"Official" RX-V1900/RX-V3900 Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 6052 Old 11-05-2008, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Michael nice review

Quick notes on VP in general.

1. Matching resolutions will typically look best. i.e. 720P source - 720P display, 1080P source - 1080P display. Bypassing any VP.

2. Find the device(s) in your system that have the best processing and let them do the work.

3. The more processing you do the worse the picture typically gets. i.e. Re-processing is more likely to do more harm than good. Send the native signal to the best processing device and only process once when possible.

If you are testing SD sources try it with the receiver's VP and check the results. Then set the receiver to pass through and see how good your display does with it. Go with the device that has the better VP.

DVD's you have to test the player itself, the receiver and the display. To test the receiver and display send it a 480i signal not 480P. If you send 480P then the player already did the de-interlacing.

The same holds true for testing HD sources that don't match the resolution of the display. 1080i needs to be tested for 1080P displays to find which device does the best de-interlacing and frame conversion.

Hope this helps.

Bob

I have said most of this same sort of thing in the AVR Faq, Bob

What I was specifically looking for, was two things. 1) Improve Speed TV and 2) Improve PS3 DVD playing

I believe 1) is unsolvable. Thankfully I was buying the 3900 for a number of features and I did not actually expect the ABT 2010 to perform miracles. And I could not afford the Z7 even if it's implementation is better.

For (2), I do believe there is a potential improvement there when outputting 480p from the PS3 and having the RX-V3900 processing the video to 1080p. I will give this more testing over the next few weeks. The improvement will be subtle at best.

I have been assuming for a few years that these AVR with VP are not nearly as useful as people think they are. Unless the RX-V3900 did an awful job of implementing the 2010 chip, I believe I have gone a long way towards reinforcing my belief. People should NOT expect these AVR VPs to suddenly turn SD into HD.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #452 of 6052 Old 11-05-2008, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

RX-V3900 Review

Tuner

Ok, now to talk about HD. The manual confused me a bit on this. But here's what I see. I tuned into a station which is supposed to have HD. When I select the station, it seems to tune in a noisy FM signal. Then, in a few seconds, the noise goes away and an HD indicator lights up.

The status/title button brings up a screen which confirms this - sweet!

My local college alternative comes in signficantly clearer over HD. It's that simple. I programmed in the channel just like any other FM channel. In fact, I did not even know it was HD until I looked it up, and confirmed it with the indicator. I like it!! If you are a radio listener, you may to.

I give Yamaha 3 out of 10 for the preset programming interface and 8 out of 10 for the tuner.

One minor annoyance - it's too easy to hit iTunes tagging with the remote layout if you are trying to select a different HD program using the program select buttons mid remote.

Michael,

Very nice review!

Have you tried AM-HD radio yet? This is my second HD tuner, so I am somewhat familiar with it.

Don't know if you ever listen to AM Radio,
but as nice as the improvement is for FM-HD, the improvement for
AM-HD is even better! If you haven't already, find the strongest or
closest AM station to where you are and have a listen. It's dramatic, IMHO.
As I mentioned previously, you might not get any AM-HD at night. If you
are fortunate enough to actually have an AM-HD music station, it's even
better!

FWIW, I too had the accidental iTunes tagging slip that you did.
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post #453 of 6052 Old 11-05-2008, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I usually only listen to AM for sports radio, and have not done that lately. I have sort of become more interested in college hockey then football, and I have no idea if there's a show that talks about the CC Tigers. I will try out AM HD sometime though.

I still want to test analog to HDMI video processing, just to give prospective buyers an idea.

I want to bang on some other things some more too. I want to play with Rhapsody more for example.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #454 of 6052 Old 11-05-2008, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

RX-V3900 Review
It sounded good. I could find no obvious fault. And that's with Yamaha's weird YPAO speaker settings.

Which YPAO mode were you listening to (Front, Flat or Natural)? You should be able to switch between all three YPAO modes to compare them, without re-doing the setup --- that's new on the 3900.
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post #455 of 6052 Old 11-05-2008, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Which YPAO mode were you listening to (Front, Flat or Natural)? You should be able to switch between all three YPAO modes to compare them, without re-doing the setup --- that's new on the 3900.

I believe it was natural

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post #456 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Thankfully I was buying the 3900 for a number of features and I did not actually expect the ABT 2010 to perform miracles.

Thanks for the write up Michael. I'm thinking of picking one of these up this weekend from my local BB. One question I would like answered before I do though, and only because it doesn't seem to have been actually confirmed by any truly "reliable" sources yet... Have you been able to confirm that the VP chip in this receiver is the 2010? I know that this seems to be the logical consensus, but I haven't seen any "hard" evidence that this is the indeed the chip and that it is not some other AB chip.
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post #457 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 01:53 AM
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Finally got everything hooked up and running Wednesday. So far I'm pretty pleased. I'm running all the connections straight through with no processing, but for the heck of it I played around with it on my two analog component connections(Wii and Xbox 360[pre-HDMI model]) to see if the 3900 did a better job up-converting to 1080P than my monitor(Mits 73835). I couldn't tell any difference between letting the set convert the Wii from 480P to 1080P and having the receiver do it. But when I had the receiver convert the 1080i output of the Xbox 360 to 1080P instead of the set, I could see "sparklies/stars" all over the screen whenever a black screen came up. I switched the receiver back to THROUGH(no processing/up-conversion) for the analog-to-HDMI connections and the picture was fine again. I never had an all black screen come up on the Wii, so I can't say 100% that it wouldn't happen there as well, but has anyone else experienced this or know what my be causing it? I'm not too worried right now because I'm not planning on using the receivers up-conversion and I was only playing around checking out the features, but could this be pointing to a possible problem with the receiver?
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post #458 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 02:09 AM
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Michael,
Great review. Thanks for taking the time to post your findings. I'm looking to pick one of these up soon (currently running an RX-V1500) and will keep an eye out for your on-going evaluations (and those of other owners).
Cheers,
Stuart.

"What are you waiting for, you're faster than this. Don't think you are, know you are"
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post #459 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csimon2 View Post

Thanks for the write up Michael. I'm thinking of picking one of these up this weekend from my local BB. One question I would like answered before I do though, and only because it doesn't seem to have been actually confirmed by any truly "reliable" sources yet... Have you been able to confirm that the VP chip in this receiver is the 2010? I know that this seems to be the logical consensus, but I haven't seen any "hard" evidence that this is the indeed the chip and that it is not some other AB chip.

The ABT2010 is shown in the service manual (block diagram on page 105). Yamaha service manuals have full schematics and always seem to be accurate. It doesn't mean they are using all the features of the 2010 though (we know some things are reserved for the Z7, to encourage people to put down some extra cash).
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post #460 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 07:01 AM
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Just wondering if anyone has the RX-V3900 along with the XM or Sirius adapter and what their impressions of it are. How about the Bluetooth adapter? Any iPhone owners out there with this combo?
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post #461 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ira_l View Post

Just wondering if anyone has the RX-V3900 along with the XM adapter and what their impressions of it are.

I use an XM mini-tuner with my RX-V3900. It works fine. There was some re-arrangement of display functionality from the RX-V3800. (I'm afraid I'll wear out the info button on the remote control before any other.) There also was a loss of details on antenna signal strength from the RX-V3800 to the RX-V3900. Other than that, there isn't much to give in the way of impressions. It just works. (Now, if the RX-V3900 paid the XM bill for me, then I'd have a better impression for sure.)
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post #462 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 10:01 AM
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^That's an interesting concept there. The designers either thought or were told: "The satellite antenna signal strength indicator that we currently have must be eliminated . Let's spend money to figure out how to remove this user information from the new model, the RXV3900."

Boy, they sure are smart.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #463 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ira_l View Post

Just wondering if anyone has the RX-V3900 along with the XM or Sirius adapter and what their impressions of it are. How about the Bluetooth adapter? Any iPhone owners out there with this combo?

There was a little note with all of the paperwork in the 3900 that stated Sirius would be available on-line in March of 2009 via a firmware update. Not exactly sure what that means, since you can access and listen on-line already with a Sirius account and no other info was given. Better sound quality, dedicated tuner like control, etc. all via internet instead of an external tuner/ant??? I have a lifetime Sirius subscription, but I only listen in my vehicle and I have XM for free with DirecTV, so I don't plan on buying the Sirius unit for the receiver, but if this firmware update will do what I think and allow you to do it for free if you already have Sirius, then that will be nice.
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post #464 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

That's an interesting concept there. The designers either thought or were told: "The satellite antenna signal strength indicator that we currently have must be eliminated . Let's spend money to figure out how to remove this user information from the new model, the RXV3900."

They didn't remove it exactly. It used to be a submenu of the GUI input source XM that gave a numeric readout 0-100. But it was GUI only. Now it's on the front panel via the Info key. But it's just a five bar display. So even at that it was a trade. You can see it without the GUI. But it doesn't provide nearly as much information.
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post #465 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post

There was a little note with all of the paperwork in the 3900 that stated Sirius would be available on-line in March of 2009 via a firmware update. Not exactly sure what that means, since you can access and listen on-line already with a Sirius account and no other info was given. Better sound quality, dedicated tuner like control, etc. all via internet instead of an external tuner/ant??? I have a lifetime Sirius subscription, but I only listen in my vehicle and I have XM for free with DirecTV, so I don't plan on buying the Sirius unit for the receiver, but if this firmware update will do what I think and allow you to do it for free if you already have Sirius, then that will be nice.

No, that insert is referring to a different service which will be available on the RX-V3900 after a firmware update. It will supply Sirius via the Internet. No antenna will be required - no dock will be required. This service has a subscription fee associated with it.

See more here.
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post #466 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 10:46 AM
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They didn't remove it exactly. It used to be a submenu of the GUI input source XM that gave a numeric readout 0-100. But it was GUI only. Now it's on the front panel via the Info key. But it's just a five bar display. So even at that it was a trade. You can see it without the GUI. But it doesn't provide nearly as much information.

Check.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #467 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ira_l View Post

XM or Sirius adapter Bluetooth adapter

BTW, understand that Yamaha offers the Bluetooth "wireless dock" and iPod dock as accessories. The XM mini tuner dock and mini tuner cartridge and/or SiriusConnect tuner are not made by Yamaha.
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post #468 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 11:06 AM
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BTW, understand that Yamaha offers the Bluetooth "wireless dock" and iPod dock as accessories. The XM mini tuner dock and mini tuner cartridge and/or SiriusConnect tuner are not made by Yamaha.

Right. Since they interface with the GUI, front panel, Web control, etc., I was just wondering if anyone who had them had any feedback.
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post #469 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't list the price, but for some reason someone on Amazon is selling the dock for a price so low you won't believe it. Mistake? Fraud? Defective?

Well, I could not pass up the chance, as I won't be out much money if it does not work as advertised.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #470 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I can't list the price, but for some reason someone on Amazon is selling the dock for a price so low you won't believe it. Mistake? Fraud? Defective?

Well, I could not pass up the chance, as I won't be out much money if it does not work as advertised.

You're not kidding, I'm not planning on buying my receiver for a few more months, but at this price I'll order it today and use it at work around the store!
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post #471 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 12:00 PM
 
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For those that are seriously into AM HD radio you may want to consider replacing the Yamaha loop antenna with the $40 Terk AM Advantage Loop antenna:

available from C.Crane
available from NewEgg

I do not yet own the V3900 but I do use the Terk loops for AM HD reception on two other HD radios with excellent results. The Terk loop will offer greater signal gain and will help in nulling out noise sources.

AM loop antennas are bi-directional and the Terk loop is frequency tunable for greatest gain. Loops have sharp reception nulls broadside to the loop which is helpfull for rejecting noise. For greatest signal strength point the loop towards the AM station. In cases of interference orient the loop so that the noise generating device (plasma display) is as far away as possible and broadside to the loop.

It may not eliminate interference from a plasma display but the better, narrower, directivity of reception with the larger diameter of the Terk loop will be more effective in nulling out noise. Do keep in mind that AM radio reception, standard or HD, is more suseptable to electronic noise interference than FM.

I do agree that AM HD radio is a hugh improvement especially since it is also capable of stereo if the station chooses to broadcast in stereo.
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post #472 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 12:59 PM
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[quote=MichaelJHuman;15012747]I have said most of this same sort of thing in the AVR Faq, Bob

What I was specifically looking for, was two things. 1) Improve Speed TV and 2) Improve PS3 DVD playing


For (2), I do believe there is a potential improvement there when outputting 480p from the PS3 and having the RX-V3900 processing the video to 1080p. I will give this more testing over the next few weeks. The improvement will be subtle at best.

I have been assuming for a few years that these AVR with VP are not nearly as useful as people think they are. Unless the RX-V3900 did an awful job of implementing the 2010 chip, I believe I have gone a long way towards reinforcing my belief. People should NOT expect these AVR VPs to suddenly turn SD into HD.[/QUOTE]

No, it doesn't. I was using the 360 for 'plain' DVD's w/yamaha processing on...minimal improvement at best.

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post #473 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyMelon View Post

No, it doesn't. I was using the 360 for 'plain' DVD's w/yamaha processing on...minimal improvement at best.

Try sending 480p from the 360. I saw zero improvement from 1080p. My guess is that PReP is not working with 1080p. Bug? Who knows. I don't suggest 720p unless your TV is 720p native. I am thinking of asking Gene to test this for the Z7 review.

The improvement on 480p out of the XBox 360 with PReP on was obvious. From fail to pass on the HQV tests.

Where you would notice this would be with fast moving objects. The 360's deinterlacer is so bad, I would guess it may do nothing more complicated than assemble the fields into a frame with no processing.

Due to the fact you would have to manually select output mode just for watching DVDs, I would suggest not using the 360 as a DVD player if you want the best quality picture.

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post #474 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Clark View Post

For those that are seriously into AM HD radio you may want to consider replacing the Yamaha loop antenna with the $40 Terk AM Advantage Loop antenna

Thanks for the link. It hadn't occured to me to look at Terk. Do you find that using the tuning on the antenna is necessary or helpful? I ask because getting the antenna sufficiently removed from the plasma display puts it really well hidden in a corner and not readily accessible. One of the few things I listen to AM for, DU Pioneers hockey (I mention the name of the team simply because their arch rival has already been name dropped in the thread), is on three different stations this season, two at opposite ends and one in the middle of the AM dial.
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post #475 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

RX-V3900 Review
Ok, so now for the HQV test.

I ran the HQV three lines jaggie test. I did see a small improvement when progressive reprocessing is turned on. I think that's an indication that progressive reprocessing works.

I wanted to run the same tests from my 360, which has poor video performance according to HQV testing.

I had confusing results. The 360 was set to output 1080p over HDMI from the start. I had HDMI processing on, and progressive reprocessing on. That three lines jaggie test looked bad. This was not expected as progressive reprocessing should have been able to correct this poor result from the 360.

I then changed the 360 to output 480p. It still looked bad. I then changed the resolution from the 3900 to 480p. Suddenly, it was correcting the poorly deinterlaced 360 signal. Ok, so progressive reprocessing DOES work. But under what scenarios? I changed the 360 back to outputting 1080p. The jaggies were bad again!

I will try to test analog VP soon, but it's not an immediate concern for me personally.

Michael - your thoughts on de-interlacing (1080i)? And upscaling of DVDs? I'm a bit disheartened thus far with your thought on video performance.

At this point, I'm starting lean heavily towards the Onkyo 876. I'll give up networking/USB, but gain in video quality and control (ISF Calibration) along with latest Audyssey.
- Will
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post #476 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ira_l View Post

Just wondering if anyone has the RX-V3900 along with the XM or Sirius adapter and what their impressions of it are. How about the Bluetooth adapter? Any iPhone owners out there with this combo?

Can't stream tunes from iPhone to receiver. IPhone has the weakest excuse for a Bluetooth stack of any smartphone ever. It will only send (and receive) mono audio to a handsfree set. That's it.

In order to stream stereo you need to buy an add-on dongle like icombi or 8bananas ($75). These dongles plug into the large bottom port on iphone, use iphone battery power, and stream stereo music (A2DP) and even video(AVRP) out to nearby Bluetooth receivers that support these formats.
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post #477 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvbeethoven View Post

Michael - your thoughts on de-interlacing (1080i)? And upscaling of DVDs? I'm a bit disheartened thus far with your thought on video performance.

At this point, I'm starting lean heavily towards the Onkyo 876. I'll give up networking/USB, but gain in video quality and control (ISF Calibration) along with latest Audyssey.
- Will

I have not attempted to deinterlace 1080i. I can try that. I just need to find a 1080i TV channel.

As for upscaling DVDs, that's a bit tricky. I have two options.

1) Send 480p from DVD to the 3900. That DOES work. It clearly improved the 360 output. It was not subtle when looking at the HQV tests
2) Send 480i component from one of my sources. I can test this. I don't really see the point though. Almost all DVD players output only output 480p over HDMI. And HDMI DVD players are now so cheap. Why use a DVD player which forces a D to A AND a A to D conversion just to avoid 480p?

In conclusion, just send 480p over HDMI to the 3900 from any DVD player. If your player does NOT do a good job of interlacing, turn on PReP.

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post #478 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mellamoesrico View Post

In order to stream stereo you need to buy an add-on dongle like icombi or 8bananas ($75). These dongles plug into the large bottom port on iphone, use iphone battery power, and stream stereo music (A2DP) and even video(AVRP) out to nearby Bluetooth receivers that support these formats.

Actually AVRCP is not "video". It is "audio/video remote control profile". It means the receiving Bluetooth device can send commands like play, pause, track up, track down, to the streaming transmitting audio device.

I agree that iphones' lack of built in A2DP and AVRCP is pathetic in this day and age. I wont considerer buying one unless they fix that. Dongles suck. I've had those two protocols built into my Samsung cell phones for over two years. I can stream and control track selection from my bluetooth headphones to my cell phone acting as an MP3 player, or my Insignia (Best Buy brand) MP3 player which sells for about $100 and takes SDHC memory cards up to 32GB.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #479 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lvbeethoven View Post

Michael - your thoughts on de-interlacing (1080i)? And upscaling of DVDs? I'm a bit disheartened thus far with your thought on video performance.

At this point, I'm starting lean heavily towards the Onkyo 876. I'll give up networking/USB, but gain in video quality and control (ISF Calibration) along with latest Audyssey.
- Will

I hooked up a Yamaha DVD changer with component output. Interestingly enough, there was no improvement when using the RX-V3900 to deinterlace 480i to 480p on the jaggie tests. Apparently, my TV does a very good job of deinterlacing 480i over HDMI.

I tried the HQV Film Detail (race car passing by stands,) and the difference was noticable. The 3900 reduced the moire pattern in the stands. Not as well as I think it should, but better than the TV.

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post #480 of 6052 Old 11-06-2008, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lvbeethoven View Post

Michael - your thoughts on de-interlacing (1080i)? And upscaling of DVDs? I'm a bit disheartened thus far with your thought on video performance.

At this point, I'm starting lean heavily towards the Onkyo 876. I'll give up networking/USB, but gain in video quality and control (ISF Calibration) along with latest Audyssey.
- Will

I can't find any advantage to deinterlacing 1080i in the RX-V3900 on my TV. Someone else might notice something, but I don't. It's possible my TV does a good enough job at that task. I swapped back and forth between through and 1080p while watching a discovery channel show.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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