Denon's 2008-09 Receivers Announced - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1382 Old 05-23-2008, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Fallen Kell View Post

Well, looking at those pic's, it looks like no pre-outs on any of the models, which means no sale to me... I am STILL looking to replace a "temporary" receiver I bought 4 YEARS AGO. I picked up a HK DPR-1001 for less than $200 because I needed something to test all my speakers which showed up that week. And I have yet to find something that has pre-outs, HDMI v1.3 or greater (yes this requirement changed as I went, but I knew even back then that I needed HDMI, and I would need whatever version supported the sound formats for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray), individual speaker delay and crossovers (not just pairs, but individual), good DACs... Video output conversion from composite/s-video/component -> HDMI and upconversion would be nice as well.

Why aren't these features that you see? Is this really too much to ask for? All I want are sharks with fricking laser beams on the heads, I feel all animals deserve a warm meal.....

The rear end view of the 2809 shows pre-outs. Most denon's provide that feature, as other brands.

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post #92 of 1382 Old 05-23-2008, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

The rear end view of the 2809 shows pre-outs. Most denon's provide that feature, as other brands.

well 2809 will be $1299!

no not all denons provide pre-outs and not all brands provide them.

You have to get all the way up to 2808 now to get all channel pre-outs.
Even the $849 2308 does not have pre-outs except sub out. Just ridiculous.

The Onkyo 606 ($499) does not provide preouts).
Marantz SR4002 provides preouts but the remote sucks. There is no way to
change the level of the channels on the fly. I have to adjust the level by playing test tones. What a clumsy way to adjust the levels.
605 and 705 provide buttons on the remote to adjust the speaker levels on the fly. So does Yamaha 663 and the Denons. So the Marantz is out of the list for me.

Did the idiots at Denon marketing make the decision that if they dont provide pre-outs then people will not buy separates and will only buy the denon AVR's?

Actually it the opposite. Why do people buy Yamaha 663 or Onkyo 705. because they give pre-outs, switched A/C outlet and 12V trigger, all
for $499. Yes you can get 705 for the same price as 663. On top of all this they handle post HDMI audio. I didnt find the sound quality of 705 to be any better than the 663 or my old Yamaha RX-V795a. So 705 went back. I also didnt keep the 663 as it wasnt better than my old 795a either, but it was very close to the 795a. The yamaha's seem to give deeper, tighter bass. I did not get that from the 705. I did try Denon 688 and thought I liked the sound but the Audyssey on that seemed messed up. So I am waiting for the new models. But if the new low end models dont give the pre-outs I would just get the 1908 or yamaha 663. I dont really care about post HDMI audio like True HD as I dont have Blu Ray or PS3.

The 705 deals wont last for too long. So currently the low end AVR to beat is the Yamaha 663. Of course someone could whine about the 2 HDMI inputs on the 663. I dont care much about video features on an AVR as I just connect the DVD player directly to the display and I also dont care about post HDMI audio. so what breaks the deal are the pre-outs, 12V trigger and A/C outlets. I presume the 663 has 2 outlets. So I can hook up both the CD and DVD player.

I have to wait for a while to see the 1909 specs and if it doesnt have all I want then I will just get the Yamaha 663 again and get some nice separates like Rotel RB-1070
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post #93 of 1382 Old 05-23-2008, 06:53 PM
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Note AVR-2809CI ($1,199), not $1299.

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post #94 of 1382 Old 05-23-2008, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Actually it the opposite. Why do people buy Yamaha 663 or Onkyo 705. because they give pre-outs, switched A/C outlet and 12V trigger, all
for $499.

In that price range, I doubt if more than a few percent of buyers are using the pre-outs. Actually, at any price range, AVR buyers are not likely to use the pre-outs, otherwise they would have bought separates. The less expensive the AVR, the higher the relative cost of getting separate amplfiers and the less likely somebody is going to go that direction.

The other reason for not offering pre-outs is product differentiation. Make the brand name fans pay top dollar for models with additional features
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post #95 of 1382 Old 05-24-2008, 11:44 AM
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Just waking up a busy thread that has fallen to sleep.
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post #96 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnu View Post

In that price range, I doubt if more than a few percent of buyers are using the pre-outs. Actually, at any price range, AVR buyers are not likely to use the pre-outs, otherwise they would have bought separates. The less expensive the AVR, the higher the relative cost of getting separate amplfiers and the less likely somebody is going to go that direction.

The other reason for not offering pre-outs is product differentiation. Make the brand name fans pay top dollar for models with additional features

I disagree with your first remark.

I dont have to buy expensive pre-amps like Integra DTC9.8 to use separates. People buy AVR's like 663 because it serves both as a good AVR and a very inexpensive pre-amp to run separates. Also you get the bass management which you cant get when you buy a pre-amp like Rotel RC-1070 which costs the same as 663 ($499). Not everyone who buy separates will have full range speakers that go down to 30Hz. I could have good bookshelf speakers and still use a dedicated 2ch amp to get clean power and use the AVR to drive the sub and also as a pre-amp. There are several floor standing speakers that go only to some 40Hz like B&W 684. So I would still need a sub with the B&W 684 or the CM7. There arent very many 2ch int. amps/receivers with bass management. Outlaw 2150 has bass management but gives very limited cross over options and also the cross over is not on the remote. It is a manual switch on the back panel.

So an AVR serves as a decent pre-amp with bass management and having pre-outs on an AVR has a lot of value. There are a lot of folks who use 663 or 705 as pre-amps.

I do agree with your last point i.e make the fans pay ridiculously high price to get the features that can be found in other AVR's half the price. This in my opinion is the main reason i.e to make more money. They could also make more money if they put those features on low end AVR's because more people will buy them. Look how many are buying the 663 or 705.

I bet if the 1908 or 788 had pre-outs and 12V trigger it would sell like hot cakes.

Well there is at least some topic to rant about since this thread has gone to page 3 or 4. May be it is too early to start a thread on the new models when there isnt much info out on Denon web site.

Looks like the main difference between the old and new models will be the support of post HDMI audio, even in the low end models. To me there arent important as I dont anticipate getting blu-ray/ps3 soon. So if that is the main difference in the 1909 or 789, I would get the 1908/788 if their price drops by some 100 bucks like what happened to Onkyo 605/606.
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post #97 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 04:01 PM
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currently use my 2805 as a pre to my Rotel amp, and love the sound.

I'm real glad to read that the 2809 will have pre-outs as well.

Besides the Audessy, what other features will the 2809 have that my 2805 doesn't? I was gonna get a 2808, but it didn't seem to offer all that much more then I already have.

Will the 2809 have HD radio? I know the 2808 has the XM, but that doesn't really interest me.
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post #98 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 05:21 PM
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I don't think they mentioned HD radio in the press release.

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post #99 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 05:43 PM
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I don't understand those wanting mid-to-low fi AVRs with pre-outs. Processors are imho more important than amplifier (assuming the room is reasonably sized and speakers don't have extremely low sensitivity). I think Denons got it right as far as pre-out offerings.

If I could only afford lo-fi or mid-fi AVRs, I wouldn't spend extra money on amps. I'd spend it on speakers or simply get a better AVR.
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post #100 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

It still signifies that Denon is using Faroudja in these models. This still means that quite a few of us will simply disable the video processing so that we don't encounter macroblocking on our displays.

Again, we don't know any of the new DCDi "Cinema" generation's performance - if you know something, I'd be glad to hear...
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post #101 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

I don't understand those wanting mid-to-low fi AVRs with pre-outs. Processors are imho more important than amplifier (assuming the room is reasonably sized and speakers don't have extremely low sensitivity). I think Denons got it right as far as pre-out offerings.

If I could only afford lo-fi or mid-fi AVRs, I wouldn't spend extra money on amps. I'd spend it on speakers or simply get a better AVR.


But isn't for the most part the real difference between many AVR's the amp section anyway? Especially when you get past entry-level.

I figure why spend more to get a more powerful receiver when it will be outdated in a few years. The amp I have, Rotel RMB-1075, will most likely still be giving great sound years from now, while this receiver will be sold for pennies on the dollar and something new is in the house.

As for getting a seperate pre-pro, unless I want to spend in the $2-3k area what gives the features and sound I get now?
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post #102 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by omirp View Post

Performance of FL2310 varies. It is dependent on how it is used, how the interfaces are implemented. I wonder if there is one manufacturer that fully implement all the features of the chip.

Err, no, I think you're confusing implementations - it is indeed possible they use with another chip but FLi2310 is a well-known chip, along with its serious flaws.
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post #103 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

As mentioned previously..
A video processor is not the instant magic chip which makes SD content HD quality.. The end visual appearance is as far as upscaling is concerned is largely dependent upon the noise floor of the native content. However if the upscaling is not desired turn it OFF, also note the video processor has other features as well including transcoding, noise reduction, aspect ratio, edge correction and OSD/GUI...

To me the comparison of an upscaled video stream and its benefits are similar to taking an original 2-channel audio track and running it through a multi-channel matrix decoder. One can get a multi-channel soundfield but how does it compare to a later, multi-channel native mix.

One other point to keep in mind is the implementation, using the IC one engineering team may do a better implementation than another with a better end-quality visual results. One point about the FLI2310 is that many of the applications we have seen failed to provide certain adjustments/tweaks accessible to the user, instead the brand decided to lock these out and chose some default value. What is clear is that a larger segment of the market can better judge the quality differences of various video processors than those for audio.
One thing for sure..
In todays' fast moving CE multi-media HD catgeories there is a continuous flow of new ICs that are more powerful than the previous generations..

Just my $0.02..

I agree. However there, you just said it: it's old ergo compared to other chips it's inherently outdated, period. To be honest I was surprised when companies still opted for it last Fall - it's a pretty crappy performer no matter how we look at it...
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post #104 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

I myself own a Oppo 980H and Oppo 983H for example so very familiar with the performance of the Oppo 981HD. It performed very well, but still you have issues of macroblocking with some types of displays that also used Faroudja processors like the DLP RPD's out there for example.

The next generation Cortez TV controller, the FLI30436 (Torino) was shipped to Tier 1 OEM customers in January 2007. So as you said it could already be incorporated into some A/V gear by now. Worth researching a bit.

I think you're confusing some names: http://gnss.com/prod_fp_tv.phtml

Quote:
Oh by the way Reon can't touch the latest Anchor Bay chip set!

Which one?
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post #105 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by smooth aviator View Post

I'm surprised at the faroudja bashing, particularly since the FL2310 which sits at the centre of the Oppo 981, is well acclaimed.

Which still suffers from its flaws, yes. Oppo makes nice products and Faroudja is not in the center but also Oppos are not the best units out there - aside of XA2 I would dare to say A35 is actually a better upscaler but it depends on many things, we know how it goes.

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I recall seeing product specs which described the newer faroudja 'Torino' or Cortez II, as having picture in picture capability and 10bit processing. The Denon 2809 seems to have dual source audio and video capability. If this chip has been included in the AVR, then consider that other flat panel TV manufacturers also use this chip. I have always looked forward to getting a video processing chip that is as good as one on a reputable TV, hence expanding my choice of panels. Denon is making a good case if these specs are true.

http://gnss.com/prod_fp_tv.phtml
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post #106 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Which still suffers from its flaws, yes. Oppo makes nice products and Faroudja is not in the center but also Oppos are not the best units out there - aside of XA2 I would dare to say A35 is actually a better upscaler but it depends on many things, we know how it goes.

Total nonsense. Many owners of the Toshiba XA2 who also own Oppo 983H says the 983H is better then the XA2. See this review as the Oppo 983H was the first to score a perfect 100 in the Secrets tests.

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post #107 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 06:50 PM
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Noticed today that Fry's is clearing out the AVR-988 and AVR-888 models.

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post #108 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by T2k View Post

I think you're confusing some names: http://gnss.com/prod_fp_tv.phtml

Which one?

Blame the business wire entitled Genesis Microchip Announces "Torino", Next Generation Cortez Advanced 1080p and 120Hz WXGA TV Controller.

The ABT102 for deinterlacing and the ABT1018 for scaling, the same as what's in the ABT's iScan VP30 video scaler.

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post #109 of 1382 Old 05-25-2008, 10:55 PM
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I cant believe everyone is still hung up on the video processor... Its not even a factor for me.

Lets talk about other features...

I really looked into getting seperates and maybe using a this as a preamplifier.. Than i realized that i would be throwing my money away

Denon amps are know to produce enough power with all channels driven at full range. At least 85-90 watts.

Since all my speakers would be set to small with all low frequencey sounds going to the subwoofer, the amp would have no problem handling everything.
Since most of the amps power goes towards lower frequencies it would be foolishg to by a serpate amp. I had looked at emotiva and outlaw.. even looked at used on audiogon.. rotel, arcam, adcom.

So i have to agree with the earlier poster that most people who but the 2809 would not be using it as a pre/pro only.

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post #110 of 1382 Old 05-26-2008, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tn001d View Post

I cant believe everyone is still hung up on the video processor... Its not even a factor for me.

Lets talk about other features...

I really looked into getting seperates and maybe using a this as a preamplifier.. Than i realized that i would be throwing my money away

Denon amps are know to produce enough power with all channels driven at full range. At least 85-90 watts.

Since all my speakers would be set to small with all low frequencey sounds going to the subwoofer, the amp would have no problem handling everything.
Since most of the amps power goes towards lower frequencies it would be foolishg to by a serpate amp. I had looked at emotiva and outlaw.. even looked at used on audiogon.. rotel, arcam, adcom.

So i have to agree with the earlier poster that most people who but the 2809 would not be using it as a pre/pro only.

Valid point. Video processing is not relevant to myself.

I'm looking at the Denon 2809 for its range of features, but also considering the unannounced Yamaha models (1900/3900), as well as Pioneer Elite VSX-03TXH. While its nice to see the 2809 have 4 HDMI inputs, I'd really like to see what other features it offers against the competition.

Pioneer receivers lack phono inputs (except SC-05 and above) which I consider odd since a lot of ardent collectors still utilize turntables but the elite receivers do offer THX processing.

HD Radio would be interesting but Denon seems to regulate new and interesting technology only to their high end receivers.

Yamaha seems to be interesting as they offer more technology for less, the functionality built into the 863 seems almost complete.

Hopefully we will see more information released about the new Denon models to answer our questions.

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post #111 of 1382 Old 05-26-2008, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Total nonsense to claim that Many owners of the Toshiba XA2 who also own Oppo 983H says the 983H is better then the XA2.

Fixed it for you.

Quote:


See this review as the Oppo 983H was the first to score a perfect 100 in the Secrets tests.

Yeah, suuure. "Secrets" test, ehh?

Seriously: do you actually believ anything you read in any ad-driven medium?
I have yet to see anyone seriously claiming Oppo is better than XA2, especially when its chip is inferior (yes, it is, it's not even the same league with Reon, stop being nonsensical.)
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post #112 of 1382 Old 05-26-2008, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tn001d View Post

I cant believe everyone is still hung up on the video processor... Its not even a factor for me.

I can't believe you can't believe that there are things beyond your own little bubble...

Quote:


Lets talk about other features...

We are talking about features, more precisley about video processing - it's you who couldn't contribute so decided to throw an insult to us.

Quote:


I really looked into getting seperates and maybe using a this as a preamplifier.. Than i realized that i would be throwing my money away

Denon amps are know to produce enough power with all channels driven at full range. At least 85-90 watts.

Since all my speakers would be set to small with all low frequencey sounds going to the subwoofer, the amp would have no problem handling everything.
Since most of the amps power goes towards lower frequencies it would be foolishg to by a serpate amp. I had looked at emotiva and outlaw.. even looked at used on audiogon.. rotel, arcam, adcom.

So i have to agree with the earlier poster that most people who but the 2809 would not be using it as a pre/pro only.

TO paraphrase you "I can't believe anyone's giving s flying frog about stupid premaping and frequencies and similar boring stuff... it's not even a factor for me."

Sounds nice, isn't it...

Anyway, I'm done with video proc until there's no review - I'm pretty sure these Denons will use the latest Faroudjas and I'm convinced they will be miles better than the old ones...
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post #113 of 1382 Old 05-26-2008, 11:50 AM
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You cant compare the amp on an AVR and the Rotel dedicated 2ch amps like RB-1050 or 1070. I guess the amps on most mass market mid level AVR's are all pretty much similar, typically 80-90w. No one is superior to the other.

Unless I pay some $1500 I cant get an AVR that uses toroidal transformers. All mass market low/mid end AVRs use the inferior EI-core transformers. Also I dont care about toroidal transformers for all 7 channels when my main interest is 2ch music. So to me it makes a lot of sense to get a low/mid end AVR that has pre-outs and then get the separates. I dont have to spend a fortune to get the Rotel separates. RB-1070 costs $699 and dealers always give 10% off. So if I spend $499 on the Yamaha 663, I get all the processing power of the AVR and I also get to use it as a pre-pro instead of spending $1500 on Integra DTC 9.8.

Sure there are people who dont care about the pre-outs.

If you are using speakers like Dynaudio Audience 72, then you would realize that a 80-90w AVR isnt enough to drive such speakers. Speakers like those need separates for more power. Like I said before I dont want to spend $1500 to get just a pre-pro like Integra DTC 9.8 or even the cheaper emotiva. I dont mind using inferior amps for movies as I care less about the sound quality for movies. I just want a good 2ch system.

So to me using the AVR for both HT and pre-pro and getting a dedicated 2ch amp is the best solution.

If the mid level Denons are not going to offer the pre-outs fine I am not going to buy them :-) I can get the Yamaha 663 for $359 now. Why would I bother to get the 1909 for $649 and still not have pre-outs or 12V trigger. It is a nobrainer to get the 663. I rest my care here and will wait for some specs on the 1909.
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post #114 of 1382 Old 05-26-2008, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

You cant compare the amp on an AVR and the Rotel dedicated 2ch amps like RB-1050 or 1070. I guess the amps on most mass market mid level AVR's are all pretty much similar, typically 80-90w. No one is superior to the other.

Unless I pay some $1500 I cant get an AVR that uses toroidal transformers. All mass market low/mid end AVRs use the inferior EI-core transformers. Also I dont care about toroidal transformers for all 7 channels when my main interest is 2ch music. So to me it makes a lot of sense to get a low/mid end AVR that has pre-outs and then get the separates. I dont have to spend a fortune to get the Rotel separates. RB-1070 costs $699 and dealers always give 10% off. So if I spend $499 on the Yamaha 663, I get all the processing power of the AVR and I also get to use it as a pre-pro instead of spending $1500 on Integra DTC 9.8.

Sure there are people who dont care about the pre-outs.

If you are using speakers like Dynaudio Audience 72, then you would realize that a 80-90w AVR isnt enough to drive such speakers. Speakers like those need separates for more power. Like I said before I dont want to spend $1500 to get just a pre-pro like Integra DTC 9.8 or even the cheaper emotiva. I dont mind using inferior amps for movies as I care less about the sound quality for movies. I just want a good 2ch system.

So to me using the AVR for both HT and pre-pro and getting a dedicated 2ch amp is the best solution.

If the mid level Denons are not going to offer the pre-outs fine I am not going to buy them :-) I can get the Yamaha 663 for $359 now. Why would I bother to get the 1909 for $649 and still not have pre-outs or 12V trigger. It is a nobrainer to get the 663. I rest my care here and will wait for some specs on the 1909.

I have my doubts that Denon will offer pre outs on the 1909, seems all they did was a minor addition of additional HDMI ports. (utilized unused space on back panel)

Yamaha model 663 and up has pre-amp outputs with 12v trigger, so does the Pioneer VSX-01TXH and up. (two lowest elite models lack phono input)

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post #115 of 1382 Old 05-26-2008, 03:28 PM
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Mupi: If 2 channel music is so important, why would you use low-mid fi AVRs as the processor?

EI transformers have different qualities. Yamaha's mid-fi offerings feature lower quality transformers than similar Denons. Circuit City has a two channel amp featuring toroidal transformer for less than $100. Remember that EI transformers are not "inferior", they are less efficient.
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post #116 of 1382 Old 05-27-2008, 06:29 AM
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post #117 of 1382 Old 05-27-2008, 07:26 AM
 
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Rather than use the poor video processing on any AVR or any TV, just use the video processing on the HTPC connected to the AVR. The video card is dedicated to such a task - one of its primary purposes is to output at a specific resolution and frequency. Video cards have been doing it quite well for quite some time.
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post #118 of 1382 Old 05-27-2008, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omirp View Post

New Denons pre-order for the early birds.

There's only one problem, this is not a authorized Denon online e-tailer. So Denon won't honor their 2 year warranty if something breaks. See this link for online dealers.

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post #119 of 1382 Old 05-27-2008, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Rather than use the poor video processing on any AVR or any TV, just use the video processing on the HTPC connected to the AVR. The video card is dedicated to such a task - one of its primary purposes is to output at a specific resolution and frequency. Video cards have been doing it quite well for quite some time.

Err, no, VGA cards are usually rather low-quality video scalers.
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post #120 of 1382 Old 05-27-2008, 09:24 AM
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There's only one problem, this is not a authorized Denon online e-tailer. So Denon won't honor their 2 year warranty if something breaks. See this link for online dealers.

Yeah and these guys won't have it earlier than July either. OTOH the notion of "authorized" reseller always disgusted me - it's nothing but an effin' price control tool, to make sure you pay more, that you'll feed their supply chain, that's it.

HK or Yamaha always honor any warranty as long as you have a standard receipt, issued by a business and it's within warranty period.
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