"Official" RX-V1900/RX-V3900 Thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 07:23 AM
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Thanks everyone for replies-would anybody have additional pics of the GUI -I saw the one posted earlier in the thread- would love to see the cover art ability. Thanks again.
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post #1172 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiyosaya
"I downloaded the English version of the manual for the RX-Z7 and the notes on page 46 concern me.

They state:

When you play back DTS 96/24 sources with any sound field program, this unit applies the selected program without activating the DTS 96/24 decoder.

Huh?

Sampling frequencies higher than 48 kHz are sampled down to 48 kHz or lower and then the sound fields are applied.

Seems like interesting behavior for a flagship line receiver. I have a query in to Yamaha on this and have not yet gotten anything more than we will get back to you on it - though that response came from a real person.

I have to wonder what else besides video processing is going to distinguish this receiver over the 3900 to make it worth the extra cost.

I own an RX-V2500 now, and I was initially very excited about the RX-Z7; however, now I think I will wait for reviews before I make a final decision to purchase on. "



Hello:

I posted this on the audioholic forum, but I might get a faster response here. Does anyone have any comments on the sampling down of the frequencies when played with the sound field programs? This is also stated in the 3900 manual as well.

Unfortunately, this would be a deal breaker for me. I use the sound field programs exclusively when playing movies. I have a DSP-A1 and it is incredible. It would seem that buying the Z7 would be a lateral move for me since the DSP-A1 does 48kHz for the sound field programs already. I guess it would make more sense to buy a blueray player that decodes TrueDD and DTS Master and use the external decoder inputs. I would not be able to use the sound field programs, but that would put it even to the Z7. Comments would be appreciated.

Best,
SHunter
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post #1173 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shunter View Post

I posted this on the audioholic forum, but I might get a faster response here. Does anyone have any comments on the sampling down of the frequencies when played with the sound field programs? This is also stated in the 3900 manual as well.

I answer this in the Z7 thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post15389412

The measurements made by OttoElectronic on an 1800 proved exactly what is happening on that model, and the 1900/3900/Z7 have the same DSPs as the 1800 and would be expected to have the same limitations. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14664994 and the next 10 posts or so.
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post #1174 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I answer this in the Z7 thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post15389412

The measurements made by OttoElectronic on an 1800 proved exactly what is happening on that model, and the 1900/3900/Z7 have the same DSPs as the 1800 and would be expected to have the same limitations. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14664994 and the next 10 posts or so.

Thank you!! Very interesting read. Next question: do you find an audible difference in sound quality between the DTS Master's setting and the DTS Master's setting plus one of the movie sound fields (eg 70 mm Adventure for example)?

Best
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post #1175 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shunter View Post

Thank you!! Very interesting read. Next question: do you find an audible difference in sound quality between the DTS Master's setting and the DTS Master's setting plus one of the movie sound fields (eg 70 mm Adventure for example)?

Well, there's a very obvious difference in the sound when sound fields are applied. So much so (due to the effect itself, not the downsamplng) that it's probably harder to hear the underlying differences like sampling rate or bit depth.

I've played around with the sound fields, but I don't use them when watching actual movies. Some would say you shouldn't corrupt lossless sound with extra DSP processing, but I don't necessarily agree with that -- if you like the effect of the sound fields then the higher quality input of a lossless track should only produce a higher quality result after processing. Of course the downsampling to 48kHz does represent a real loss (in the rare cases that were 96kHz or higher), but is it big enough to be audible, I don't know.
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post #1176 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 10:35 AM
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Looking at the 1900 and have a few questions for anyone that can help. I just bought a Sony BDPS550 player. My tv is an older Mitsu WS-65907 that still has an amazing picture. If I hook up the BD to the 1900 with HDMI, will the 1900 output at least a 1080i picture to the mitsu over component cables? I do not have an HDMI connector on the back of the TV because of its age. My TV only has one set of inputs for 1080i. If the 1900 will put out at least a 1080i picture, then I will be fine. I know its not 1080P, but I can't upgrade the TV just yet. Any thought on the HDFury2? Does it just down convert a 1080p signal to 1080i?

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post #1177 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin B View Post

Looking at the 1900 and have a few questions for anyone that can help. I just bought a Sony BDPS550 player. My tv is an older Mitsu WS-65907 that still has an amazing picture. If I hook up the BD to the 1900 with HDMI, will the 1900 output at least a 1080i picture to the mitsu over component cables? I do not have an HDMI connector on the back of the TV because of its age. My TV only has one set of inputs for 1080i. If the 1900 will put out at least a 1080i picture, then I will be fine. I know its not 1080P, but I can't upgrade the TV just yet. Any thought on the HDFury2? Does it just down convert a 1080p signal to 1080i?

The 1900 won't convert HDMI to component (it can only do component to HDMI). So with component from 1900 to TV, you must use a component connection from BD player to the 1900.

If you want HDMI from BD player to the 1900 for the lossless sound, I guess your next question is whether the S550 will send audio over HDMI while sending video over component directly to the TV? I don't know the answer to that.
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post #1178 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Well, there's a very obvious difference in the sound when sound fields are applied. So much so (due to the effect itself, not the downsamplng) that it's probably harder to hear the underlying differences like sampling rate or bit depth.

I've played around with the sound fields, but I don't use them when watching actual movies. Some would say you shouldn't corrupt lossless sound with extra DSP processing, but I don't necessarily agree with that -- if you like the effect of the sound fields then the higher quality input of a lossless track should only produce a higher quality result after processing. Of course the downsampling to 48kHz does represent a real loss (in the rare cases that were 96kHz or higher), but is it big enough to be audible, I don't know.

If it sounds good to the end user...than it's a moot point. Right?

I pretty much leave it in 'straight' mode with everything (I am assuming there is no processing going on). Occasionally I turn on PLIIx with a blu-ray.

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post #1179 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 02:08 PM
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I've read the numerous posts about the v3900 and the HDMI problem with other devices (setting a low output resolution) and was wondering if the problem still occurs if you are not using the v3900 for video processing and just using the v3900 in "through" mode.

Thanks

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post #1180 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 06:28 PM
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^The only issue I know of is based around motorola cable boxes.

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post #1181 of 6052 Old 12-27-2008, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyMelon View Post

^The only issue I know of is based around motorola cable boxes.

I thought I also read that the problem existed with the tivo. I have a tivo s3 and that is one of my primary sources and the ones the wife would use most often. If the tivo is not a problem then great and if the problem doesn't occur when just passing the signal through with no processing then that will work as well. I currently had an older tv that only has component and a single DVI input so all my hdmi sources would have to go via the 3900 and then to the tv via a hdmi-->DVI converter cable. Anyway, thanks for the reply frosty

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post #1182 of 6052 Old 12-28-2008, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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My Tivo series 3 output resolution keeps being changed via some scenario I cannot identify. I don't have enough information to blame the 3900 though.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #1183 of 6052 Old 12-28-2008, 03:10 PM
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I just picked up the 3900 and have a noobie question (I read several posts and looked in the manual already!). I have Xbox 360 connected via HDMI and an iPod connected via YDS-11. How can I have the audio set to the iPod and the video set to Xbox?

Thx
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post #1184 of 6052 Old 12-28-2008, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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You can't. Unlike previous Yamaha receivers, they don't allow audio from a different source playing with video from another source. No one knows why the change.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #1185 of 6052 Old 12-29-2008, 06:18 AM
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so I have a question about the VRS scaling

I have the Pioneer Elite Pro-111FD and it does a great job at the 1080p24 3:3 conversion to 72fps and Blu-Ray movies look great - but 1080i to 1080p isnt so good and the same with 480i/p but 480i/p looks like crap for the most part and it fails some of the tests on DVE for the scrolling text and the race car with bleachers go in and out of pass/fail - some real actual video tests like with Gladiator it would go in and out of working correctly and would be smooth for a second and then not so smooth and back and forth

so I know that this VRS scaling will fix those problems

but what about the 1080p24 3:3 to 72fps, how will this be affected by this

I want the retro skin back please
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post #1186 of 6052 Old 12-29-2008, 12:12 PM
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I bought a RXV 3900 receiver and a Panasonic BD 35 Blu Ray player, all connected via HDMI. this is being fed via HDMI to two Sony HDTV's, (KDL46XBR6 and KDL22L4000). I get video/audio on both TV's. When I play a movie that is DD equipped and only one TV on, the RXV 3900 properly shows the DD decoding. When I turn on the second tv, the RXV 3900 changes to Pro Logic. Any resason why this happens? It does not matter what TV is turned on or off, as long as only one is on.

Also, in the living room, I have a RXV 4600 feeding a Sony KDL 52XBR6 via HDMI. It works well when I use the upper HDMI input (#1, I think), but when I use the lower HDMI input (#2 I think) on the RXV 4600, I get nothing and no HDMI indicator on the front panel. Yes I realize that the RXV 4600 is HDMI 1.1 only. Any ideas? Does the #1 HDMI jack take presidence?

I need the second HDMI input, as I have Direct TV doing a HD install tomorrow and I want to use it for their HD receiver!


Thanks in advance,

Skip
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post #1187 of 6052 Old 12-29-2008, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strandbiker1 View Post

When I turn on the second tv, the RXV 3900 changes to Pro Logic. Any resason why this happens? It does not matter what TV is turned on or off, as long as only one is on.

Some sort of HDMI negotiation thing I guess. Turning on HDMI audio out can cause some issues. For example, if I turn on HDMI audio out, my Tivo will immediately switch to two channel PCM from Dolby Digital. I am surprised you ever get DD, in fact

HDMI passthrough may work as expected if you need TV audio.

Quote:


Also, in the living room, I have a RXV 4600 feeding a Sony KDL 52XBR6 via HDMI. It works well when I use the upper HDMI input (#1, I think), but when I use the lower HDMI input (#2 I think) on the RXV 4600, I get nothing and no HDMI indicator on the front panel. Yes I realize that the RXV 4600 is HDMI 1.1 only. Any ideas? Does the #1 HDMI jack take presidence?

I don't know. Are your inputs assigned correctly? I don't know how the 4600 works.

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post #1188 of 6052 Old 12-29-2008, 01:44 PM
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"I've read the numerous posts about the v3900 and the HDMI problem with other devices (setting a low output resolution) and was wondering if the problem still occurs if you are not using the v3900 for video processing and just using the v3900 in "through" mode."
-----------------------------------

In my experience, the problem occurs with any source that the Yamaha can reset. I've purchased and tried the 3800, 3900, and rx-Z7. As the 3800 has no processing, it never had the problem. The 3900 and Z7 both do it with my Samsung blu-ray and with my Verizon (motorola) cable box and Elite 60" Kuro. Processing makes no difference. I've tried w/ and w/o processing, and also tried leaving hdmi through on when the receiver is off- no difference.

As an installer, I can't use this receiver because I can't ask my customers to take the 22 steps necessary to reset their cable box to 1080i every time they watch TV. For myself, I wrote a 50+ step macro (including delays) for my Universal msc400. After playing with timings over several revisions I now have a reliable "fix" for the problem- a button press on my MX6K remote triggers the macro sequence that resets the cable box. But this is no substitute for Yamaha getting a real firmware fix for this issue. I'm a Yamaha dealer but I'll have to go to another brand for customers until this is fixed. It is otherwise a great product, but how do you ask your wife, kids, or mother-in-law to reset the box every time they watch TV?
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post #1189 of 6052 Old 12-29-2008, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danharr View Post

... But this is no substitute for Yamaha getting a real firmware fix for this issue. I'm a Yamaha dealer but I'll have to go to another brand for customers until this is fixed...

Have Yamaha acknowledged it's their problem and promised a fix?
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post #1190 of 6052 Old 12-29-2008, 02:46 PM
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^I'm no expert but I think part of the problem is "fixing it" for one brand then "breaks it" for another. If they set the protocol to work properly on his Kuro it then fails on another guy's Sony, for example.

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post #1191 of 6052 Old 12-29-2008, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taketheredpill9 View Post

I just picked up the 3900 and have a noobie question (I read several posts and looked in the manual already!). I have Xbox 360 connected via HDMI and an iPod connected via YDS-11. How can I have the audio set to the iPod and the video set to Xbox?

Thx

There is a way to do this according to what I have read in the manual.

What you would do is hook up the iPod to the front left and right analog 7.1 inputs and hook up the Xbox like regular. There is a mode that lets you use the video from any of the inputs to the audio of the multichannel input. Sounds confusing at first and I am not sure if your iPod dock will work for this but it is one way to do it.

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post #1192 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 08:53 AM
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I've had my RX-V3900 for about a month now and was wondering if anyone else was experiencing two issues I'm having:

1) Using the iPod dock, album art is not displayed. I see a music note where the art should be, and the display flashes "Loading..." for a moment.

2) After the receiver has been on for a while, any on-screen display (menu, volume indicator, etc.) will sometimes flash/bounce momentarily. I've tried enabling and disabling HDMI processing to no avail. (My setup is all HDMI.)

Quite frustrating for such an expensive receiver (which I'm otherwise very happy with)... hopefully there are workarounds or these can be fixed with firmware upgrades. I am also hoping for major improvements in navigation through network music.
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post #1193 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadziedzic View Post

I've run into an oddity with my new 3900 that seems confusing. Can anyone shed light on this?

I've found that disabling the "Monitor Check" feature in the Advanced Setup screen allows me to specify 1080i for the analog->HDMI conversion, and my Comcast Moto STB does display at that resolution. My suspicion is that the DVI blade is either not reporting correct EDID data to the RX or the RX doesn't understand something in that EDID data.
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post #1194 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 09:38 AM
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I am about to buy the 3900 and was wondering how the HD audio formats from a blu ray player is shown on the display on the amp when it is fed by bitstream or pcm.??Does it say TRUE HD or HD DTS or whatever?
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post #1195 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 12:34 PM
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My Motorola Cox Cable box resets the resolution down to 480p whenever the receiver is powered off like others have reported. But my question is are there any Motorola cable boxes that are not doing this? I would love to find out and then maybe I could exchange mine at the cable store.

I think it would be good to gather a list of model numbers that are having this issue. I'll post mine when I get home.
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post #1196 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 02:28 PM
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For those seeing the cable box resolution reset issue, does it make any difference if you power off the cable box first? It seems odd that the RX would be "telling" the cable box to change resolution; I would think the cable box is instead reacting to something the RX does on power down. Does the HDMI protocol allow for the display device to control the "sending device" (the STB) parameters? I have a spare HDMI cable rotting around, and I may play a bit with my setup when I have a bit of spare time.

Tony
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post #1197 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ta-kid View Post

I am about to buy the 3900 and was wondering how the HD audio formats from a blu ray player is shown on the display on the amp when it is fed by bitstream or pcm.??Does it say TRUE HD or HD DTS or whatever?

If you send PCM, the display will say MPCM. If you send bitstream, it should indicate what format is being sent. I can't tell you exactly what it says, because my PS3 can't bitstream.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #1198 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadziedzic View Post

For those seeing the cable box resolution reset issue, does it make any difference if you power off the cable box first? It seems odd that the RX would be "telling" the cable box to change resolution; I would think the cable box is instead reacting to something the RX does on power down. Does the HDMI protocol allow for the display device to control the "sending device" (the STB) parameters? I have a spare HDMI cable rotting around, and I may play a bit with my setup when I have a bit of spare time.

Tony

As I understand it, the receiver should provide an EDID block to the source device. The source device would then determine what formats were supported. Someone published some data on what the the Z7 or 3900 was sending, but I did not understand what data in that block would cause the source device to get "confused." One thing that did seem to be apparent was that the 3900 was sending different information that the display by itself would send.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #1199 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 03:19 PM
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Well I finally have the 3900 hooked up and I love it (previously had the v2500 in its place). Regarding the HDMI resolution switching issue, I haven't tested all devices yet, but my Tivo S3 gets switched from "Native" output to "1080i fixed" when the 3900 is shut off and back on (the max my tv supports is 1080i). I currently have the v3900 video processing "on" for all sources. I'll report back later on the PS3 and the JVC DVHS and see if they are having their resolutions changed.

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post #1200 of 6052 Old 12-30-2008, 03:37 PM
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Though I would have to do some additional testing such as running the HDMI directly from the STB to the tv, most of the info I have so far points to the Motorolla box itself. I can cycle the power to my box on and off and there is no problem. I can turn my 3900 on and off and there is no problem. I see the STB momentarily flash but it stays in 1080i. I can turn my tv off and it stays in 1080i (Kuro 151 if it matters) The moment I turn my tv on and the box flashes it goes back to 480p. Power cycling the tv is the thing that resets my box. Also if I switch actual input sources on my tv and go back it resets my box. It is easier to just have all the HDMI out from the receiver into a single tv input. I have no other issues with blu-ray or anything else.

As for the person with the 22 step process this would not be the case with all STB's. It may be for yours but not everyones. In my case all I have to do is turn the power off to the box, hit the settings button, push down and then right 2 times to cycle back to 1080i. Then just push the settings button again and power it back on. Since this happens everytime I power up the tv and I expect it to happen I have gotten used to it and since the box displays this info I am able to complete the process in as little as 5 seconds. In fact it is so easy I am done with the process before my receiver is even fully out of standby mode and producing a picture on my Kuro anyway. I would like to not have to do it but it is a very minor inconvenience and basically one of my only hiccups in my entire setp. With an issue this small for my own particular setup it really isn't that bad.

Considering the firmware update completed cured my audio delay and audio dropouts I am very pleased with everything. Maybe this weekend I will take HDMI directly from the STB to my tv and power cycle it to see what happens but even if it cures it I won't leave it set up that way. It would the same amount of time switching inputs on my tv as it is to just switch the resolution on my STB. Also as mentioned before switching inputs on my tv seems to reset it as well so I wouldn't really gain anything.
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