"Official" Denon AVR 2809CI/989 Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 5682 Old 08-21-2008, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bayboy911 View Post

How is the upconversion? Any one heard the difference between the 3808 and the 2809? Looks like you can pick up the 3808 for less at dakmart.

Its OK for analog upconversion using the good "old" FL-2310 video chip. But if your display does a better job you can always disable this for any analog input source.

You can take a look at this 2809 versus 3808 thread that might help you. The AVR-2809 supports the new Dynamic Voice and Dynamic EQ via the receivers front panel or touch remote right out of the box.

DAKmart is only authorized to sell Factory Reconditioned or B-Stock Only on Denon's web page.

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post #62 of 5682 Old 08-21-2008, 12:20 PM
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Any 2308 or 2809 in Best Buy? I'm on the verge of returning my 354 and it would be a lot easier if I could just exchange it for another AVR...
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post #63 of 5682 Old 08-21-2008, 01:27 PM
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None here in Kansas. Going be waiting til they get them in. Have been looking at the pio 1018, but leaning more to the Denon.
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post #64 of 5682 Old 08-21-2008, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Any 2308 or 2809 in Best Buy? I'm on the verge of returning my 354 and it would be a lot easier if I could just exchange it for another AVR...

2309CI = Sku #8853957 with an $849.98 price and a 9/4/08 availability. But BB staff has problems when checking stock using their system.
I expect the 2809CI about the same time. Also Magnolia HIFI now has both models in stock locally that Best Buy owns.

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post #65 of 5682 Old 08-21-2008, 01:47 PM
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Any idea about the 2809CI?
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post #66 of 5682 Old 08-21-2008, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayboy911 View Post

Any idea about the 2809CI?

Expected 9/4 also.

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post #67 of 5682 Old 08-21-2008, 02:17 PM
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Thanks
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post #68 of 5682 Old 08-21-2008, 09:08 PM
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Can anyone shed some light on the THD rating of the 2809. On the Denon website under "detailed specifications" it states 115 W "All channels rated @ .05 THD"

However the product sheet and owner's manual from the same website says this....

Product Sheet
----------------
Front L/R 115W+115W
(8 ohms, 20hz-20khz, THD .08%)
*THD figures are power amp stage values

Owners Manual
------------------
Front (A, B):
115 W + 115 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz ~ 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)

I double checked the manual for the 2808 and it reads...
Front (A, B):
110 W + 110 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz ~ 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.)

So what gives? What the hell does "power amp stage values" mean? If it's actually .08% I'm going to be really bummed. Seems like that is actually a step down from the 2808 then.
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post #69 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JREwing View Post

Can anyone shed some light on the THD rating of the 2809. On the Denon website under "detailed specifications" it states 115 W "All channels rated @ .05 THD"

However the product sheet and owner's manual from the same website says this....

Product Sheet
----------------
Front L/R 115W+115W
(8 ohms, 20hz-20khz, THD .08%)
*THD figures are power amp stage values

Owners Manual
------------------
Front (A, B):
115 W + 115 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz ~ 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)

I double checked the manual for the 2808 and it reads...
Front (A, B):
110 W + 110 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz ~ 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.)

So what gives? What the hell does "power amp stage values" mean? If it's actually .08% I'm going to be really bummed. Seems like that is actually a step down from the 2808 then.

I asked about this earlier but some sheets say 0.05% some say 0.08%. Possible typo as the 5 and 8 look similar. Also looking at the 23xx series it went .05% then .08% then .05% in last three models.

To quote about.com. "In reality, total harmonic distortion is hardly perceptible to the human ear. Every component adds some level of distortion, but most distortion is insignificant and small differences in specifications between components mean nothing. Some components have distortion so low it cannot be accurately measured. Listening to a component and evaluating its sound characteristics is the most important way to judge a product."

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post #70 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 02:44 AM
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As I mentioned I have an Oppo 983 which I also want to use for sacd and dvd audio playback. I noticed something on the specs regarding sacd support which was not checked. Does that mean I wouldn't be able to listen to my sacd's with this receiver or does that refer to something else?
Thanks in advance!
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post #71 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 05:02 AM
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Quote:


So what gives? What the hell does "power amp stage values" mean? If it's actually .08% I'm going to be really bummed. Seems like that is actually a step down from the 2808 then.


You can not hear the difference between .08 and .05 THD so does it really matter?

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post #72 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 06:42 AM
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Would be nice to know the correct spec, especially for a 1100 dollar receiver!
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post #73 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16x9enhanced View Post

As I mentioned I have an Oppo 983 which I also want to use for sacd and dvd audio playback. I noticed something on the specs regarding sacd support which was not checked. Does that mean I wouldn't be able to listen to my sacd's with this receiver or does that refer to something else?
Thanks in advance!

According to the manual (p.11) SACD is supported on HDMI inputs. Also the DAC chip in the unit does DSD, so you should be all set.
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post #74 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You can not hear the difference between .08 and .05 THD so does it really matter?

You are probably correct that you can't tell the difference but I'm looking at it strictly from a comparison standpoint. If the 2809 is 115W at .08%, that means it's actual lower when rated at .05%. It's probably somewhere closer to 100W @ .05%. The 2808 was rated 110W @ .05%. So hell yes this matters to me, especially for this kind of money in a receiver.

You're basically paying for a few extra features but losing power for an extra $200-$300 then.

Onkyo is pulling the same thing w/ the 805 to 806. Both rated at 130 watts but went from .05% in 805, to .08% in 806, which is just a numbers game and actually means the 806 actually has less power if you compare them both with the .05% numbers.
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post #75 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JREwing View Post

You are probably correct that you can't tell the difference but I'm looking at it strictly from a comparison standpoint. If the 2809 is 115W at .08%, that means it's actual lower when rated at .05%. It's probably somewhere closer to 100W @ .05%. The 2808 was rated 110W @ .05%. So hell yes this matters to me, especially for this kind of money in a receiver.

You're basically paying for a few extra features but losing power for an extra $200-$300 then.

Onkyo is pulling the same thing w/ the 805 to 806. Both rated at 130 watts but went from .05% in 805, to .08% in 806, which is just a numbers game and actually means the 806 actually has less power if you compare them both with the .05% numbers.

can someone explain this to me? your comparison makes no sense. you can't hear the difference. and you aren't getting "less power".

consider this...

if i ask you to give me 2 numbers less than 10 (audible level), and you tell me "6" and "4" (distortion level), BOTH are less than 10... you can't argue that somehow "6" is "better", because they are indistinguishable in both being less than 10...

edit: all of this ignores the fact that in "real world listening", if you are attempting to max out your avr's power, you aren't getting 115 (or 110) wpc anyway (except in 2-channel)... so the spec, besides being irrelevant (since you can't hear it), is worthless anyway...

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post #76 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JREwing View Post

You are probably correct that you can't tell the difference but I'm looking at it strictly from a comparison standpoint. If the 2809 is 115W at .08%, that means it's actual lower when rated at .05%. It's probably somewhere closer to 100W @ .05%. The 2808 was rated 110W @ .05%. So hell yes this matters to me, especially for this kind of money in a receiver.

You're basically paying for a few extra features but losing power for an extra $200-$300 then.

Onkyo is pulling the same thing w/ the 805 to 806. Both rated at 130 watts but went from .05% in 805, to .08% in 806, which is just a numbers game and actually means the 806 actually has less power if you compare them both with the .05% numbers.

The power is not less between the 2809 and 2808 models as shown by the power amp spec's for dynamic power w/two channels into 8 and 4 ohm loads (130 vs 120 watts, and 180 vs 170 watts), and also note the 145 watts into 6 ohm load at .7 % THD for the 2809 versus 140 watts into 6 ohm load at .7 % THD with 2808.

So where are we loosing power?

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post #77 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

can someone explain this to me? your comparison makes no sense. you can't hear the difference. and you aren't getting "less power".

consider this...

if i ask you to give me 2 numbers less than 10 (audible level), and you tell me "6" and "4" (distortion level), BOTH are less than 10... you can't argue that somehow "6" is "better", because they are indistinguishable in both being less than 10...

edit: all of this ignores the fact that in "real world listening", if you are attempting to max out your avr's power, you aren't getting 115 (or 110) wpc anyway (except in 2-channel)... so the spec, besides being irrelevant (since you can't hear it), is worthless anyway...

I wasn't trying to argue that the distortion levels matter. I am more concerned if the overall power has dropped in the 2809. And again maybe you can't tell but if I'm spending $1200 I want to know what exactly I'm buying compared to other models, brands etc. (apples to apples.)

Anyways, thanks JohnAV for pointing those #'s out. So it would seem that the power has stayed about the same, or in the case of dynamic power actually increased slightly. That's exactly what I was trying to get down to here.
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post #78 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayboy911 View Post

Would be nice to know the correct spec, especially for a 1100 dollar receiver!

Actually, $1200. (ok, $1199)
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post #79 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 12:31 PM
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Officially from Denon Response (Ean Levy) - 08/22/2008 02:18 PM
That is an error on the website. It is 0.08%.
This is very sad to hear!
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post #80 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 01:14 PM
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You are probably correct that you can't tell the difference but I'm looking at it strictly from a comparison standpoint. If the 2809 is 115W at .08%, that means it's actual lower when rated at .05%. It's probably somewhere closer to 100W @ .05%. The 2808 was rated 110W @ .05%. So hell yes this matters to me, especially for this kind of money in a receiver.

You're basically paying for a few extra features but losing power for an extra $200-$300 then.

Onkyo is pulling the same thing w/ the 805 to 806. Both rated at 130 watts but went from .05% in 805, to .08% in 806, which is just a numbers game and actually means the 806 actually has less power if you compare them both with the .05% numbers.


lol, 100, 110, 90, 120 and so on...do you know the true audible difference in this different Watts/ch ratings?

Its only a 3 dB difference between 64 and 128 Watts so 90 to 120 is not even audible.

you are splitting hairs and also do you realize that in a true third party tests seldom to the documented specs match the test

People have to get over the whole Watts issue because it is simply meaningless. If you care about Watts buy and 250W/ch amp that truely has better Dynamic range, better THD.

I personally would never use an AVR amp, I always use my AVRs simply as pre/pros because the amps in them are not good enough for me and my system.

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post #81 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 01:16 PM
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Officially from Denon Response (Ean Levy) - 08/22/2008 02:18 PM
That is an error on the website. It is 0.08%.
This is very sad to hear!

ugh....please people lets worry about something meaningful. ALL of the manufactures specs are not ACCURATE there is always something not tested correctly, etc so we are splitting hairs over something we can not even hear the difference in....yeah, same point as my last post but lets worry about stuff that will actually make a difference in your rooms.

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post #82 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayboy911 View Post

Would be nice to know the correct spec, especially for a 1100 dollar receiver!

But at those levels you cannot hear the difference and isn't that what is important. That's like wanting to know the over all area of the vent holes in the top and sides of the receiver and then buying the one with .00003 more open space because it should be cooler.

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post #83 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

Thanks, but what about when going to commercials or explosion sceens in movies. I am constantly grabbing the remote before I hear TURN IT DOWN. :-)

I've been catching up on Generation Kill episodes this week and can attest that the Dynamic Volume feature on my 1909 yielded an appreciable effect on "wife aggro". I call the three settings (Midnight, Evening, Day) "Don't wake the baby","Don't wake the neighbors",and "Don't piss off your wife in the other room."

Combined with MultiEQ and Dynamic EQ, my 1909 runs circles around the Onkyo 605 it replaced.
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post #84 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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So anyone else received their AVR-2809 yet?

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post #85 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

So anyone else received their AVR-2809 yet?

Yes, arrived from UPS at around 5:30pm. I've replaced my ancient Yamaha with it and am in the process of setting it up.

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post #86 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cstmstyle View Post

Yes, arrived from UPS at around 5:30pm. I've replaced my ancient Yamaha with it and am in the process of setting it up.

Perfect timing for the weekend. :-)

Hope you setup, calibration goes smoothly.

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post #87 of 5682 Old 08-22-2008, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cstmstyle View Post

Yes, arrived from UPS at around 5:30pm. I've replaced my ancient Yamaha with it and am in the process of setting it up.

Pick Churs!!!!

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #88 of 5682 Old 08-23-2008, 06:05 AM
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SOmeone tell me when 2309 will show up in BB - I don't want to go to another store and I'm not even sure how fast they will refund my money...
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post #89 of 5682 Old 08-23-2008, 07:51 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by uplift1:
I've been catching up on Generation Kill episodes this week and can attest that the Dynamic Volume feature on my 1909 yielded an appreciable effect on "wife aggro". I call the three settings (Midnight, Evening, Day) "Don't wake the baby","Don't wake the neighbors",and "Don't piss off your wife in the other room."

Combined with MultiEQ and Dynamic EQ, my 1909 runs circles around the Onkyo 605 it replaced.

Thanks for the info. I too am think of replacing my 605 with either a 2809, 3808, or 876. I want something with dynamic volume and a little more power for my 7.1 setup.

Lowell


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post #90 of 5682 Old 08-23-2008, 10:49 AM
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Interesting thing to note with the 2809. When the source is selected as Tuner the FM channel gets displayed on the TV and also will display the volume. This may be common knowledge but since this is my first Denon receiver I thought it was cool and wanted to share it with those that may not be aware.

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