but was probably trying to get rid of their inventory. I was pretty annoyed in hearing this and called crutchfield back today and explained to them what onkyo had said. They claim they may have recieved notice but it hasn't filtered throughout their company but now that i have called them, they will surely make sure this doesn't happen.

I doubt they will stop shipping faulty units, but who knows? I am now going to take it to the service center and wait three weeks in the hopes the problem is resolved. If it wasn't for the fact that my wife through out the box, I would of sent this back and gone on my way. Its hard not to like all of the options this reciever offers at this price range, but the buzzing noise is f'ng rediculous. If you don't have a unit thats impacted, you are lucky.
tallguylikacurry is offline  
post #2417 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 10:34 AM
Senior Member
 
mystik610's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 245
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToGo1 View Post

Are recent buyers of the 606 getting buzz? Or it only confined to older ones?

I got my 606 just last saturday from CC (on sale for 399 + another 10% off)....haven't had any problems with buzzing so far.

Here's my set-up:

40gb PS3 -->HDMI --->onkyo 606

xbox 360-->HDMI --->onkyo 606

comcast HD cable box ---->HDMI --->onkyo 606




onkyo 606 ---->hdmi ---> samsung lnt5271f
mystik610 is offline  
post #2418 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 10:35 AM
Senior Member
 
mystik610's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 245
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToGo1 View Post

Are recent buyers of the 606 getting buzz? Or it only confined to older ones?

I got my 606 just last saturday from CC (on sale for 399 + another 10% off)....haven't had any problems with buzzing so far.

Here's my set-up:

40gb PS3 -->HDMI --->onkyo 606

xbox 360-->HDMI --->onkyo 606

comcast HD cable box ---->HDMI --->onkyo 606




onkyo 606 ---->HDMI ---> samsung lnt5271f
mystik610 is offline  
post #2419 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 12:52 PM
Member
 
gabrielh1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
FYI...

Onkyo SR606B for $350 shipped.

http://www.6ave.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=ONKTXSR606B

Use coupon code SUMMER72908 for the extra 6% off.
gabrielh1979 is offline  
post #2420 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 01:03 PM
Newbie
 
glemigh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My 606 arrived July 31st, no buzzing with Toshiba HD-A3, FiOS HD box connected via HDMI.

All seems well.

George
glemigh is offline  
post #2421 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 01:38 PM
Member
 
mazer75's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey how do you guys get this for $399 at CC? Right now it's listed as $429 there...
mazer75 is offline  
post #2422 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 02:00 PM
Newbie
 
sparky3003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi I am new to this so please forgive me for sounding stupid.I have just purchased a 606 and using it with jamo A102hcs5 ,panosnic th42px70,ps3,sky+,wii.How do I best connect this all up.SO far I have a couple of qed HDMI cables a optical cable.I have also got speaker cable.How do I connect the spaeakers to the amp.Do I connect them first to the sub or straight to the amp.Also what do I use to connect the sub to the amp and how many cables do I need for this.Thanks for your help.
sparky3003 is offline  
post #2423 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 02:02 PM
Member
 
zetachi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Queens NY
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
well just bought this a 6th ave could not pass up on that price. Here's hoping for no buzz.
zetachi is offline  
post #2424 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 02:35 PM
Member
 
Whitay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I so want to pull the trigger and buy this from 6th Ave as well, but I just don't want to deal with all of the hassle if it turns out badly.
Whitay is offline  
post #2425 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 02:51 PM
Member
 
mike6789's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
how do you get the subwoofer to work on "DIRECT" audio mode??
mike6789 is offline  
post #2426 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 03:02 PM
Member
 
rob61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabrielh1979 View Post

FYI...

Onkyo SR606B for $350 shipped.

http://www.6ave.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=ONKTXSR606B

Use coupon code SUMMER72908 for the extra 6% off.

Bet they are clearing out their "buzzing" stock. This is one "hummer" of a deal.
rob61 is offline  
post #2427 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 03:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kplex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,590
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike6789 View Post

how do you get the subwoofer to work on "DIRECT" audio mode??

Play a soundtrack that has an LFE (.1) channel.
kplex is offline  
post #2428 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 03:14 PM
Member
 
NKrader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike6789 View Post

how do you get the subwoofer to work on "DIRECT" audio mode??

what u mean? "direct"? i have mine plugged into sub line out then monster cable then monster sub splitter then turned lfe off and do it like that
NKrader is offline  
post #2429 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 03:16 PM
Member
 
NKrader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitay View Post

I so want to pull the trigger and buy this from 6th Ave as well, but I just don't want to deal with all of the hassle if it turns out badly.

just go for it
NKrader is offline  
post #2430 of 9471 Old 08-01-2008, 03:17 PM
Member
 
NKrader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tacoma, Wa
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparky3003 View Post

Hi I am new to this so please forgive me for sounding stupid.I have just purchased a 606 and using it with jamo A102hcs5 ,panosnic th42px70,ps3,sky+,wii.How do I best connect this all up.SO far I have a couple of qed HDMI cables a optical cable.I have also got speaker cable.How do I connect the spaeakers to the amp.Do I connect them first to the sub or straight to the amp.Also what do I use to connect the sub to the amp and how many cables do I need for this.Thanks for your help.

just connect to the back of the reciver.. plug the sub in and it should all work
NKrader is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off