"Official" RX-V1900/RX-V3900 Thread - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookiedds View Post

So, for the application quoted above, would the 3900 offer any significant performance improvement over the 1900 in my theater?

I would say no...especially since you have no interest in the other features of 3900, save some cash and go with 1900.

*I am also not a big fan of being unable to listen to audio only source in background. I found it odd.

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post #1082 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sli123 View Post

I don't know enough about it to be sure but my assumption was this;

If a signal is coming into a device (in this case a receiver) using HDMI then the dreaded "handshake" must be made between the source and receiver and then between the receiver and the display to ensure HDCP compliance. HDCP is all about getting the signal from the source to the display without compromising copyright.

It seems you've quoted from Wiki. Also mentioned is this;
"Repeater
A repeater accepts content, decrypts it, then re-encrypts and retransmits the data. It may perform some signal processing, such as upconverting video into a higher-resolution format, or splitting out the audio portion of the signal. Repeaters have both HDMI inputs and outputs. Examples include home theater audio-visual receivers that separate and amplify the audio signal, while re-transmitting the video for display on a TV. A repeater could also simply send the input data stream to multiple outputs for simultaneous display on several screens.[11]"

My guess is that the Emotiva can't re-encrypt the signal for sending over an analog cable, and therefore wouldn't be "allowed" to send the signal because it's not HDCP compliant.

If I've got it wrong let me know.

Cheers.

Yes, the handshake is between each link in the chain. The intention being that at no point in the chain "should" you be able to copy the unencrypted digital information. You can daisy chain the digital data down as long a chain of devices as you like (Ex: disk -> player -> repeater -> receiver -> switch -> display) but each device must use a key to both decrypt and encrypt
and is held to copyright law. It is even ok to store (a form of copy) the digital data (Ex: DVR) and manipulate it (Ex: overlay). Just as long as you don't create a unencrypted digital copy.

The point is that it is not necessary to re-encrypt the signal if it is converted to analog. If at any point in the chain the digital data is converted to analog (any form of analog, and component is one form of analog) there is no need to encrypt it (basically because there is no legally enforced form of analog encryption.)

The only reason HDCP exists is because the quality of HD material is so close to the digital master that it can be replicated with no loss of quality. The movie industry is gun shy because of the amount of DVD pirating in the world. DVD is a very good digital quality, but HD is more than 4x the quality of DVD and is good enough to actually represent a digital master.

Hope this helps, I too am sorry for hijacking the thread.
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post #1083 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

I have an 1800 and the new 3900 is so much better its not even close...

If I were buying now I would definitely get the 3900, but a year ago the 3800 didn't seem to have much more that I wanted over the 1800.

But apart from features, what about the sound quality? Is it fair to say there's not a big difference from the 1800 to the 3900? (the design and components are certainly very similar).
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post #1084 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I'd still like to know if the 1900/3900 channel indicators work correctly with DTS-HD bitstreams. Surely someone is bitstreaming? Just check whether a DTS-HD MA 5.1 track shows 5.1 lights on the front panel, and not 7.1 (no need to test TrueHD as that was never a problem).

FWIW, my system displayed 6.1 on Wall-e using my Panny BD-35.

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post #1085 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 05:28 PM
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I have done a side by side comparison with the RXV1800 and RXV3900 and RXV3900 and RXV2700. In both cases the RXV3900 beat the two other receivers. In the case of the RXV2700 vs RXV3900 both were used only as pre/pro's with Bryston amplifcation and there was a clear difference between both units when using HDMI.

The RXV3900 has a blacker background with greater depth, imaging and detail. They might have also tweaked the gain as the RXV3900 doesn't have to be turned up as loud in order to get the same dB levels, again this couple be done through the gain stage.

My Demo material included SD DVD, and Blu Ray. The RXV3900 also has a darker tonality to it and to my surprise a richer more musical soundstage. I've even heard the RXV3900 through Totem speakers and it was the first time I thought Totem and Yamaha might work, normally they're a HORRIBLE match.

I encourage everybody to do an A/B comparison. The larger CAPS and digital reclocking circuit in the RXV3900 might have something to do with the improved audio performance. To my ears and others there is a clear difference.
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post #1086 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

Input selection? I thought we were referring to the volume display?

Perhaps you missed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

What I find even more infuriating than the volume, is that the most common reason I glance at my receiver is to verify what input source is selected. This is relegated to a tiny string of text with a tiny arrow next to the selected input. The size of the text? About the same size as typical newspaper or magazine print, for Pete's sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

The input selection is easily readable right on the remote.

Wrong. That display indicates what input you last asked for from the remote, not what input your receiver is actually currently on. It is not a two way remote which receives data from the receiver, as found on some upscale designs. As I'm sure you know, IR commands from remotes sometimes fail due to obstructions, poor aiming of the remote by the user, accidental keystrokes putting the remote into an errant mode/input indication while the receiver was off, etc. Additionally, if anyone else in the house has operated the receiver from its front control panel instead, that "DVR" indicator light shown on your remote may very well not be the input the receiver is actually on, adding even more frustration as to why it isn't working properly.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1087 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulabula View Post

FWIW, my system displayed 6.1 on Wall-e using my Panny BD-35.

That helps, but I can't compare with my 1800 because the Canadian version of Wall-E (which I have) seems to have a 5.1 DTS-HD MA track, not 6.1. When bitstreamed from a Panny BD-35 my signal info says 5.1, but the channel indicator lights show 7.1 as usual.
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post #1088 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

Ditto, I wish I could turn it totally off...I already have it as dim as it will go (-4)

You might try black electrical or gaffer's tape. That should do the trick. Peels right off if you ever want to sell it.
Quote:


I think one of the buttons on the remote even allows you to toggle the large letter display to show DSP Modes or Input source

Nope, not input. [To the best of my knowledge at least, I don't own one.]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1089 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

Perhaps you missed:



Wrong. That display indicates what input you last asked for from the remote, not what input your receiver is actually currently on. It is not a two way remote which receives data from the receiver, as found on some upscale designs. As I'm sure you know, IR commands from remotes sometimes fail due to obstructions, poor aiming of the remote by the user, accidental keystrokes putting the remote into an errant mode/input indication while the receiver was off, etc. Additionally, if anyone else in the house has operated the receiver from its front control panel instead, that "DVR" indicator light shown on your remote may very well not be the input the receiver is actually on, adding even more frustration as to why it isn't working properly.

See the button on the remote on the bottom left corner?
Hit the one just above that, that reads "INFO" and see what your AVR displays in glorious Large Letters
Bet its your Input that's currently in use.

Hit it a second time to display the DSP program like Straight or Movie etc.
and right underneath that line the post processing like PLIIx etc...is displayed also in Large letters.



Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

You might try black electrical or gaffer's tape. That should do the trick. Peels right off if you ever want to sell it.

Nope, not input. [To the best of my knowledge at least, I don't own one.]

Black tape, now that's helpful

Your knowledge sucks then,
I own one and it does work ,
just confirmed it now.


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post #1090 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

See the button on the remote on the bottom left corner?
Hit the one just above that, that reads "INFO" and see what your AVR displays in glorious Large Letters
Bet its your Input that's currently in use.

Hit it a second time to display the DSP program like Straight or Movie etc.
and right underneath that line the post processing like PLIIx etc...is displayed also in Large letters.

Black tape, now that's helpful

Your knowledge sucks then,
I own one and it does work ,
just confirmed it now.

That's great news. If you hit it once does the AVR's front panel large indicator display keep the input selected displayed permanently or does it resort to something else after a few seconds? Thanks for testing it.

I use black tape both as a light block in my projection theater on displays/LEDs and as an IR window block when I have duplicate devices or ones that share certain similar IR codes that I don't want my remotes to accidentally cross operate. I guess you may think it looks tacky but I care pretty much only about performance.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1091 of 6044 Old 12-16-2008, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

That's great news. If you hit it once does the AVR's front panel large indicator display keep the input selected displayed permanently or does it resort to something else after a few seconds? Thanks for testing it.

I use black tape both as a light block in my projection theater on displays/LEDs and as an IR window block when I have duplicate devices or ones that share certain similar IR codes that I don't want my remotes to accidentally cross operate. I guess you may think it looks tacky but I care pretty much only about performance.

It's permanent until you hit the info button again,
so you can display whatever your preference dictates.

The RX-V3900 is without a doubt the best Yamaha I've had,
and my 7th Yammy receiver since my first, shortly after I graduated (class of 81')

It is ideal as a dedicated HT receiver in a hidden AV rack out of sight (no tape req'd)
because EVERY single piece of front panel info can be brought up On Screen
with either a short message display overlay or GUI menu overlay....without disrupting the content being played.

and yes kriktsemaj99, it sounds better than my previous 1800 too.
the Multi-Point YPOA, although still not flawless, is better if you have multiple seating positions in your room.
My main seat ,dead center, still sounds as good...but the two seats on either side no longer have a strong left/right bias from the side surrounds when compared to my old 1800.
I'm not sure how this is accomplished technically, but it is certainly noticeable.


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post #1092 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 01:22 AM
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Does the RX-V1900 model has improved GUI over the RX-V863/RX-V1800 models?
Thanks.
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post #1093 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

...The RX-V3900 is without a doubt the best Yamaha I've had...
and yes kriktsemaj99, it sounds better than my previous 1800 too.
the Multi-Point YPOA, although still not flawless, is better if you have multiple seating positions in your room.
My main seat ,dead center, still sounds as good...but the two seats on either side no longer have a strong left/right bias from the side surrounds when compared to my old 1800...

I'm sure the multi-point YPAO is an improvement, but your comment suggests that's really where the main improvement lies for you (though obviously sound quality is quite subjective). It should be possible to set up the 1800 with the same PEQ settings as the 3900 (I doubt the additional subwoofer PEQ bands of the 3900 are making the difference, but if they are then a separate equalizer for the sub would fix that).

It would be interesting to compare the PEQ settings for your 1800 and 3900 (assuming they were set up in the same room with the same speakers etc.). If you have your settings saved in files by Receiver Manager we could plot them both with PEQedit (or send me the files by PM if you want).
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post #1094 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postmessages View Post

Does the RX-V1900 model has improved GUI over the RX-V863/RX-V1800 models?
Thanks.

I'm afraid not (you can check the manuals if you want to compare them in detail). The 1900 has just a few minor changes from the 1800, wheras the 3900 has quite a lot of new features compared to the 3800.
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post #1095 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 06:42 AM
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kriktsemaj99:

You seem quite adamant in suggesting there are no audible differences even when others have told you there are and you have no 'subjective' reference's as you haven't listened.

I come from a two channel audio background where sound is more of a priority then spec's. I (as well as many other users, reviewers) have suggested there are clear audible differences. Just as there are audible differences within competing CD players, analog interconnects and amplifiers. There are different parts used within each receiver and each receiver is tuned differently that is not subjective, that is simply a fact. So all we are dealing with now is are those differences enough to alter the sound, my subjective opinion is that they have, my opinion has been shared by others. There is at least some sort of frame of reference. Ask Yamaha themselves and they will openly admit that the Z-7 for instance was tuned for a more laid back presentation to appeal to the other consumer. The RXV1900 was tuned for a more aggressive forward sounding experience.

It should be noted that my direct comparisons were done in the same room with exactly the same PEQ settings. I really don't want to open up a can of worms or turn this thread into that's snake oil and that's not but honestly how can you make assertions when you simply haven't listened....

Perhaps further responses should begin with...."My best guess....
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post #1096 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I'm sure the multi-point YPAO is an improvement, but your comment suggests that's really where the main improvement lies for you (though obviously sound quality is quite subjective). It should be possible to set up the 1800 with the same PEQ settings as the 3900 (I doubt the additional subwoofer PEQ bands of the 3900 are making the difference, but if they are then a separate equalizer for the sub would fix that).

It would be interesting to compare the PEQ settings for your 1800 and 3900 (assuming they were set up in the same room with the same speakers etc.). If you have your settings saved in files by Receiver Manager we could plot them both with PEQedit (or send me the files by PM if you want).

My room is still unfinished (no drywall yet) and under construction, and far from ideal as far as audio treatment goes. I still need to complete my bass traps in the rear corners because I'm getting some cancellation at my primary seating position. To compensate I have been running my subs hot (+4) and the complaint deptartment has let me know its been rattling the dishes in the kitchen cabinets one floor above and half a house away

If the bass traps dont help I may look into moving both subs out of the front and corner loading them instead.

I never used the receiver manager (for either AVR), sorry

All I can tell you for sure is when watching an HD concert performance,
sitting dead center, you feel an equal balance all around you...the sound stage created in front of you is fantastic! like a really good set of headphones "Puts You" right in the center of the performance.

THAT does not happen in my other two side seats using the 1800...and maybe it's not supposed to...BUT There is a an obvious left or right bias and you dont get as good of a balance or sound stage. If you look at my room layout you can see my speakers are toe'd in appropriately and I think its set up as good as I can for optimum performance. I really cant explain why, but the sound from my side chairs is "more like" my center seat with the 3900. No not the same...just better than with the 1800. Still obvious that you are off to one side of center if you close your eyes...but its not as obvious as the 1800.

I admit I dont fully understand how or why multi point calibration works for several seats in a room, but I'm guessing it brings a better balance to the room as a whole.

My room should probably be finished, and analyzed for frequency reflection points, nulls and peaks before I make a fair comparison of the the two AVR's.


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post #1097 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

My room is still unfinished (no drywall yet) and under construction, and far from ideal as far as audio treatment goes...

I wonder if it isn't better than you think. All that insulation between the joists that's not yet covered with hard reflective drywall. Maybe this is as good as it gets!

And RM for the 3900 is much easier to use now that it works over the network instead of RS232. If you get a chance it would still be interesting to see what the YPAO PEQ results look like (upload settings, save to file (it's in XML format), open file in PEQedit and view the filter response curves).
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post #1098 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I wonder if it isn't better than you think. All that insulation between the joists that's not yet covered with hard reflective drywall. Maybe this is as good as it gets!

And RM for the 3900 is much easier to use now that it works over the network instead of RS232. If you get a chance it would still be interesting to see what the YPAO PEQ results look like (upload settings, save to file (it's in XML format), open file in PEQedit and view the filter response curves).


My floor is still mostly painted concrete (area rugs are not thick) and my ceiling is still open and un-insulated.
I know my LFE (un-contained due to lack of drywall enclosed room) is bouncing around way too much because the whole house feels it more than I do in my center seat.
If I stand in any corner of my room the LFE just about knocks me over when it dips into the 20Hz-30Hz range


as far as RM goes, I dont even have a network connection (yet)


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post #1099 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 07:34 AM
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Sorry if this was previously discussed. When I change stations on my cable box, it can take up to a minute at times for sound to come through on the 3900. I need to turn up the volume to make the sound come back. It appears to be when I change from a station using stereo to one using surround (and vise versa) the sound disappears for about a minute. Any ideas how to resolve?
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post #1100 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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What connection are you using from your cable box to the 3900?

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post #1101 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 08:09 AM
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What connection are you using from your cable box to the 3900?

component and optical
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post #1102 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I heard of some other people having some audio glitches with cable boxes and optical. I would suspect it's a cable box glitch and not a 3900 glitch. Did you try a different optical input?

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post #1103 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I heard of some other people having some audio glitches with cable boxes and optical. I would suspect it's a cable box glitch and not a 3900 glitch. Did you try a different optical input?

No I haven't. I'll give it a shot.
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post #1104 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h8rplayer View Post

Sorry if this was previously discussed. When I change stations on my cable box, it can take up to a minute at times for sound to come through on the 3900. I need to turn up the volume to make the sound come back. It appears to be when I change from a station using stereo to one using surround (and vise versa) the sound disappears for about a minute. Any ideas how to resolve?

I have noticed the same thing with my 3900; and furthermore, it happens most when the tv programming changes from regular programming to commercials, or vice versa. I've only had the 3900 for a couple of weeks, and it got a little annoying after a day - my old Yamaha AVR didn't do this. I've gotten used to having the remote available to tap the volume button if it happens. I have Verizon FIOS tv with a QIP6416(?) DVR, and "was" using component cables and optical audio.

The other day, I upgraded fw to 1.04 and shifted over to HDMI, and it seemed to improve; but I'll withhold judgement for a few days.

I've also had it happen on BD disks when the sound processing changes between previews. I've got a Panny BD-35 (with latest fw) streaming bitstream hooked up using HDMI.

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post #1105 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulabula View Post

I have noticed the same thing with my 3900; and furthermore, it happens most when the tv programming changes from regular programming to commercials, or vice versa. I've only had the 3900 for a couple of weeks, and it got a little annoying after a day - my old Yamaha AVR didn't do this. I've gotten used to having the remote available to tap the volume button if it happens. I have Verizon FIOS tv with a QIP6416(?) DVR, and "was" using component cables and optical audio.

The other day, I upgraded fw to 1.04 and shifted over to HDMI, and it seemed to improve; but I'll withhold judgement for a few days.

I've also had it happen on BD disks when the sound processing changes between previews. I've got a Panny BD-35 (with latest fw) streaming bitstream hooked up using HDMI.

Wow, that would suck
for the record, my HDMI Motorola (3416) HD STB doesnt do any of that,
only resets the video resolution to 480 if my display gets turned off.


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post #1106 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2+2=5 View Post

Ask Yamaha themselves and they will openly admit that the Z-7 for instance was tuned for a more laid back presentation to appeal to the other consumer. The RXV1900 was tuned for a more aggressive forward sounding experience.

*Ahem* Source please.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #1107 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 10:50 AM
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Personally, I think audio (even video) is very subjective and totally up to the individual. For me...I would agree this is the best Yamaha I've owned, and this makes my third Yamaha AVR.

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post #1108 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulabula View Post

I have noticed the same thing with my 3900; and furthermore, it happens most when the tv programming changes from regular programming to commercials, or vice versa. I've only had the 3900 for a couple of weeks, and it got a little annoying after a day - my old Yamaha AVR didn't do this. I've gotten used to having the remote available to tap the volume button if it happens. I have Verizon FIOS tv with a QIP6416(?) DVR, and "was" using component cables and optical audio.

The other day, I upgraded fw to 1.04 and shifted over to HDMI, and it seemed to improve; but I'll withhold judgement for a few days.

I've also had it happen on BD disks when the sound processing changes between previews. I've got a Panny BD-35 (with latest fw) streaming bitstream hooked up using HDMI.

I'm using the Motorola DCT6200 for Comcast. I'll try th firmware update and see if things improve.
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post #1109 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2+2=5 View Post

kriktsemaj99:

You seem quite adamant in suggesting there are no audible differences even when others have told you there are and you have no 'subjective' reference's as you haven't listened.

I come from a two channel audio background where sound is more of a priority then spec's. I (as well as many other users, reviewers) have suggested there are clear audible differences. Just as there are audible differences within competing CD players, analog interconnects and amplifiers. There are different parts used within each receiver and each receiver is tuned differently that is not subjective, that is simply a fact. So all we are dealing with now is are those differences enough to alter the sound, my subjective opinion is that they have, my opinion has been shared by others. There is at least some sort of frame of reference. Ask Yamaha themselves and they will openly admit that the Z-7 for instance was tuned for a more laid back presentation to appeal to the other consumer. The RXV1900 was tuned for a more aggressive forward sounding experience.
...
Perhaps further responses should begin with...."My best guess....

I haven't claimed there will be no audible differences at all, just that there should not be significant differences (I think this started when I said the 1900 sound "should be essentially the same as" the 3900).

If you believe you can hear audible differences between analog interconnects (for example), then I'm not going to tell you it's just a placebo effect (even if I think that), but I would claim that any such difference would be small enough to be called "insignificant" by the vast majority of us here.

And I think all these Yamaha receivers have a ruler flat frequency response when EQ is turned off (as measured with test equipment), so if the 1900 is more forward than the Z7 it will be the way that YPAO sets up the EQ, and that is adjustable (and I haven't seen any evidence of it, but it's possible they did that).
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post #1110 of 6044 Old 12-17-2008, 01:43 PM
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I'm having a nightmare trying to decide on a good network AV receiver.

(I discounted the pioneer lx81/71 as it seems to be limited in HDMI switching functionality).

The main differences I can see on the denon 3808/3808A vs the yamaha rx-v3900 seem to be:

Denon 3808:
Flac support
Better OSD over HDMI
Audssey EQ etc. support (is this useful?)
Cheaper

Yamaha v3900
No flac support
Cumbersome OSD
Better sounding with music (is it significantly better?)
Dual HDMI out

Both seem to have got over the earlier reciever issues regarding HDMI (ie pass-through, BTB/WTW, HDMI 1.3a, 1080p/24, 120hz compatible, deep colour, HDMI upconversion etc)

Are there any other key differences and in particular limitations I should be aware of?

Any recommendations (and good prices - I'm in UK)

Thanks
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