Official Pioneer SC-05 and SC-07 Owners Thread - Page 77 - AVS Forum
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post #2281 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 10:50 AM
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Gee, rw88..
bummer about the problems.. have you tried a mp3 on a thumbdrive yet? Or if network connected, can you play a file from your server? Just checking if there is an issue with playback of audio...
Is it just with your iPod or with any HMG playback?

All other sources on HMG work perfectly, including home networked media. Really fast, too. And I've tried turning off the Equalizer on the iPod, and that didn't help... thought I had an "Ah-HA" moment, but didn't. I find it intriguing that the only thing that doesn't work in this iPod connection is the sound. I'll try a USB drive next.
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post #2282 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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well, if you can live with watching the same program in both rooms, you could use the dual HDMI outs..
On the other hand, I wonder if hooking up your present cablebox to zone 2 and component zone 2 out to your display would be a valid test? It should at least confirm the HD part, I imagine it would pass 1080i without problems.. I'll try to do some experimenting, but won't be able to it until Friday or the weekend.... Hopefully, someone else already has and can confirm one way or another...

edit: Actually, re-reading your application, LS2JSTS, why not use the second HDMI out? That way you only have to deal with one wire to the display?
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I'm just looking for a way to get rid of a box in my den and the cost of paying Comcast....I know, give unto Caesar but....damn! A box for every TV in my house is getting ridiculus.


"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"
Questions about the SC-07 or SC-05? start here
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post #2283 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Keep us up to date, rw88..
What about Pioneer tech support? I know they will probably say "not my problem", but hopefully, they will also know what to do.
(800) 421-1404

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post #2284 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CHP_VR View Post

LS2JSTS
well, if you can live with watching the same program in both rooms, you could use the dual HDMI outs..
On the other hand, I wonder if hooking up your present cablebox to zone 2 and component zone 2 out to your display would be a valid test? It should at least confirm the HD part, I imagine it would pass 1080i without problems.. I'll try to do some experimenting, but won't be able to it until Friday or the weekend.... Hopefully, someone else already has and can confirm one way or another...

Thanks for the reply,

You do enough work in here as it is(much appreciated)....If a current owner is set up that way or chimes in cool, but it's no deal breaker one way or the other really. Something I'll play around with when I FINALLY get mine....

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post #2285 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 11:42 AM
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I know there is a list of differences between the SC-05 and SC-07 posted on the first page but.. I am wondering if anyone has information on the DACS used in these two units. Are they both Wolfson or is the Sc-05 using something different? So besides knowing that the 05 lacks the Bur Brown jitter reduction, lower power even though they weigh the same and some connections they are essentially the same units? I know when I bought the Pioneer 56Txi, Pioneer stated that they were using Burr Brown Dacs inside but I actually opened my receiver up to find that it was using AK dacs instead. Pioneer was still insisting that they were Burr Brown and that is all they could tell me at customer service. Anyone have the inside scoop on what is really used in these two units?Could it really be that the 05 has the exact same power as the 07 but just spec it different?
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post #2286 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by TommmyJ View Post

I know there is a list of differences between the SC-05 and SC-07 posted on the first page but.. I am wondering if anyone has information on the DACS used in these two units. Are they both Wolfson or is the Sc-05 using something different? So besides knowing that the 05 lacks the Bur Brown jitter reduction, lower power even though they weigh the same and some connections they are essentially the same units? I know when I bought the Pioneer 56Txi, Pioneer stated that they were using Burr Brown Dacs inside but I actually opened my receiver up to find that it was using AK dacs instead. Pioneer was still insisting that they were Burr Brown and that is all they could tell me at customer service. Anyone have the inside scoop on what is really used in these two units?Could it really be that the 05 has the exact same power as the 07 but just spec it different?

I suspect the units are pretty much identical with the additional video outputs for the SC-07 and the slight power increase (which I doubt anyone would notice). I had the choice to review either one and we chose the SC-05 because it seemed like the better "value" when looking at the specs (unless you need the second HDMI output etc.)

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post #2287 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 11:50 AM
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Can anyone point me to a link where I can print the back panel connections for 07 for documentation at letter or legal size? Thanks
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post #2288 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by vyellen View Post

Can anyone point me to a link where I can print the back panel connections for 07 for documentation at letter or legal size? Thanks

The back panels show up in the company product sheets (PDF). I don't know if the PDF format works for what you want, but it is there.
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post #2289 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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TommmyJ
There is no way I can verify this (you may want to PM him), but at least one respected AVS member in one of the other threads suggests that they are using Wolfson DACs in the SC series

Quote:
..................the internal DAC of the 51/05 are Wolfson...................the DACs in BDP-05 is the same as the ones in the SC-05/07 series

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post15034281

added: Also an excellent observaton from catapult about what MAY be differences with the SC-07 using Burr Brown for jitter reduction vs the SC-05 Hi-bit sampling
Quote:
.......................I suspect this is one place where the 07 may be better than the 05. They appear to have moved the HDMI audio buffer from the HDMI board to the digital audio board where they are converting everything to 192K and using the receiver's master clock. Just reading between the lines -- the 07 HDMI board is cheaper than the 05 HDMI board even though it has an extra output; the 07 digital audio board costs more and includes the BB chip.........................

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post15006147

Bottom line, both are excellent

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Questions about the SC-07 or SC-05? start here
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post #2290 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 12:39 PM
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Thanks CHP_VR for the help.
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post #2291 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 12:39 PM
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CHP_VR,

I Read your edit.....I'm toying with the idea of getting a FP for the room where my Plasma is now...The cheaper/better they get, the harder they get to ignore. But I wanted to keep the second HDMI for the future FP......I'm pretty sure(from the page you posted), I can run at least Component 1080i from any of the component ins on the SC-07. The real curiousity is if I could run two HD streams at once.....one over component and one over HDMI. I expect not for some reason.......If someone is doing so, I'd love to hear feedback, but I didn't want you having to move around equiptment to dig for the answer......

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post #2292 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS2JSTS View Post

............................................................ ................
Something I'll play around with when I FINALLY get mine....

Does that mean we finally broke you down and you're succumbing to the light side?

"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"
Questions about the SC-07 or SC-05? start here
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post #2293 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TommmyJ View Post

Thanks CHP_VR for the help.

Also, the BB chip used is a sample rate converter, the SC-05 and Sc-07 both have jitter reduction.....The mystery is where and how it is applied and how the BB SRC is utilized.....As CHP points out Catapult, thru use of the parts list has a pretty plausible explanation, for now. I've been digging for this answer since day one of my interest and I've never been closer than catapults theory....

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post #2294 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CHP_VR View Post

Does that mean we finally broke you down and you're succumbing to the light side?

Oh, the decision has been made.....I'll have one, the only question is when. I have a strict rule to sell two pieces for every new piece I buy....Anyone interested in a Sony DHG or maybe a Denon 2808 or a Thorens TD140 or a Denon 3808...lol, I got a store around me...or maybe even a BDP-05...That 5000ES is calling my name as well.

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post #2295 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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No problem, give 'em as presents for your relatives and go out and buy the FP and SC-07 for you!

"you're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me"
Questions about the SC-07 or SC-05? start here
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post #2296 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LS2JSTS View Post

Thanks for digging that up for us CHP_VR.....

My reading says....No trancoding or upconversion for zone 2 at all. Component in/component out and I don't see any exclusions for what definition that signal must be in. So I would assume I could run Cable/Sat in to the SC-07 over component and out over HDMI with conversion set to on. With conversion set to off I should get HD component out for zone 2 for any HD feed thats component in to the SC-07. Now the question is can zone 2 be fed the HD component feed while zone 1 is watching a BR over HDMI.....

By any chance....any owners out there set up even remotely like this?

Truthfully, I've never run a zone 2 ever.....I'm just looking for a way to get rid of a box in my den and the cost of paying Comcast....I know, give unto Caesar but....damn! A box for every TV in my house is getting ridiculus.

Hope this helps.
I have a SC-07 and my config is like this.
07 in basement with home theater and a LCD in bar area.
Upstairs livingroom has stereo with LCD and it's own HD sat box.
3 zones but 2 are clones of each other.
I have in the basement a HD sat reciever
PS3 bluray and a x-box.

HD sat is HDMI
PS3 is HDMI
and x-box is component.

In's
PS3- Bd in
HD sat-HDMI 1
x-box-component video1 in2

Out's
out1HDMIcontrol to Home theater
out2(HDMI)-bar LCD
zone2 out-upstairs livingroom.

Here's what I can do.
watch anything in the home theater and bar at the same time.(same source)
watch anything including what is being shown in the basement , in the livingroom.

I can watch tv in the basement while my son plays x-box in the livingroom or vice versa.

what is strange is that I dont get sound from the bar tv. It comes out of the home theater speakers which seems odd since it is HDMI to it.
Still working on that.
Not a big deal though.

Hope this helps
Geoff

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post #2297 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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wow, thank you Geoff! You have one heck of nice setup!
I'm adding this to the front page as a link so it doesn't get lost. Please let us know when you resolve the audio issue to your bar tv.. thanks again!!

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post #2298 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 06:58 PM
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Hi -- Contemplating an SC-07 for my family room and adjacent areas... I really like the unit, until I came across this in a review:
"No video processing of HDMI inputs
No video processing of 1080i/720p component signals" Is this serious? It will only upscale 4801/p signals over component? And it won't touch anything that's HDMI? If so, it's a deal killer - I can't imagine Pioneer hamstringing the video output like that on a $2200 Elite product, so I hope the experts in this thread can comment. Thanks!
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post #2299 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

Hi -- Contemplating an SC-07 for my family room and adjacent areas... I really like the unit, until I came across this in a review:
"No video processing of HDMI inputs
No video processing of 1080i/720p component signals" Is this serious? It will only upscale 4801/p signals over component? And it won't touch anything that's HDMI? If so, it's a deal killer - I can't imagine Pioneer hamstringing the video output like that on a $2200 Elite product, so I hope the experts in this thread can comment. Thanks!

What do you need us to comment on? You have the information right.
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post #2300 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

Hi -- Contemplating an SC-07 for my family room and adjacent areas... I really like the unit, until I came across this in a review:
"No video processing of HDMI inputs
No video processing of 1080i/720p component signals" Is this serious? It will only upscale 4801/p signals over component? And it won't touch anything that's HDMI? If so, it's a deal killer - I can't imagine Pioneer hamstringing the video output like that on a $2200 Elite product, so I hope the experts in this thread can comment. Thanks!

It's the same with the SC-09, which is $7000.

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post #2301 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 08:12 PM
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I guess I'm just astounded that these units have such significant flaws in the video processing design and yet they have gotten such favorable reviews. I was hoping that I had read wrong and you guys would tell me what I wanted to hear - Namely that they can transcode and upscale all video signals to an optimal output through a single digital interconnect. It seems to me like they built the upgrade path for the next years models with this cheap trick. Why would anyone buy a $7000 SC-09 that has such a competitive disadvantage on the video side?
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post #2302 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

I guess I'm just astounded that these units have such significant flaws in the video processing design and yet they have gotten such favorable reviews. I was hoping that I had read wrong and you guys would tell me what I wanted to hear - Namely that they can transcode and upscale all video signals to an optimal output through a single digital interconnect. It seems to me like they built the upgrade path for the next years models with this cheap trick. Why would anyone buy a $7000 SC-09 that has such a competitive disadvantage on the video side?

In my SC-09 review, there is an explanation on why Pioneer is doing this. From my perspective, it isn't a big deal and here's why. For BD content, it's unneeded. For HD content, it really isn't needed either as long as your display can take a 1080i signal and correctly make it 1080p (most do a pretty good job of it now, but that wasn't the case with the first generation 1080p displays). For SD content over component (480i/p), it will transcode and upconvert to 1080i/p. Anything over HDMI is simply passed through.

For the most part, the scaling chips they are using are pretty good, but in my projector I have a Gennum processor, which is much better than whats offered in virtually every AVR. My pre/pro has a HQV Reon chip, and I bypass it completely. For DVDs you can get MUCH better performance from an Oppo 983 or even the new Panasonic BD players (BD35/55) as well as the new Pioneer units.

Finally, all of the scaling chips in the AVR are 8-bit. If you have a BD player that has a 12-bit processor and you send it to your AVR for processing, it's going to degrade the signal. IMO the processing in the AVRs are going to be unnecessary in a couple of years when virtually everything we watch is HD. Hell, that's about 99% of what I watch now.

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post #2303 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff View Post

Hope this helps.
I have a SC-07 and my config is like this.
07 in basement with home theater and a LCD in bar area.
Upstairs livingroom has stereo with LCD and it's own HD sat box.
3 zones but 2 are clones of each other.
I have in the basement a HD sat reciever
PS3 bluray and a x-box.

HD sat is HDMI
PS3 is HDMI
and x-box is component.

In's
PS3- Bd in
HD sat-HDMI 1
x-box-component video1 in2

Out's
out1HDMIcontrol to Home theater
out2(HDMI)-bar LCD
zone2 out-upstairs livingroom.

Here's what I can do.
watch anything in home theater and bar at same time.(same source)
watch anything including what's is being shown in basement , in the livingroom.

I can watch tv in basement while my son plays x-box in livingroom or vice versa.

what is strange is that I dont get sound from bar tv. It come out of home theater speakers which seems odd since it is HDMI to it.
Still working on that.
Not a big deal thou.

Hope this helps
Geoff

Geoff....Thanks a ton for the detailed set up run down. It did help....

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post #2304 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

In my SC-09 review, there is an explanation on why Pioneer is doing this. From my perspective, it isn't a big deal and here's why. For BD content, it's unneeded. For HD content, it really isn't needed either as long as your display can take a 1080i signal and correctly make it 1080p (most do a pretty good job of it now, but that wasn't the case with the first generation 1080p displays). For SD content over component (480i/p), it will transcode and upconvert to 1080i/p. Anything over HDMI is simply passed through.

For the most part, the scaling chips they are using are pretty good, but in my projector I have a Gennum processor, which is much better than whats offered in virtually every AVR. My pre/pro has a HQV Reon chip, and I bypass it completely. For DVDs you can get MUCH better performance from an Oppo 983 or even the new Panasonic BD players (BD35/55) as well as the new Pioneer units.

Finally, all of the scaling chips in the AVR are 8-bit. If you have a BD player that has a 12-bit processor and you send it to your AVR for processing, it's going to degrade the signal. IMO the processing in the AVRs are going to be unnecessary in a couple of years when virtually everything we watch is HD. Hell, that's about 99% of what I watch now.

+1!

It's about time we stop accommadating old technology...on the video side of things anyway.

I want an AVR with eight HDMI inputs and two S-Video, instead of the other way around. What is it that people want to upconvert at 720p, game consoles? Upconversion of 480i/p is all I would ever want to do, if ever. And as for HDMI upconversion, if not expertly done, hands off!

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post #2305 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

I guess I'm just astounded that these units have such significant flaws in the video processing design and yet they have gotten such favorable reviews. I was hoping that I had read wrong and you guys would tell me what I wanted to hear - Namely that they can transcode and upscale all video signals to an optimal output through a single digital interconnect. It seems to me like they built the upgrade path for the next years models with this cheap trick. Why would anyone buy a $7000 SC-09 that has such a competitive disadvantage on the video side?

Like Dave said in his review, Pioneer has chosen a 'do no harm' approach with their receiver video processing. Some receivers (cough Denon Onkyo) do more harm than good -- e.g. crushing the blacks or whites. If you have a good display, there's no need for the receiver to do any processing; the display will take care of it.

Dennis H
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post #2306 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 09:09 PM
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All I feel the AVR needs to do is transcode any analog signals to HDMI, then let the display handle the rest. I really love only having to run one HDMI cable to my projector!

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post #2307 of 17109 Old 11-12-2008, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

All I feel the AVR needs to do is transcode any analog signals to HDMI, then let the display handle the rest. I really love only having to run one HDMI cable to my projector!

I am enjoying that too!!




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post #2308 of 17109 Old 11-13-2008, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

All I feel the AVR needs to do is transcode any analog signals to HDMI, then let the display handle the rest. I really love only having to run one HDMI cable to my projector!

Dave, I feel the same as you. If you're running a BD player via HDMI, you're getting 1080p. If you're using an upconverting SD DVD player, you're also outputting 1080p.

So, what's left (unless you're still using something like a laser disk player, old DVD player, or VHS) is your cable/sat STB. Personally, it pains me to watch 480i broadcasts, whether they're upconverted, or not. Maybe I've been spoiled.

Looking forward, just about every major channel is now broadcasting in HD (720p/1080i). That will continue to get better.

So, all of my sources (Oppo, PS3, SA 8300 HD PVR) already output 1080i/p.

I have no "WANT" for any video processing that I don't already have. Video processors introduce their own issues, regardless of how good they are.

BTW....do you have an opinion regarding the power difference (albeit slight) between the SC 05/07? We've theorized in here that the ICE amp modules are the same between both units. Yet, Pioneer just "rates" them differently, without any real world differences.

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post #2309 of 17109 Old 11-13-2008, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

All I feel the AVR needs to do is transcode any analog signals to HDMI, then let the display handle the rest. I really love only having to run one HDMI cable to my projector!

+1... i think people get WAY to hung up on video processing in avr's, especially those who have decent displays...

this (i think) has come about because video processing in older displays was a bit lacking, and the constant hyping of reon, etc. by people in the avr forum...

again, same disclaimer as before, the video in my system doesn't even go to the avr, but before i had the separate video processor, i passed everything straight through the avr i had at that time (82txs) to the display and let the display do the processing....

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #2310 of 17109 Old 11-13-2008, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

I guess I'm just astounded that these units have such significant flaws in the video processing design and yet they have gotten such favorable reviews. I was hoping that I had read wrong and you guys would tell me what I wanted to hear - Namely that they can transcode and upscale all video signals to an optimal output through a single digital interconnect. It seems to me like they built the upgrade path for the next years models with this cheap trick. Why would anyone buy a $7000 SC-09 that has such a competitive disadvantage on the video side?

well, it's not a "significant flaw"... the "optimal output" isn't necessarily 1080p out of the avr... the optimal output is providing the best video processor in the stream the most unmolested signal...

why are you assuming that the avr will do a better job of processing than the display will? if you will scroll back a few pages and look for an exchange of posts between vgi and myself, you will see that the "significant flaw" is actually an advantage...

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my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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