*Official* Denon AVR 2309CI/889 Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 3197 Old 10-26-2008, 02:53 PM
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Does anyone know what the fader vol is?

You can get to the option by pressing ch sel/enter repeatedly.

I don't see it anywhere in other options or mentioned in the manual.

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post #632 of 3197 Old 10-26-2008, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

By the way do you sleep with the Denon 1909 manual under your pillow?

ha! no, I don't even own a 1909! but I've owned a lot of Denon receivers at this point (3803, 2105, 1905, 2307ci, and now 888) and have set up some others.

The thing is, most of these issues aren't 1909/789 issues so much as general Denon-related confusions or common misunderstandings about new technology (HDMI, audio codecs). The 1909/789 (outside of Audyssey features and HDMI) operates pretty much exactly the same as the six-year-old 3803 model. Same GUI (although they re-arranged the menus a bit), same basic options (like "LFE/LFE+Main", "EXT-In subwoofer level", assigning inputs, etc).

And Denon has been writing terrible manuals for YEARS now, so I've already struggled through things like figuring out what the LFE+Main setting really means, understanding Denon's bass management scheme, Direct vs Stereo modes, etc etc. And so, even though I haven't read the 1909 manual, I know exactly where Denon probably buried it in the manual because it's not that different from the 2105 manual or the 2307ci manual, and can find it really fast. Plus, a lot of times I can see where the person is having their mental block because I went through that exact thing before so I just try to explain it better...

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post #633 of 3197 Old 10-28-2008, 11:57 PM
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I am trying to figure out the best settings for my new (used) setup!

My setup:

Fronts: Paradigm Monitor 5 v4
Center: Paradigm CC-370 v4
Rears: Paradgm Mini-Monitor v4
Subwoofer: Paradigm PDR-10 v3
Receiver: Denon AVR-889 (2309ci)

I ran the Audyssey EQ auto setup and it did a few things I don't fully understand with the crossovers.

It set all speakers to small except the Monitor 5s, which are set to large.
It set the crossovers at the following:
Monitor 5: 40Hz (Paradigm says as low as 34Hz)
CC-370: 80Hz (Paradigm says as low as 40Hz)
Mini-Monitor: 40Hz (Paradigm says as low as 57Hz)

It also set the subwoofer to: 100Hz.

Now what I don't understand is why the fronts are set to large, but still have a crossover of 40Hz? Does this mean they still send anything below 40Hz to the subwoofer? If so, what is the point of setting a speaker to small or large? Do movies send sound lower than 40hz to the Front L/R speakers?

Why does the subwoofer have a crossover? The receiver won't send anything above 100hz, correct?
So unless I have a speaker crossover above 100Hz, this setting doesn't matter?

Thanks for the help!

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post #634 of 3197 Old 10-29-2008, 01:36 AM
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Does anyone know if the Australian build of the 2309 has pre-outs like the UK build or is the same as the US build?
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post #635 of 3197 Old 10-29-2008, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaggeto View Post

It set all speakers to small except the Monitor 5s, which are set to large.
It set the crossovers at the following:
Monitor 5: 40Hz (Paradigm says as low as 34Hz)
CC-370: 80Hz (Paradigm says as low as 40Hz)
Mini-Monitor: 40Hz (Paradigm says as low as 57Hz)

It also set the subwoofer to: 100Hz.

Now what I don't understand is why the fronts are set to large, but still have a crossover of 40Hz? Does this mean they still send anything below 40Hz to the subwoofer? If so, what is the point of setting a speaker to small or large? Do movies send sound lower than 40hz to the Front L/R speakers?

Why does the subwoofer have a crossover? The receiver won't send anything above 100hz, correct?

Vaggeto -

1. The whole point of Audyssey is to compensate for acoustics of your specific room, and due to those acoustics the calculated -3dB point (where Audyssey sets its crossover) could be above or below the manufacturer's specs. Audyssey is just reporting the results of its measurements.

Anyway, it is a known issue that Audyssey will sometimes set the crossovers too low, and it is in fact encouraged to raise up your crossovers a bit, and set speakers to SMALL, as few speakers are that effective below 80Hz.

As a starting point, I would probably raise your Monitor 5's to 60Hz and change them to SMALL, leave the center at 80Hz, and raise the surrounds to 80Hz. Tweak if necessary from there...

2. The subwoofer crossover is a low-pass filter for LFE signals, it doesn't have much to do with the bass management (it just "tops off" the LFE signals from multichannel soundtracks) so don't worry about it. Most people recommend raising it to 110 or 120Hz just to allow more room for LFE.

3. Even if a speaker is set to LARGE, it is assigned a crossover frequency because if you set your sub to LFE+MAIN the subwoofer will "double up" the bass on speakers set to LARGE. Again, you should probably just set them to SMALL manually.

Pretty much all of your questions are common Audyssey issues and you'd be well served to read through the first 20 pages and the most recent 10-20 pages of the official Audyssey thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421

Also read this step-by-step write-up on setting up Audyssey, compiled here at AVS... it covers the crossover issues very well:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

And here is the Audyssey FAQ from Audyssey:
http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html

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post #636 of 3197 Old 10-30-2008, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wampy1234 View Post

Does anyone know if the Australian build of the 2309 has pre-outs like the UK build or is the same as the US build?

Nevermind this, picked up the receiver last night and it has pre-outs
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post #637 of 3197 Old 10-30-2008, 07:12 PM
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Just a couple questions here from a noobie:

Are there any concerns with gray market Denon receivers? I'm looking to upgrade from a HTB (I know, I know- but I didn't know anything at the time)and want to know if I go with the cheapest retailer, will there be any warranty/quality issues? Does it need to be purchased from a authorized dealer for the warranty to be honored? If there are any of the above issues, where is the cheapest price to be had at the moment? Are these kinds of items part of Black Friday deals? Thanks for any help.
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post #638 of 3197 Old 10-30-2008, 11:10 PM
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Can this unit drive HDMI out and component out simultaneously? Same signal wanted on both. The component is a long run to another room.

Seems like it would be a common question but all my searching couldn't find it ...
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post #639 of 3197 Old 10-31-2008, 12:06 AM
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clsund - Denon is very rigid about their warranty policies, only valid for original owner (with proof of purchase) and only from authorized dealers. as far as repair issues, Denons are very reliable, I have bought many a used Denon and never any issues (other than one I caused myself :embarrassed

lordbah - yes both are active but you cannot output HDMI inputs to component out

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post #640 of 3197 Old 10-31-2008, 12:40 AM
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Thanks Batpig. Who then are authorized dealers?

and my other question, are these kinds of receivers the subject of Black Friday deals?
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post #641 of 3197 Old 10-31-2008, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

lordbah - yes both are active but you cannot output HDMI inputs to component out

Thanks. But ouch. My current receiver is too old for HDMI. The DirecTv HR21 is feeding both TVs. Which means I can only watch that source in the second room, not the other DVR or DVD. I was hoping to be able to improve on that with a new receiver. It sounds like that's only possible with this receiver if I use component for all inputs.
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post #642 of 3197 Old 10-31-2008, 10:06 AM
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yeah, pretty much no receiver will downconvert HDMI to component out, it's a digital copyright protection thing...

clsund - authorized dealers are listed on Denon's website! J&R is an authorized dealer who tends to have very good prices and is used a lot by forum members, and I have no idea bout BF deals, sorry, this isn't really a deals site anyway.

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post #643 of 3197 Old 11-02-2008, 12:57 AM
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I'm having an issue with my new setup where at volume levels arround -4.0db or higher that I get an audio crack or pop at specific points in some movies, if I lower the speaker volume a little then it doesn't make the noise but It's seems odd that I'd get this noise at what I think should be a completely acceptable volume level for my setup, the movies it happened on had a DTS audio track and a DTS HD MA track.

I'm running the 2309 currently only in a 2.1 setup with B&W 685 mains & an energy ESW-V8 sub, any idea's? I'm temporarily using speakers that were floor stock at the retailer as new ones weren't in stock yet, so the speakers are atleast broken in.

Any idea's, could this be a speaker fault?

Edit: Just tested one of the problem scene's and it actually was happening as low as -7.0db and when adjusted to -8.0db the pop noise went away.

Update: Turned off the sub and the audio pop wen't away even while testing at very high volume, will play with the sub settings to see what I can do to elimate the problem, could someone recommend me settings on phase and Low pass filter?? - also i've set my speakers to small in the AVR settings.
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post #644 of 3197 Old 11-02-2008, 04:18 AM
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After doing a bit of a reading around the forums I think it's just that my sub is bottoming out and can't handle the bass at such volumes, turning down the volume on the sub has fixed the issue but I'm gonna talk to the sales rep when I pick up my 685's (to replace the temp stock ones) about maybe swapping for the ESW-v10 so I can get that extra bass without the complications.
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post #645 of 3197 Old 11-02-2008, 08:33 PM
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Alright picked up one of these yesterday. Having had Denon in the past they have not learned anything in design. The display still sucks compared to other brands. From a distance it's very hard to read. Also has that luminescent glow to it and not very sharp. 2nd thing is the remote. What a piece of garbage. I think an 8 year old designed this back in 85'. Other than that the sound is great and the HDMI handshaking is working great too which is what I bought it for. Do the Harmony remotes work well with newer Denon's?
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post #646 of 3197 Old 11-02-2008, 09:23 PM
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Haha couldn't agree more about the horrible OSD and remote design, especially the inputs layout :'(
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post #647 of 3197 Old 11-02-2008, 09:29 PM
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Harmony's work great with all Denons, their codes haven't changed much in years (although you may need to teach a few codes from the factory remote). I have been using the Harmony profile for my old AVR 2105 with an AVR 3803, 1906, 2307ci, and now my current 888. It was much easier to just keep it and teach it a command or two now and then rather than add a whole new device each time I swapped receivers.

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post #648 of 3197 Old 11-03-2008, 07:57 AM
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Alright just bought a Harmony One.
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post #649 of 3197 Old 11-03-2008, 10:26 AM
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You can't access tone controls (bass/treble) when Dynamic EQ is on, because it is constantly managing the EQ, trying to maintain the "reference" that was established during setup. If you want to adjust the global bass/treble, turn off Dynamic EQ, and then just use the tone controls in the PARAMETERS menu. When you reengage Dynamic EQ, it will now try to maintain this as your "reference" setting.

The rumbly bass is generally an issue with how networks master their TV programs. If it only happens on TV shows, and movies/music sound fine, you may just want to use the CH SELECT/ENTER button to quickly drop the sub a few dB's for those annoying TV programs. If it's a global issue with rumbly bass, just go into the MANUAL SETUP menu, and adjust the channel trims so the SUBWOOFER channel is down a few dB's in the global setting.

Audyssey always sets the subwoofer "hot" on my setup for some reason on my AVR 888, so after running it I always go into the manual channel levels and bump down the sub down 2-3 dB.

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post #650 of 3197 Old 11-03-2008, 10:44 AM
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I ran Audyssey for the first time this weekend and all seems well except for the low crossover it set for my L/R main speakers. It set my Axiom M2i's at 40Hz (Axiom only rates them down to 60Hz) so I wanted to change the crossover to 80Hz (as I have read is recommended to do). That said, I went in and manually made the change, but how do I "store" it so when I turn "Audyssey" on the crossover is at 80Hz for the L/R main speakers? It appears that when I turn "Audyssey" on and check the speaker crossovers it's still using 40Hz. Any help would be greatly appreaciated!
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post #651 of 3197 Old 11-03-2008, 12:14 PM
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just make the changes in MANUAL SETUP and it will work, you don't need to do anything to store them. the settings in the AUTO SETUP menu are just a report of what Audyssey found in it's auto calibration, they will never change unless you re-run Audyssey. any changes you make in MANUAL SETUP, like raising crossovers, will override the Audyssey settings.

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post #652 of 3197 Old 11-03-2008, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

just make the changes in MANUAL SETUP and it will work, you don't need to do anything to store them. the settings in the AUTO SETUP menu are just a report of what Audyssey found in it's auto calibration, they will never change unless you re-run Audyssey. any changes you make in MANUAL SETUP, like raising crossovers, will override the Audyssey settings.

Thanks batpig! Knowing Denon, I figured it couldn't be that easy...
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post #653 of 3197 Old 11-04-2008, 03:30 PM
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I have the Denon 2309 receiver and just noticed the speakers I purchased have an Impedance: 4 Ohms. Wow, do I have an issue here? What can I do or do I need to get another receiver. I do not want to change the speakers out.

Mike
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post #654 of 3197 Old 11-05-2008, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelmonkey View Post

I have the Denon 2309 receiver and just noticed the speakers I purchased have an Impedance: 4 Ohms. Wow, do I have an issue here? What can I do or do I need to get another receiver. I do not want to change the speakers out.
Mike

You'll find some pretty hi-tech & interesting discussion if you AVF search: Denon 4 ohm. Also try searching on your particular speakers.
Other factors that matter:
1 Speakers: sensitivity, brand/model & how many?
2 Do you have a powered sub?
Other factors that might matter:
Big room? Will you be running at reference levels for considerable periods?

Does anyone know what the "Low Impedance Drive Capability" on the 2309 signifies?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #655 of 3197 Old 11-05-2008, 10:09 AM
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It means that, in theory, you should be fine. All speakers have peaks/dips in their impedance curves, so you can't just look at the nominal spec (8 or 6 or 4) and draw any conclusions.

SoundofMind made some good points (sensitivity, volume, setting speakers as "small" crossed over to a sub) about the many potential variables. Best thing to do is try it out in normal use and see if you have any issues, watch a movie, play some music, have the receiver engaged for a few hours and see how hot it gets. If it has any issues it will just engage the protection circuit and shut itself off (you will see the green circle around the power button blink orange).

Unless you are cranking the volume super loud for hours at a time in a big room, I doubt you'll have any issues.

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post #656 of 3197 Old 11-05-2008, 10:53 AM
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you shouldn't have to do anything, the default HDMI Video settings (found in the MANUAL SETUP menu) are to have video conversion enabled, with the Denon upscaling analog inputs to HDMI output at the highest resolution your TV accepts.

basically, it's on unless you manually turn it off. have you even tried it yet? put your LCD TV on the HDMI input, and then select the Dish DVR input and it should appear.

this has nothing to do with the "assign" function, that's only for assigning inputs as you've found.

check out the 1st post of the 1909/789 thread, in the FAQ I discuss the HDMI settings and how to make sure video conversion it on (again, though, unless you changed something it should be on by default).

pg 32 of the manual discusses general HDMI settings (leave these on default unless you have a specific reason). pg 39-40 discusses the video conversion setup, which is independent by input. again, if you leave these on defaults you should be good to go.

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post #657 of 3197 Old 11-05-2008, 11:29 PM
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Anybody have a Harmony profile to load up? This setup sucks with the inputs.
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post #658 of 3197 Old 11-06-2008, 05:52 AM
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Basically, you are telling me I should keep the front speakers as small when running a sub??? I will change it from what the Denon placed it at (Large) and see what happens. While on the subject, I am running a sub, (DT SCube II). Should I leave it on LFE or LFE Main? Thanks for the replies and suggestions. The receiver gets pretty warm after running all day but not smoking hot. Will see how she runs in the next couple days.
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post #659 of 3197 Old 11-06-2008, 10:24 AM
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setting your speakers to "small" means that, below the crossover freq., the Denon will cut off the low freq's which generally require much more power to drive. instead, the subwoofer and its dedicated amplifier will be powering those tough loads. the idea being that it eases the load on the receiver (making it less likely you will have issues with the 4ohm speakers) and also allows the subwoofer to do what it does best, reproduce the lows.

if your receiver isn't getting that hot then it's probably fine.

the "small/large" setting recommended by Audyssey isn't absolute, it doesn't actually even make the "decision", that's done by the receiver based on what Audyssey reports in its measurements. if you read the Audyssey information they recommend setting your speakers to small anyway.

read this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

at the bottom it notes:
Quote:
Note 1: Audyssey does not set the crossovers; it simply measures the -3dB frequency point of each speaker. This information is passed to the receiver / processor for calculation of the speaker settings and crossover points, if applicable. Unfortunately, Audyssey does not report the -3dB frequency point measured for each speaker. The only information available to you is whether or not the speaker was designated “Large” or “Small”, and any crossover point selected for “Small” speakers.

Receiver / processor manufacturers use a specific Frequency Decision Point (FDP) to classify speakers as “Large” (full-range) or “Small” (less than full-range). The selection of the FDP varies among manufacturers, and may be 40 Hz, 80 Hz, or another frequency. If the -3 dB frequency measured by Audyssey is below the FDP, the speaker is classified as “Large’. If the -3 dB frequency measured by Audyssey is above the FDP, the speaker is classified as “Small”, and a crossover frequency is selected.


here's an explanation I gave on another thread about LFE+Main:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...n#post14460809

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post #660 of 3197 Old 11-06-2008, 10:35 AM
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Makes sense to me now. Thanks for all the info. I appreciate it. Still learning on this receiver...not sure if i really like it. Too much to screw with and to try and figure out. What happened to the old 'set up and run' receivers?
One thing I have noticed is that for such an impressive receiver, the instruction manual fails to pass the test. Either that, or I failed reading.
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Denon Avr 2309ci Receiver
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