Are any Denon AVC-A1SE/5800 (Upgraded) using multi-digital coax inputs? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 19 Old 06-15-2008, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
mgoldsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 212
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi All,

I have the Denon AVC-A1SE (known in the USA as the 5800 i believe) which was includes the upgrade modules.

Has anyone with either of these upgraded amps tried out the following scenario with the mult-channel coax digital input assignment feature?
As i'd love to know.... basically, i've worked around my requirement (....okay, obsessive desire ) for buying a new amp for that little bit longer, as so long as the BD player can internally decode the necessary audio formats, and output them via 6/8ch analogue, it's a keeper in my opinion.

Seeing as these particular models offer zero bass management/input delay with the 8ch analogue inputs, my HD/BD playback has been impaired a little due to the need to rely on the HD players internal bass management...and the fact that there's a sync delay between audio and video within my system (due to the video processor slowing video down).

However, just yesterday i realised that this denon model allows you to take the first 4 coax inputs and assign them to become 4 x 2ch of PCM multi-channel digital inputs....ie upto 8 channels of simultaneous digital surround sound....perfect for 6ch to 8ch HD uncompressed audio playback.

- What i did was take the 6 channels of analogue out from my BD player and paired off these channels into L+R & C+LFE & SL+SR.

- Each pair is then feed into their own stereo RCA to PCM (via digital coax) converter box (which i got from jaycar, in australia)

- I then connected the coax leads from each converter box into the amp's coax 1,2,3 inputs respectively

- And activated the Dig-multi input via the Amps OSD (it's within the same menu as the activation for Denon-Link).

Now i have FULL bassmanagement and input time delay (of upto 200 ms) for multi-channel digital input from the analogue outputs of my BD player!!.

The only sound issue i now have is the occasional pop and crackle, so i guess the next step is the test it out with some different cables to see if it helps.

Until i came to the realisation of this amp's feature, i was pretty set on buying one of the Gefen audio processors to take HDMI audio and split it into 8ch analogue RCA (assuming it includes decent bass management and time delays).

Any feedback on this setup would be greatly appreciated.

Matt Goldsmith
DVDown Under
mgoldsmith is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 Old 06-15-2008, 08:01 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,384
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 115
That's similar to what I do with an Oppo player using 3xS/PDIF to feed the Meridian REf 861. See this: http://www.switch-box.com/3x_S_PDIF_...put_Board.html

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #3 of 19 Old 06-15-2008, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
mgoldsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 212
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That's similar to what I do with an Oppo player using 3xS/PDIF to feed the Meridian REf 861. See this: http://www.switch-box.com/3x_S_PDIF_...put_Board.html

oh very nice indeed! certainly offers a considerably cleaner install.. i've got cables and boxes running everywhere at the moment .
keeping the audio in the digital domain would be a bonus to.

it's great to see there are work arounds available for this dilema

Matt Goldsmith
DVDown Under
mgoldsmith is offline  
post #4 of 19 Old 10-05-2008, 05:15 PM
Newbie
 
ostra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a Denon KAVC-A1SE myself and i'm looking at building a HTPC......no hdmi is making it hard.
Thought denon-link might be helpful.
If they did bring out an upgrade like the "k" one....how much would it cost

It would still be cheaper....??

Might have to get a stand alone blu-ray player .........more$$$$$$$$$$

Aussie here to
ostra is offline  
post #5 of 19 Old 11-28-2008, 03:51 AM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That's similar to what I do with an Oppo player using 3xS/PDIF to feed the Meridian REf 861. See this: http://www.switch-box.com/3x_S_PDIF_...put_Board.html

I just saw this thread, although posted during summer time.

What a brilliant idea this is! I understand that what mgoldsmith has done is the A/D conversion of the analog outputs into a S/PDIF signal through a multi stereo A/D converter.

Is this correct?

However what Kal proposes is an extension of a single S/PDIF output to a multi one.

Unless I understood it wrongly.

I sent an email to www.switch-box.com, asking them if they can provide an analog multichannel (8-channel) A/D converter with a four S/PDIF digital output.

Kal, do you think they can?

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #6 of 19 Old 11-28-2008, 01:07 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,384
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panayotis Melas View Post

I just saw this thread, although posted during summer time.

What a brilliant idea this is! I understand that what mgoldsmith has done is the A/D conversion of the analog outputs into a S/PDIF signal through a multi stereo A/D converter.

Is this correct?

However what Kal proposes is an extension of a single S/PDIF output to a multi one.

Unless I understood it wrongly.

I sent an email to www.switch-box.com, asking them if they can provide an analog multichannel (8-channel) A/D converter with a four S/PDIF digital output.

Kal, do you think they can?

Yes but it depends on the component to be modified. Ask Shawn. He is a straight-shooter.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #7 of 19 Old 11-29-2008, 02:35 AM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yes but it depends on the component to be modified. Ask Shawn. He is a straight-shooter.

Thanks, Kal

(I keep reading you without a miss in Stereophile, since I am a subscriber for almost 20 years, now).

When you say "Shawn", do you mean "A/V Shawn" of this forum? Or somebody else?

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #8 of 19 Old 11-29-2008, 02:39 AM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sorry, Kal for asking you about Shawn.

I just saw his emailed reply to me.

Thanks again!

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #9 of 19 Old 11-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A question for the moderator:

This question may seem stupid, therefore accept my apologies in advance.

Here it is:

Before posting in this thread, I realized the last post before me was on October 6, 2008.

After my posting, the thread went up in the list of this forum and then it disappeared. The same happened again and again. After a new posting, not only from me, it remains on top (or near the top) and next day it disappears. I have to find it by the search engine.

Is it normal? Am I missing anything?

Thanks

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #10 of 19 Old 11-29-2008, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoldsmith View Post

Hi All,
.......However, just yesterday i realised that this denon model allows you to take the first 4 coax inputs and assign them to become 4 x 2ch of PCM multi-channel digital inputs....ie upto 8 channels of simultaneous digital surround sound....perfect for 6ch to 8ch HD uncompressed audio playback.

- What i did was take the 6 channels of analogue out from my BD player and paired off these channels into L+R & C+LFE & SL+SR.

- Each pair is then feed into their own stereo RCA to PCM (via digital coax) converter box (which i got from jaycar, in australia)

- I then connected the coax leads from each converter box into the amp's coax 1,2,3 inputs respectively

- And activated the Dig-multi input via the Amps OSD (it's within the same menu as the activation for Denon-Link).

Now i have FULL bassmanagement and input time delay (of upto 200 ms) for multi-channel digital input from the analogue outputs of my BD player!!.........

Matt, good morning

I have just sent you a PM regarding this matter

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #11 of 19 Old 12-19-2008, 05:48 AM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Finally, and after an extensive search, I followed Kal's advice and I ordered a converter (HDMI-to-4 SPDIF) to Shawn.

It is only a matter of time to see if this proves "Heaven on Earth"

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #12 of 19 Old 01-13-2009, 02:27 AM
Member
 
kdp99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Southampton,Hants,UK
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Can you use THX Ultra II to create a surround back channel from a 5.1 source with the digital multi-channel inputs as you can with a normal optical input ?

Many thanks
kdp99 is offline  
post #13 of 19 Old 01-22-2009, 12:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdp99 View Post

Can you use THX Ultra II to create a surround back channel from a 5.1 source with the digital multi-channel inputs as you can with a normal optical input ?

Many thanks

First of all, we need to point out that the coaxial inputs are equal with the optical ones, since they are both digital.

But using of the multi-channel digital input is a new concept and a new domain in this series of the Denons.

As it is mentioned above (perhaps not so clearly), this input consists of 4 coaxial jacks, that have to work simultaneously, with No. 1 input ALWAYS active. If No. 1 input is not active, the MultiCh input simply does not work. Also, all four (or perhaps the three) of them must be fed by a multi-channel digital signal, coming from the same source and controlled by the same Master Clock.

The main reason that the user needs to utilize this input is the use of an already decoded Hi-Resolution (HD) digital signal in an LPCM form, as this can come out from an HD player (Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) HDMI output.

In order to get this signal from an HD player - other than its HDMI output - you need a special converter box (unit), which "transforms" the HD digital signal from its HDMI route to a 4 stereo coaxial one. By this way, you can feed the 4 jacks of the Denon with a full HD 7.1 digital signal, devided into 4 stereo ones as:
- No. 1 jack -> Front Left + Right
- No. 2 jack -> Front Center + Subwoofer
- No. 3 jack -> Surround Left + Right
- No. 4 jack -> Back Surround Left + Right (if existing in the disc material).

I would not send this HD (Hi-Resolution) digital signal to the MultiCh input, even if this is not a 7.1, but a 5.1 one, to down-convert it into a Dolby Prologic 7.1 one, simply because this way the signal may be compressed and therefore it may loose its HD characteristics.

For any other user, who might be interested, I have ordered such a unit to Shawn of www.switch-box.com, after experimenting with my A1SE, in order to determine which digital input is for which channels.

This unit is called CLUX and it is something like this:

http://www.switch-box.com/S_PDIF_ins...CLUX-11SA.html

or better like this:

http://softronix.com/pictures/clux/IMG_2977_SMALL.JPG

In order to be sure what I had to order, I did the following experiment:

Since I was suspecting that the coaxial inputs 2,3 and 4 remained inactive, even if the user has chosen to activate the MultiCh Digital In, if there is no signal at input No. 1, I did the following connections:
- I took a well known Y-Adapter (One RCA Male-Two RCA females), same like the Radio Shack Gold-Plated Audio Y-Adapter (http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2103638) and I plugged it in Input No. 1.
- Then I connected a coaxial digital cable from my DVD coaxial SPDIF output to the one female end of the Y-Adapter, thus feeding the Input No. 1 with a PCM stereo digital signal.
- Then, I connected another coaxial cable to the other female end of the Y-Adapter and from there to No. 2 Input of the amplifier.
- I played a Test DVD, providing White Noise, Pink Noise and sine signal of various frequencies. By this, I could feed both inputs together with a PCM signal, keeping No. 1 Input active. I repeated this test, by changing the second cable from No. 2 Input to No. 3 and to No. 4.
- During these changings I tried to listen to my speakers, to see from which channels the sound was coming out.
- The test revealed that if No. 1 input is active, then the input signals correspond to the following channels:
No. 1 Input: L+R Front
No. 2 Input: Center Front + Subwoofer
No. 3 Input: L+R Surround
No. 4 Input: L+R Surround Back (or Effect, as it is marked on the amplifier)

The following preconditions are necessary:
1) The signals must be LPCM, up to 192 kHz -24bit
2) No. 1 Input must always be active
3) MultiCh Digital In has to be activated from the amplifier menu (see above).
4) All four stereo digital SPDIF signals must be controlled by the same Master Clock, i.e. from the same digital source.

By this, any source that can give the user a MultiCh Digital signal, can be connected to this input and allow the amplifier to handle and process the signals, as one source and as it does with the other common digital signals (DD, DTS, MPEG etc.)

After this test, and of course after consulting swith-box.com once more, I ordered the CLUX. Unfortunately, I am not able to test it with my A1SE right now because I am abroad, until the beginning of April, when I expect to return home.

Till then, I only have to wait.

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #14 of 19 Old 02-02-2009, 06:49 AM
Member
 
kdp99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Southampton,Hants,UK
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks Panayotis

I have the upgraded Denon and am thinking of getting a blue ray player and this box to get the HD audio into the Denon. There are a few things I'd love to ask, but I will wait till you get back home in April and have a play.

KDP
kdp99 is offline  
post #15 of 19 Old 06-14-2009, 10:39 AM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It has really been a long time since I posted in this thread about Shawn Fogg's brilliant CLUX-11SA HDMI-to-SPDIF converter, but unfortunately I was abroad and I did not have access to it until recently.

Well, I returned back home just before the middle of May and after setting the unit in the system, I tried to test it in all respects, to see if it meets my needs.

First of all, a few pictures of it:









The CLUX was connected to my system as follows:

1) 1.8m HDMI cable from my Panasonic BD-55 BD player HDMI output to No. 1 HDMI input of a 3x2 HDMI Switcher from e-bay

2) 1.8m HDMI cable from my Toshiba HD-XE1 HD-DVD player HDMI output to No. 2 HDMI input of the above 3x2 Switcher.

3) 1.5m HDMI cable from No. 1 HDMI output of the above switcher to the HDMI input of the CLUX

4) 10m HDMI cable from CLUX HDMI output to my JVC DLA-RS2 Projector No. 1 HDMI input.

or

4) 10m HDMI cable from CLUX HDMI output to my Toshiba TMP-MT700 Projector HDMI input. The latter one had to be kept temporarily disconnected, unti all tests with the JVC were finished.

Eventually, I also tried to insert an HDMI splitter or a second HDMI switcher between the CLUX and the projectors, something that worked OK, although the locking of the signal takes longer like this.

Then I played a bonus Blu-Ray disc, with a 7.1 LPCM (or DTS-MA) sound material (it's called Ambra Blu-Ray Experience, and it came with a Greek AV magazine), good enough to see if the system works. In fact, at the beginning I had trouble listening to 7.1 sound, because the sound tracks of the disc were in a hidden menu, which had a Dolby Digital 5.1 track selected by default. But when I found out the other sound tracks, then the 7.1 sound came out flawlessly.

The sound was wonderful. Far better that what I was used to hear from movies with compressed Dolby Digital or even DTS sound (OK, some discs have well recorded tracks, indeed, but don't blame me for my excitement).

I had been warned by Shawn that I may face an EDID problem between the CLUX and my projector, but the test proved that both units were fully communicating.

However, when I turned the test set-up to my secondary projector (the Toshiba), the EDID problem showed up. I was only getting a stereo (2-ch) sound instead of a multi channel one.

Shawn has advised me that a Gefen HDMI Detective Plus device has to be inserted in the signal chain to correct the problem.

I will try to borrow one to test it, although I may not need it, since my Toshiba is going to be used primarily for Sat and TV sports shows and eventually for DVD viewing, therefore even a component connection can do the job, while these sources don't need an HDMI connection for multi channel sound.

Keith, you have a PM for this test.

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #16 of 19 Old 06-18-2009, 04:55 AM
Newbie
 
Oortmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello,

just to make shure, what do I have to order if I want to connect a hdmi-device to my Denon AVR 5803 (=A1 SRA)? It is not the standard Clux-11SA,
it is a modified version by switchbox, right? Where can I order this?

Best regards,
Holger Oortmann
Oortmann is offline  
post #17 of 19 Old 06-19-2009, 05:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Panayotis Melas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kallithea, Athens, Greece
Posts: 282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oortmann View Post

Hello,

just to make shure, what do I have to order if I want to connect a hdmi-device to my Denon AVR 5803 (=A1 SRA)? It is not the standard Clux-11SA,
it is a modified version by switchbox, right? Where can I order this?

Best regards,
Holger Oortmann

You are right Holger, this is not the standard CLUX-11SA. The standard version offers ONLY multi channel ANALOG output.

Mine DOES NOT have any analog outputs at all. It is an HDMI-to-SPDIF Digital Converter. It gives a multi-channel Digital Output into 4 SPDIF RCA jacks.

You can talk to Shawn Fogg (AVSforum name: sfogg) and his web site is: www.switch-box.com.

Hope I helped

Technology helps you live better. Don't live for technology
Panayotis Melas is offline  
post #18 of 19 Old 06-23-2009, 12:11 PM
Newbie
 
Oortmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello Panayotis,

thank you for that quick answer.

Best regards,
Holger
Oortmann is offline  
post #19 of 19 Old 06-29-2009, 10:00 AM
Member
 
kdp99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Southampton,Hants,UK
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Folks,

I contacted the UK supplier of the unmodifed CLUX to see if they would sell the modifed one, the answer was perhaps.

I've copied the email below, any others interested might want to drop them an email.

KDP

Thanks for your enquiry.

At the present time we only sell the standard version, the product in
the link you have included appears to be of a standard version which has
been privately modified by someone.

We are currently looking into being able to supply a version with
digital PCM but we must first find out if it is practical and warranty
supportable.

Best Regards,
Ben Craig
ben.craig@lektropacks.com
kdp99 is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off