Official Pioneer SC-05 and SC-07 Owners Thread - Page 125 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #3721 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 11:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossRoad View Post

Thebarnman, it does sound like we have had similar experiences. The lack of of "living presence" is almost exactly what I was meaning by saying the sound was "dry." It wasn't that the sound was inarticulate, or lacking power, it just seemed a bit anemic. It just seems to lack some of the depth, richness, and realism I perceive in the 94. Perhaps what I am hearing now is the more accurate sound, but it seems to me the 94 is closer to reality, at least when it comes to voices. The SC seems to add a hint of high frequency push. As far as the treble control goes, I did adjust it to -2 for CD listening. I did not mess with that control while watching the Dark Knight because I didn't think it would actually be active during movie playback and direct mode engaged. If it does affect it, I will have to change it from the 0 level I left it at last time. And graphicguy, I did run MCACC as soon as I got it set up. That doesn't mean it couldn't use further tweaking, or afford to be run again after a few days of listening. In fact, this is what I plan to do, and this time to leave THX loudness off, since I left it on by mistake last time.

If your using "Direct" then the -2 with our treble setting probably still happens while watching a movie. (That is, if it's turned to on in the menu). I think if you use "Pure Direct" that turns off all processing. Anyway, I think it's something you can definitely check again.

About THX loudness, I know it effects the audio at lower levels but don't know how it effects the audio at higher levels. I would give it a try again with it turned off and check for any differences.

Let us know what you find out!


Interesting to note, when UMR was out calibrating my unit, (with my older audio equipment) he stated my system could use a little bit of a high frequency push. At that time I did not have any way to boost the treble. I'm using some Linn speakers that may not be as bright sounding as other speakers. So maybe the "high frequency push" from the SC-07 might be a good thing for my system. And now at least I have lots of frequency adjustments. Of course, I'll wait to hear from UMR his recommendations as far what adjustments might need to be done to help balance the audio.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #3722 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 12:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
personally I haven't found much gain with <1.6K$ AV amps as pre-amps (ie adding a power amp)

I think because the quality of hte power amp stages (especailly on the Pioneers) is about on par with the pre-amp stage

adding a power amp may give you a bit of extra volume, but from experiments I've tried with other Pioneers it didn't actually give me any better SQ - as the pre-amp stage was the limiting factor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

If I decided to later on, using the SC-07 as a pre-amp "to me" would not seem like a waste of money. I'd be getting the quality of Pioneer's possessing, ease of use and the looks I like from that unit. Also the menu works well with my pro 151fd plasma and 51fd Blu-ray player.

The only concern I would have is if the pre-amp section had more to do with the audio "tonality" than it's built in amplifier on it's own.

I guess as a test, I could take my existing Adcom amp and hook it up from the pre-outs of the SC-07 to see if the sound changes back to what I was used to. To do so however, would be a big pain because of the way my system is laid out. At the same time, I could wait and read if others have done such testing to see if they notice a change in audio quality by doing the same.

By the way, cost or "waist of money" is individual. My old Nakamichi pre-amp's list price was $2300 in 1996. (I bought it about 1997). According to the inflation calculator, that would come to $3011.20 in 2007 dollars. The SC-07 is a bargain compared to that. And it's been more than 10 years of electronic upgrades. There's many advantages with the SC-07 when it comes to convenience particularly when switching between sources, even when those sources output different kinds of digital signals. Then again, can I expect a "receiver" to perform like separates?

More than 10 years of electronic advances, digital upgrades and power amp designs, I've got my fingers crossed as saying "I sure hope so!"

So we'll see...I'll give the SC-07 a good long time to "grow" with me. And as with anything new, I've noticed it takes a while to get things dialed in for best performance. And I'll keep my eyes open to what others have to say about it's audio quality and see if others hook up separate power amps to see how they perform with the SC-07.

markabuckley is offline  
post #3723 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
CHP_VR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newport Zoo
Posts: 3,287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
To everyone,
I hope you and yours have a safe and happy Holiday!
Thanks for making this such a great forum!

"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CHP_VR is offline  
post #3724 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 02:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Juan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: So Cal, US
Posts: 2,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHP_VR View Post

To everyone,
I hope you and yours have a safe and happy Holiday!
Thanks for making this such a great forum!


Same to you and all of the members here.

Juan


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Juan is offline  
post #3725 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 02:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CT_Wiebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 6,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thebarnman -- Typical electronics "burn-in" is 250 hours (168 hours absolute minimum). I wouldn't consider the ICE amps to be up to their full performance potential until they have at least 200 hours of operation on them.

NOTE: You have multiple memory presets for storing your calibration information.

I would suggest that you save your present configuration into one of those. Then run the full-blown MCACC and save the settings in another memory preset. That way you can test the difference between the two. You can also just run the basic MCACC (distance, volume, etc.) and save it in a 3rd preset. BTW, the MCACC will always set your main L/R speakers to "Large" (whether they are, or not), you have to manually set them to "Small" if their performance isn't flat down to around 40Hz, or so.

With my Pioneer AVRs, I've found that the MCACC can do a better job than I can manually (using the Rives Audio Test CD2 and a SPL meter), and a lot faster. It's not up to what UMR can do, but it is a lot closer (having him calibrate your audio system will be a real plus).

RE - External Amps -- I would consider external amps to be a waste (with the SC-05/07) only if: (a) you don't like the "harder" sound of them, (b) you have very difficult to drive speakers, like Magnapans, etc., or (c) you need really high powered amps over 300W to 400W per channel. markabuckley, you hit the "nail on the head".

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everyone.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
CT_Wiebe is offline  
post #3726 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 02:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Stew4msu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Wylie, Texas, USA
Posts: 7,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Thebarnman -- Typical electronics "burn-in" is 250 hours (168 hours absolute minimum). I wouldn't consider the ICE amps to be up to their full performance potential until they have at least 200 hours of operation on them.

Seriously? Man, we use our theater about 4 hours per week (Saturday night movies). It'll take me a year and a half to see how new equipment really performs.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

Stew4msu is offline  
post #3727 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 02:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Juan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: So Cal, US
Posts: 2,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

Seriously? Man, we use our theater about 4 hours per week (Saturday night movies). It'll take me a year and a half to see how new equipment really performs.

Just leave it on playing something while at work or when away from home.

Juan


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Juan is offline  
post #3728 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 02:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CT_Wiebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 6,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

Seriously? Man, we use our theater about 4 hours per week (Saturday night movies). It'll take me a year and a half to see how new equipment really performs.

That shouldn't stop you from using your AVR for audio while watching TV, or listening to CDs, etc. Even playing background music works, too (even if no one is listening ). I've had mine on for 250 hours in the 6 weeks since I got my new 1080p projector. We're listening to Christmas music right now.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
CT_Wiebe is offline  
post #3729 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 03:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Stew4msu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Wylie, Texas, USA
Posts: 7,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

That shouldn't stop you from using your AVR for audio while watching TV, or listening to CDs, etc.

We watch TV (and listen to CD's) on the 67" display (5.1 sound) in the living room. The theater with the good equipment (and 126" screen) is reserved for movies and the occasional sporting event.

"The dream never dies, just the dreamer."

Stew4msu is offline  
post #3730 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 03:27 PM
Member
 
focker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

RE - External Amps -- I would consider external amps to be a waste (with the SC-05/07) only if: (a) you don't like the "harder" sound of them, (b) you have very difficult to drive speakers, like Magnapans, etc., or (c) you need really high powered amps over 300W to 400W per channel. markabuckley, you hit the "nail on the head".

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everyone.


I am one of those people that is using the Pioneer with an external amp because I do have hard to drive speakers. I am using a McIntosh MC303 for the three fronts and the SC-07 for the rears.

Scott
focker is offline  
post #3731 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 04:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Thebarnman -- Typical electronics "burn-in" is 250 hours (168 hours absolute minimum). I wouldn't consider the ICE amps to be up to their full performance potential until they have at least 200 hours of operation on them.

NOTE: You have multiple memory presets for storing your calibration information.

I would suggest that you save your present configuration into one of those. Then run the full-blown MCACC and save the settings in another memory preset. That way you can test the difference between the two. You can also just run the basic MCACC (distance, volume, etc.) and save it in a 3rd preset. BTW, the MCACC will always set your main L/R speakers to "Large" (whether they are, or not), you have to manually set them to "Small" if their performance isn't flat down to around 40Hz, or so.

With my Pioneer AVRs, I've found that the MCACC can do a better job than I can manually (using the Rives Audio Test CD2 and a SPL meter), and a lot faster. It's not up to what UMR can do, but it is a lot closer (having him calibrate your audio system will be a real plus).

RE - External Amps -- I would consider external amps to be a waste (with the SC-05/07) only if: (a) you don't like the "harder" sound of them, (b) you have very difficult to drive speakers, like Magnapans, etc., or (c) you need really high powered amps over 300W to 400W per channel. markabuckley, you hit the "nail on the head".

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year everyone.

Thank you markabuckley and CT_Wiebe.

First, I will go ahead and start letting the SC-07 "burn-in". I guess it does not matter how loud I have it play, (or does it?) so I'll just set it to play a regular FM station for background music while I'm not really listening.

I like the idea of using the multiple MCACC presets. Like you said, I can set one for the "full blown" set up and another for the simple "basic" setup and keep the manual one I'm currently using. And then compare all three.

Also thanks everyone for the info about the possibility of using a separate amp.

I will note that currently (with only a basic simple MANUAL MCACC pre-set) I have given the SC-07 another listen with only a CD. I've switched between "Direct" and "Pure Direct", although both being really close in sound quality, I would have to decide with the "Pure Direct". There seemed to be a better sound image and transits (quick loud sounds) tend to have a more realistic "pop".

According to the manual, and I might be reading this wrong...

Stream direct 2 channel format..

"Direct" with a PCM source is "As Above" and "As above" is Neo:6 Cinema and the Pro Logic IIx MOVIE. (still I think I have all that stuff turned off)

Still...
Where as "Pure Direct" says with PCM sources it just does PCM DIRECT (stereo).

Don't know if the simple "Direct" signal is going through all that other stuff and slightly messing with the signal? However using the "Pure Direct" according to the manual (page 133) shows the PCM signal as only being sent as a stereo signal. That might be why I hear a slight difference.

Also, I've got something interesting to share later tonight about the SC-07 and my REL Sub Bass System. I guess you can say I opened a can of worms!!! Have to work now, but I'll write back tonight....

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
post #3732 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 04:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
catapult's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I don't understand not trying the MCACC auto EQ. If you don't like it, fine, turn it off. But not even trying it just seems stubborn. What have you got to lose? If it seems too bright after MCACC, try it in advanced mode where it measures from 30-50 msec. That won't tend to cut the bass as much as if you let the room modes fully develop before you measure.

Dennis H
catapult is offline  
post #3733 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 05:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
FilmMixer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Los Angeles Area, CA. USA
Posts: 6,858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 524 Post(s)
Liked: 532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

I think the only thing I'm going to let the MCACC do is speaker distance timing, volume balance and to let it know what kind of speakers (big, small or non) I have.

When the time comes, I'll let UMR do any other adjustments when I have him out next time.

About break-in, how many hours are they suggesting? I've never broken in a receiver...and the best way to do it. I've only have experience breaking in speakers and TVs.


Thanks,

Just my .02...

I work in one of the best mixing stages in Hollywood... millions of dollars of equipment, and a purpose built mixing room.

It still needs eq and time alignment.

Unless your listening space has been built from the ground up (not talking about treatments) for audio, you should benefit from what the MCACC offers.. most notably time alignment and bass control.

I offer up that most people who run these systems don't like the sound at first because they are used to hearing their systems, that until recently, didn't have the kinds of tools to accomplish these tasks, especially at these price points.

Most are used to what they've had for years.

And in almost every system I've heard before alignment, they are never what I would call correct.. too much bass most of the time, and way to much early reflection coloration....

I highly suggest you do a full auto MCACC on the system and live with it for a week.... you've got nothing to lose....

In all my years, and with the equipment I've had, nothing comes closer to giving me a balanced sound and proper low end than the SC07 (except the SC09 I had for a short time. ).

I've had Jeff M. out to set up my projector and room... and knowing him, I bet he would give you the same advice until he can come up and look at your room for you.

FilmMixer is online now  
post #3734 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 06:45 PM
Gov
AVS Special Member
 
Gov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NW Burbs of Chgo, IL
Posts: 3,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 108
If anything, MCACC with the EQ engaged will tame the highs quite a bit. For some, it is almost too much. I prefer "front channel align". I do not like the my mains EQ'ed at all.

Merry Christmas!!!!

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
Gov is offline  
post #3735 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 09:11 PM
umr
AVS Club Gold
 
umr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 10,137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

...In all my years, and with the equipment I've had, nothing comes closer to giving me a balanced sound and proper low end than the SC07 (except the SC09 I had for a short time. ).

I've had Jeff M. out to set up my projector and room... and knowing him, I bet he would give you the same advice until he can come up and look at your room for you.


You will have to check out my theater if you ever make it to the Ozarks. I am finally able to setup a dedicated room with a front projector. I am pretty far along and it is looking like it will be awfully good. I just got my Revel B15 sub in yesterday and should be getting my McIntosh CS-350 center soon.

I have worked on several of these new units. From what I am measuring and hearing the latest MCACC is a vast improvement over previous MCACC versions that had the potential to damage speakers it was so wrong. This was due to the fact that the EQ logic frequently boosted the 8k Hz and up range by 9 db. I can't tell you the number of systems I walked into where this was done and that channel had a blown tweeter from putting too much power into the tweeter.

For the current Pioneer products the quality of the final results is the most reasonable attempt at automated receiver setup that I have heard. While it is not doing the best that can be done it is frequently making moves in the right direction while not adding substantial distortion to the sound. Unlike the previous versions of MCACC I see no reason not to run this software and then adjust from there.

W. Jeff Meier


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
umr is offline  
post #3736 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 10:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Just my .02...

I work in one of the best mixing stages in Hollywood... millions of dollars of equipment, and a purpose built mixing room.

It still needs eq and time alignment.

Unless your listening space has been built from the ground up (not talking about treatments) for audio, you should benefit from what the MCACC offers.. most notably time alignment and bass control.

I offer up that most people who run these systems don't like the sound at first because they are used to hearing their systems, that until recently, didn't have the kinds of tools to accomplish these tasks, especially at these price points.

Most are used to what they've had for years.

And in almost every system I've heard before alignment, they are never what I would call correct.. too much bass most of the time, and way to much early reflection coloration....

I highly suggest you do a full auto MCACC on the system and live with it for a week.... you've got nothing to lose....

In all my years, and with the equipment I've had, nothing comes closer to giving me a balanced sound and proper low end than the SC07 (except the SC09 I had for a short time. ).

I've had Jeff M. out to set up my projector and room... and knowing him, I bet he would give you the same advice until he can come up and look at your room for you.


Dennis H and FilmMixer thanks for the info. FilmMixer, about Jeff M (UMR), interesting to note that it was him (last Summer/Fall) who suggested I do manual set up like I had done with my older equipment. It was quite a compliment that he (UMR) thought I had not done too bad of a job on my own (except for my sub setting!). HOWEVER, now reading what Jeff M says about the newest generation of Pioneer's MCACC, I'm interested in trying it. The suggestion earlier about using several memory settings also made sense to me. I could certainly give it a try, and if I don't like it, I could simply go back to one of the earlier settings.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
post #3737 of 17107 Old 12-24-2008, 11:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Before I start, never refer to a REL speaker as a subwoofer. It's a "Sub-Bass System". (I found out the hard way today!) It's designed as an extension of your current speakers. Now that we have that straightened out....

The old joke about when someone gets a new sofa then decides it's important to get new drapes and rug. Well, the SC-07 has pretty much done the same with me. Except it's not furniture dressings I'm worried about.

My old REL STADIUM II Sub-Bass System (the connections that came with it is not compatible with the SC-07). Sure, I can easily hook it up (as I did from the start) that is till a woman by the name of Cendra (spelling?) of Sumiko (REL dealer in CA) strongly suggested I unhook my Stadium II before I do damage. I guess I'm lucky I did not see white smoke! According to her, the SC-07 is a Class "D" amp and the grounding system used with the Stadium II (one little black wire that connects to the negative post on one of the front channel output terminals) is not designed to work properly (with class "D" amps) because the ground is not constant (continuous) as would be the case with another class of amplifier. According to her, it's very important that I get a "High Level Digital Cable" (the word "digital" must be emphasized to make sure I have the correct cable!) that is designed to provide the proper connection (grounding) to the SC-07. The difference? Instead of a little black wire hooked up to the "negative" post of one of the main output terminals, there would be a RCA type connection that's designed to be hooked up to ANY of the unused RCA type connections in the back of the SC-07.

And get this, connecting a RCA type connection to my current REL little black wire and hooking it up to one of the unused RCA connections on the back of the SC-07 would not be the same. (for a reason I don't understand) Anyway,

Even worst, according to Cendra (spelling?), my current REL STADIUM II Sub-Bass System is not designed to work with the .1 channel from movie sound tracks.

I tried to reason with her saying that the SC-07 has a option of using (what ever it's called) "Sub Bass Plus?" so that the bass signals are sent to the .1 channel when using regular two channel audio such as from a CD. Then while watching a movie, the SC-07 automatically switches the .1 channel for proper bass signals for movie soundtracks.

We kept going back and forth, AND back and forth with this conversation. I've never heard of such a thing. I do understand that REL has a philosophy about using the mains (of the power amp) so the characteristics of the amp is forwarded to the sub. But I don't know if that's reason enough to "disallow" a connection to the .1 audio source. Except that there might not be a proper connection for that with my older STADIUM II system.

The newer REL "Sub-Bass System"s DOES take advantage of the .1 channel from movies. From what I understand, there's two types of connections to be made. One high level connection and a low level connection. The high level connection takes advantage of the two main front channels terminals...while the low level connection takes advantage of the .1 signal from the subwoofer pre-out. From what I understand, the new RELs switch from one audio source to the other depending on the type of audio signals are sent to it (two channel audio VS 5.1 channel audio).

When Jeff of UMR was out here, he suggested I get another "sub" to help balance out the bump I was getting with the low frequencies. He mentioned it would not have to be a big "sub" (oops sorry REL, he really meant "Sub-Bass System!) as a smaller second one could easily help. It turns out that REL's smallest "Sub-Bass System" is an older one like my STADIUM II that does not take advantage of the .1 audio source. So it looks like I'm going to be getting REL's "B" series. What the heck, I'll get their biggest "B" series called the B1 Britannia. Of course I'll NEVER remember THAT name, so I'm just going to call it the B1 Bomber. Take that REL!

Now my dilemma. I just realized that my old STADIUM II will only work with regular two channel audio (as long as I'm using the special "High Level Digital Cable" connection). So it would be great to use two REL Sub-Bass Systems while listening to two channel audio. However when I want to watch a movie, the B1 Bomber will be the only Sub-Bass Systems in use. So I guess that means I'll have to get another "B" series REL Sub-Bass System to help balance out the low frequency hump during movies.

Imagine getting two B1 Bombers from a company based out United Kingdom.

In case you did not know, the special connection the REL system uses is called a "Speak-on" made by a company called Neutrik. It has the "Speak-on" that plugs directly into the REL and on the other end, there will be a red and yellow wire and a black RCA connector. I have a feeling there's probably more to it than simply that. And I'll have to wait till after Christmas before I can order this little cable and get my STADIUM II hooked back up! After all, I don't want to ruin my SC-07.

And it still has not been fully explained to me (or maybe I don't fully understand why) I simply can't hook up the REL to the high level sub output. I guess they don't have a special High Level Digital Cable connection for that one!

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
post #3738 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 06:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
graphicguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ohio Valley
Posts: 3,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I can't tell you the number of systems I walked into where this was done and that channel had a blown tweeter from putting too much power into the tweeter.

Jeff, thanks for your useful insights. We just had this conversation regarding one of the pro reviews here. Out of all the frequency bands that any amp or AVR must power, the ones at the highest frequency range are the ones where the least amount is required (and desired, as in the case you state).

FilmMixer....good info about the need for MCACC. Kind of what I already believed, but good to hear an expert's opinion.

Thebarnman.....WOW! I just re-read what your REL dealer said 3 times. And, I'm still not sure I'm following her. I don't know much about REL, nor much about their products. Is their "sub" passive or active? Feeding a "sub bass" higher frequencies (say above 250 Hz) is something I have a hard time seeing the benefit from. Matter of fact, I could see it as a detriment.

Or maybe I just don't know enough about their "sub bass system" to really understand what it does.

Music so high you can't get over it....music so low you can't get under it!
graphicguy is offline  
post #3739 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 08:36 AM
Newbie
 
Listige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I Follow this tread

There are some users with A Denon 4300 series that change the Unit and the old users of the Pioneer
But i heard no one that switched from a Yammie 3800 or 3900 {or Higher series}
Switch too SC-05,06 or 09 SerieS
i think that there is a lot of competition with the Yammie

Regards Listige
Listige is offline  
post #3740 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 10:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Thebarnman.....WOW! I just re-read what your REL dealer said 3 times. And, I'm still not sure I'm following her. I don't know much about REL, nor much about their products. Is their "sub" passive or active? Feeding a "sub bass" higher frequencies (say above 250 Hz) is something I have a hard time seeing the benefit from. Matter of fact, I could see it as a detriment.

Or maybe I just don't know enough about their "sub bass system" to really understand what it does.

Well, the RELs I'm referring to are active speakers. They do have very intricate crossover points so that it mixes in unnoticeably with the rest of the system.

I think what might be confusing in my description is in part on how their designed to be hooked up with the main front left and right speakers. Yes, the full range of frequencies do go to the RELs, during two channel sources, however the RELs cuts off the higher frequencies based on user settings...just like what would happened with a "regular" subwoofer. The REL has 24 crossover frequencies from 22-96Hz

What makes them really different from other low frequency drivers is their ability to reproduce tonality, very quick transits and to easily distinguish the separation of bass notes as being very musical rather than a rumbling of notes played loudly...just for the sake of making low frequencies louder. The key word is "musical".

Here's more info on them... http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b1.htm

Currently I'm in the process of breaking in the SC-07. I turned it on at 6pm last night letting the tuner supply the source audio...in about a couple weeks it will easily have over 250 hours on it! At night I turn it down as to not disturb while sleeping. I at least hope that still has the effects of being broken in while it's being used that way.

Today if I don't have too much going on, I'll take the time out to do the auto set up and see how it goes....

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
post #3741 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 10:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
B&W700guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjb View Post

I have been playing around with speaker position and MCAAC trying to get a more mellow sound, since it really hasn't warmed up at all with break-in

What Break in? I would suggest not breaking the product to get What you call a Mellow Sound

I think this may help in your future. It is a 101 HT Thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554

My Media Room Photos:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
B&W700guy is offline  
post #3742 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 10:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
catapult's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Thebarnman.....WOW! I just re-read what your REL dealer said 3 times. And, I'm still not sure I'm following her.

Yeah, I was scratching my head about that one too. I think it gets down to 2 concerns.

1. Some of the ICE amps run in bridge mode -- the black speaker terminal is hot, not grounded. Rel is concerned about hooking that to ground at the sub's speaker level inputs. It could toast the ICE amp or at least sound really bad. It probably wouldn't do the sub much good either. I don't know if that's a valid concern or not. Someone would need to use an ohmmeter with the receiver turned off to check whether or not the black speaker terminals on the receiver are grounded. (edit) And/or use a voltmeter to see if there is voltage on the black terminals when the speakers are playing.

2. The Rels (at least the older ones I've seen) are really meant as 'bass bins' to supplement the low end of your main speakers for music. They have a relatively small driver and use EQ to extend the response below 20 Hz. With the way some of today's movies are mixed, most likely you'd break the driver if you hooked it up to the sub output of the receiver with an RCA cable. They are high-quality subs but they just don't move enough air to keep up with the LFE special effects in some movies.

Dennis H
catapult is offline  
post #3743 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 02:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Yeah, I was scratching my head about that one too. I think it gets down to 2 concerns.

1. Some of the ICE amps run in bridge mode -- the black speaker terminal is hot, not grounded. Rel is concerned about hooking that to ground at the sub's speaker level inputs. It could toast the ICE amp or at least sound really bad. It probably wouldn't do the sub much good either. I don't know if that's a valid concern or not. Someone would need to use an ohmmeter with the receiver turned off to check whether or not the black speaker terminals on the receiver are grounded. (edit) And/or use a voltmeter to see if there is voltage on the black terminals when the speakers are playing.

2. The Rels (at least the older ones I've seen) are really meant as 'bass bins' to supplement the low end of your main speakers for music. They have a relatively small driver and use EQ to extend the response below 20 Hz. With the way some of today's movies are mixed, most likely you'd break the driver if you hooked it up to the sub output of the receiver with an RCA cable. They are high-quality subs but they just don't move enough air to keep up with the LFE special effects in some movies.


It does sound like I've received some good advise. For now (when I get the High Level Digital Cable connection), I'll use my current REL for regular stereo audio. When I get the B1 Bomber (designed to handle .1 signals) I "might" just use that and set the SC-07 to "Plus".

"Choose the PLUS setting if you want the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously" pg 57

That way the B1 will work for regular two channel audio and the .1 signal. If I end up having to get two subs, I'll worry about it then.

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
post #3744 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Thebarnman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Posts: 3,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I finally used the MCACC! I did it for the "full" setup. I was surprised how little time it took...seemed less than five minutes. By the way, the speaker cord barely reached my listening area! So I got lucky on that.

When it was all over, I noticed that MCACC thought I had large speaker for rears, when in fact they are small. So I went in and manually and set them to small.

Should I have done that while MCACC was in the middle of doing it's thing? Or is what I did ok?

Afterwards I did some regular two channel CD listening and switched between "Direct" and "Pure Direct". Before doing the MCACC, I preferred "Pure Direct", and now I really like how the "Direct" sounds.

Because of some of the equalization, the audio is a little louder on "Direct" when compared to "Pure Direct" and I know that anything that's louder (even if it's by a little bit, it's going to sound "better". However I thought that "Direct" now has a better sound stage and imaging seem to be a little bit better in "focus".

In fact, the whole sound stage seems to be a bit more up front than it was before. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, however it is different. I also like how regular TV sounds better to me.

Later tonight, I'll be checking out some 5.1 audio from some Blu-rays. What I'm going to be checking for is total involvement of audio. And actually, I don't know what to except. I'll let you know after checking it out...

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
Thebarnman is offline  
post #3745 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 10:19 PM
Member
 
tua09788's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
wow...this thread is for real...ha...i was wondering if anyone has either the sc-05/sc-07 hooked up to 4ohm speakers, and what they think about it...I'm thinking about purchasing Vienna Acoustic Baby Beethovens or Mozarts for the fronts...and eventually adding to this system with other Vienna Acoustic stuff...http://www.viennaacoustics.at/produc...cert_grand.php
tua09788 is offline  
post #3746 of 17107 Old 12-25-2008, 11:52 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MichaelJHuman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 18,889
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 214 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Thebarnman -- Typical electronics "burn-in" is 250 hours (168 hours absolute minimum).

This is a highly debatable statement, no offense.

"But this one goes up to 11"
MichaelJHuman is online now  
post #3747 of 17107 Old 12-26-2008, 12:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
B&W700guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Thebarnman -- Typical electronics "burn-in" is 250 hours (168 hours absolute minimum). I wouldn't consider the ICE amps to be up to their full performance potential until they have at least 200 hours of operation on them.

Are you out of your rabid As& mind?

My Media Room Photos:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
B&W700guy is offline  
post #3748 of 17107 Old 12-26-2008, 01:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
I'm not convinved either

break-in is debatable at the best of times, but even more so with a "digital amplifier" - with smaller reservoir capactitors etc than in your normal AV amp ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

Are you out of your rabid As& mind?

markabuckley is offline  
post #3749 of 17107 Old 12-26-2008, 05:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
graphicguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ohio Valley
Posts: 3,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by tua09788 View Post

wow...this thread is for real...ha...i was wondering if anyone has either the sc-05/sc-07 hooked up to 4ohm speakers, and what they think about it...I'm thinking about purchasing Vienna Acoustic Baby Beethovens or Mozarts for the fronts...and eventually adding to this system with other Vienna Acoustic stuff...http://www.viennaacoustics.at/produc...cert_grand.php

tua....glad you enjoy the thread. We've inspected, dissected, circumspected the SC series probably more than any other AV piece in any of these threads. We've had "pros" stop by, as well as real world testing. Glad we can be of help. Dave Vaughn with UltimateAV used M&K 4 Ohm speakers for his listening tests using an SC 05 with very positive results. CraigD13 is using very hard to drive Magnepan MMG 4 Ohm speakers with the same results using an SC 05.

Regarding break-in. Again, referencing Dave Vaugn's tests, the SC 05 "mellowed" with a bit of warm up. I experienced the same thing. I made mention of this in an earlier post. But, once I fire up the SC 05 from "off" and get past all the "splash screens" of a movie, it's sufficiently warmed up.

In my listening tests, mine began to mellow a bit after about 100 hours of use and about 50 hours of "pink noise" break-in. I would say that right now, after a month of nightly use, it's more mellow than when I first hooked it up. I'm using 6 Ohm speakers with moderate efficiency.

As always, depending on your room, your experiences may be different. I know my room isn't "live". I've got carpet, thick seating areas, normal ceiling height.

If you've got yours set up in a room with hardwood/tile floors, high ceilings, lots of hard, reflective surfaces, things may sound a bit bright.

thebarnman....thanks for the explanations regarding the REL. As mentioned, I had heard of REL. I just thought they were another subwoofer manufacturer. Clearly, they are doing something different in that realm, though. Still not sure I can wrap my arms around what they're doing, but interesting, nonetheless.

Music so high you can't get over it....music so low you can't get under it!
graphicguy is offline  
post #3750 of 17107 Old 12-26-2008, 05:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
graphicguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ohio Valley
Posts: 3,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I've learned a lot from the pros who have stopped by.....Dave Vaughn, FilmMixer, umr (Jeff), Gene DeShalla. I've also learned a lot from all the real world "enthusiasts" who've stopped by to offer their opinions.

Great thread!

Thanks to all!!!!!!

Music so high you can't get over it....music so low you can't get under it!
graphicguy is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off