Harman Kardon AVR 7550HD (2008 announcement) - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 11:59 AM
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Chris, glad to see you here.

"Dynamic EQ and Dolby Volume are solving completely different problems."

Per below cut-and-paste from Dolby site, DV is addressing loudness compensation as well as volume changes.

As you said, it does do it per freq band.

"Low-Volume Compensation

As volume decreases, human hearing becomes less sensitive to bass and treble. There have been many attempts to compensate for this, most notably the "loudness" button on many receivers.

The problem is that most low-volume compensation techniques simply (and inaccurately) apply a fixed bass and treble boost as you lower the volume. They don't take into account what's happening within the audio signal and individual frequency bands, nor do they account for content. This standardized approach can make explosions and car crashes sound muddy, while cymbals and laser blasts sound tinny.

Dolby Volume Diagram

Dolby Volume monitors and adjusts perceived loudness in up to 40 frequency bands per channel based on the content in those bands. It's far more intelligent than a simple bass and treble boost.

By monitoring discrete frequencies, and the content within those frequencies, Dolby Volume makes adjustments only where necessary. The result is a more natural, true-to-the-original listening experience all the time."

Noah
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post #122 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Chris, glad to see you here.

"Dynamic EQ and Dolby Volume are solving completely different problems."

Per below cut-and-paste from Dolby site, DV is addressing loudness compensation as well as volume changes.

As you said, it does do it per freq band.

"Low-Volume Compensation

As volume decreases, human hearing becomes less sensitive to bass and treble. There have been many attempts to compensate for this, most notably the "loudness" button on many receivers.

The problem is that most low-volume compensation techniques simply (and inaccurately) apply a fixed bass and treble boost as you lower the volume. They don't take into account what's happening within the audio signal and individual frequency bands, nor do they account for content. This standardized approach can make explosions and car crashes sound muddy, while cymbals and laser blasts sound tinny.

Dolby Volume Diagram

Dolby Volume monitors and adjusts perceived loudness in up to 40 frequency bands per channel based on the content in those bands. It's far more intelligent than a simple bass and treble boost.

By monitoring discrete frequencies, and the content within those frequencies, Dolby Volume makes adjustments only where necessary. The result is a more natural, true-to-the-original listening experience all the time."

NOAH..
There are 2 things going on here..
One deals with the dynamic range levels, and the other has to do with dynamic equalization. For example when, there is a high level signal and the dynamic range processor kicks in and reduces this then some subtle EQing on the frequency extremes is done which greatly helps the tonal balance. For Dolby Volume, they use different settings depending upon the source stream. We find that that Dolby Volume helps with the levels (less EQ required) like when flipping through the channels on our Comcast HD tuner box. Whereas when we are listening to a Blu-ray (F&F 4) late at nite and we don't want to disturb others who are sleeping Dolby Volume does a great job on the dynamic range levels plus adding the EQ balancing.

We were comparing the Dolby Volume to the Audessey for different tracks (F&F 4) and found that the Audessey did in fact handle the levels fine but...
The soundstage seemed to collapse for the special effects when the cars were doing the final chase through the tunnel. Whereas Dolby Volume monitored the levels but the soundstage stayed wide with significant separation between the front and surrounds. What we preferred with Dolby Volume is that we still enjoyed the full 5.1 experience even when the levels were brought down.

I don't have access to the high-tech lab gear but perhaps Chris can do some comparisons of Audessey vs. Dolby Volume to better explain why we are hearing such a significant difference..

Just my $0.015..
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post #123 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

NOAH..
There are 2 things going on here..
One deals with the dynamic range levels, and the other has to do with dynamic equalization. For example when, there is a high level signal and the dynamic range processor kicks in and reduces this then some subtle EQing on the frequency extremes is done which greatly helps the tonal balance. For Dolby Volume, they use different settings depending upon the source stream. We find that that Dolby Volume helps with the levels (less EQ required) like when flipping through the channels on our Comcast HD tuner box. Whereas when we are listening to a Blu-ray (F&F 4) late at nite and we don't want to disturb others who are sleeping Dolby Volume does a great job on the dynamic range levels plus adding the EQ balancing.

We were comparing the Dolby Volume to the Audessey for different tracks (F&F 4) and found that the Audessey did in fact handle the levels fine but...
The soundstage seemed to collapse for the special effects when the cars were doing the final chase through the tunnel. Whereas Dolby Volume monitored the levels but the soundstage stayed wide with significant separation between the front and surrounds. What we preferred with Dolby Volume is that we still enjoyed the full 5.1 experience even when the levels were brought down.

I don't have access to the high-tech lab gear but perhaps Chris can do some comparisons of Audessey vs. Dolby Volume to better explain why we are hearing such a significant difference..

Just my $0.015..

M Code,

When you are doing your comparisons between Dolby Volume and Audyssey EQ how are you doing it? Do you have two seperate receivers setup so that you can do a quick A-B comparison or is it off memory? Are there different settings for each that are comparable when tested? Such as night modes for each that are similar between the two.

I am in no way doubting your findings just curious on how the testing was done. Is this testing a casual thing or a industry (HK?) comparison between competing systems?

Bill

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post #124 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 02:03 PM
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Still have no idea where I can buy one. Does Atlanta have a direct store?
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post #125 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLKstudios View Post

Still have no idea where I can buy one. Does Atlanta have a direct store?

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_br...7550HD&status=

~kyle
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post #126 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 04:25 PM
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Thanks ~kyle.
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post #127 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

M Code,

When you are doing your comparisons between Dolby Volume and Audyssey EQ how are you doing it? Do you have two seperate receivers setup so that you can do a quick A-B comparison or is it off memory? Are there different settings for each that are comparable when tested? Such as night modes for each that are similar between the two.

I am in no way doubting your findings just curious on how the testing was done. Is this testing a casual thing or a industry (HK?) comparison between competing systems?

Bill

Bill...
My father-in-law bought a 3310 2 weeks ago and I need to hook it up for him. Since I have not installed a Denon AVR for the last 3 years I decided to connect it up through my loudspeakers to become familiar with the menus and setup. It was straight forward to setup however but I would suggest that Denon needs to simplify some of their OSD screens, manual and diagrams as the HK was significantly easier to run and understand.

In my own HT system I have installed the 7550HD and am continually floored on How well the Dolby Volume feature works...
Even on the 7550HD, Dolby Volume and its various modes are accessible with a single button. Very slick interface.

We had seen some of the posts about Audyssey Volume & Dynamic EQ and thought we would check it out while we were learning the 3310. We had already run certain Blu-ray content such F&F 4 so we were familiar on how well Dolby Volume handled this. So after setting up the 3310, we then tried F&F 4 running through the 3310. Note that I am not able to do a quick A vs. B as I need to connect the loudspeakers, Comcast HD box and BD60 Blu-ray.

So my comments were from my personal experiences with Dolby Volume and Audyssey. As I think in today's CE market often 1 feature get hyped over another yet there may be little objective basis supporting those claims. Plus it is next to impossible to find a retailer and/or knowldegible staff to explain things. And the same holds true for comparing the various Room EQ software of YPAO, MAAC, Trinnov, Audyssey, EZSet/EQ...

It would be awesome if some AV publication/testing lab did their own comparsions for the different EQ schemes plus the dynamic range options. This would not be hard to do as the lab could use the respective brand's AVR's 5.1 Pre-Outs to drive 3rd party amplifiers and loudspeakers so the only variable is Pre-Amp processor's front end and software. Then the everyday HT user could better compare the subject results for themselves...

Just my $0.015...
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post #128 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 05:54 PM
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Will DV do dynamic equalization w/o dynamic range compression?

Noah
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post #129 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Bill...
My father-in-law bought a 3310 2 weeks ago and I need to hook it up for him. Since I have not installed a Denon AVR for the last 3 years I decided to connect it up through my loudspeakers to become familiar with the menus and setup. It was straight forward to setup however but I would suggest that Denon needs to simplify some of their OSD screens, manual and diagrams as the HK was significantly easier to run and understand.

In my own HT system I have installed the 7550HD and am continually floored on How well the Dolby Volume feature works...
Even on the 7550HD, Dolby Volume and its various modes are accessible with a single button. Very slick interface.

We had seen some of the posts about Audyssey Volume & Dynamic EQ and thought we would check it out while we were learning the 3310. We had already run certain Blu-ray content such F&F 4 so we were familiar on how well Dolby Volume handled this. So after setting up the 3310, we then tried F&F 4 running through the 3310. Note that I am not able to do a quick A vs. B as I need to connect the loudspeakers, Comcast HD box and BD60 Blu-ray.

So my comments were from my personal experiences with Dolby Volume and Audyssey. As I think in today's CE market often 1 feature get hyped over another yet there may be little objective basis supporting those claims. Plus it is next to impossible to find a retailer and/or knowldegible staff to explain things. And the same holds true for comparing the various Room EQ software of YPAO, MAAC, Trinnov, Audyssey, EZSet/EQ...

It would be awesome if some AV publication/testing lab did their own comparsions for the different EQ schemes plus the dynamic range options. This would not be hard to do as the lab could use the respective brand's AVR's 5.1 Pre-Outs to drive 3rd party amplifiers and loudspeakers so the only variable is Pre-Amp processor's front end and software. Then the everyday HT user could better compare the subject results for themselves...

Just my $0.015...

M Code,

Thank you for your thoughts! I agree that it would be cool if there was a A/V publication that is not swayed by the usual things that could put out a comparison test of all the big room correction systems and dynamic range systems. It would be very interesting for sure.

I was looking through the 7550HD manual and it looks to be a pretty impressive receiver.

On page 30 it mentions:

"During the Near Field test, follow the instructions that appear on
screen. You may be directed to hold the microphone about 2 feet
away from some speakers."

Could you shed some light on that part of the EzSet EQ process.


On page 33 it mentions how Dolby Volume will:

"NOTE: Dolby Volume is compatible with sources recorded
at a sampling rate of 48kHz. High-resolution sources, such as
DTS 96/24, will be decoded at 48kHz. DTS 96/24 programs
will be played in DTS 5.1 mode. To hear DTS 96/24 materials
in high resolution, turn off Dolby Volume."

Does this also apply for DTS-MA or TrueHD? If it does do you suggest turning Dolby Volume off when listening to HD audio encoded tracks?

Thanks again, Bill

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post #130 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

So my comments were from my personal experiences with Dolby Volume and Audyssey. As I think in today's CE market often 1 feature get hyped over another yet there may be little objective basis supporting those claims. Plus it is next to impossible to find a retailer and/or knowldegible staff to explain things. And the same holds true for comparing the various Room EQ software of YPAO, MAAC, Trinnov, Audyssey, EZSet/EQ...

It would be awesome if some AV publication/testing lab did their own comparsions for the different EQ schemes plus the dynamic range options. This would not be hard to do as the lab could use the respective brand's AVR's 5.1 Pre-Outs to drive 3rd party amplifiers and loudspeakers so the only variable is Pre-Amp processor's front end and software. Then the everyday HT user could better compare the subject results for themselves...

I understand the idea of a limited variable comparison to various EQ-ing technologies. But, doesn't the amplifier section have an affect on the overall audio quality (more specifically its dynamic ability)?

In another thread, we "discussed" the high current label found on most HK's, and a few other models (Integra also lists a high current capable "spec" on some of their AVR's), including what high current means, and what it actually does.

Though it appeared no one could say for sure what makes an amp "high current" compared to any other amp, there did seem to be a consensus that it somehow "stores electrons" for those peak moments.

My point here, is that testing using the same amp, (although it accomplishes limiting one of the variables), also changes the overall design of a higher end AVR. In short, all the parts should be designed to work as a single unit, not just a bunch of random parts slung together to create an expensive looking box.

eta Found HK's definition:

High Current Design: An amplifier that is able to supply the electrical current demanded by a reactive, low impedance driver, while maintaining output voltage.
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post #131 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 09:16 PM
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All I know is Dynamic Volume had a lot of hype and it seems most people were let down a bit on it's performance. I hope Dolby Volume brings more to the table
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post #132 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

M Code,

Thank you for your thoughts! I agree that it would be cool if there was a A/V publication that is not swayed by the usual things that could put out a comparison test of all the big room correction systems and dynamic range systems. It would be very interesting for sure.

I was looking through the 7550HD manual and it looks to be a pretty impressive receiver.

On page 30 it mentions:

"During the Near Field test, follow the instructions that appear on
screen. You may be directed to hold the microphone about 2 feet
away from some speakers."

Could you shed some light on that part of the EzSet EQ process.

The HK EZSet/EQ as implemented with the 7550HD has 2 crucial steps; step #1 measures each loudspeaker @ Near Field, step #2 measures each loudspeaker @ Far Field (listener's position). Their logic is that step #1 measures/defines the loudspeaker specs (response, sensitivity) without the room effects. Step #2 measures the loudspeakers specs plus the room effects. Then the DSP calculates the appropriate AVR transfer function, another interesting point is for the dual subwoofers. Also since the low frequencies are the most crucial are very dependent upon the room, wall materials, size.. The DSP adjusts the peaks/resonances by cutting rather than boosting the frequencies, this saves DSP headroom (MIPs) for decoding.

Here the influences and contribution of Dr.Toole are evident..

Quote:


On page 33 it mentions how Dolby Volume will:

"NOTE: Dolby Volume is compatible with sources recorded
at a sampling rate of 48kHz. High-resolution sources, such as
DTS 96/24, will be decoded at 48kHz. DTS 96/24 programs
will be played in DTS 5.1 mode. To hear DTS 96/24 materials
in high resolution, turn off Dolby Volume."

Does this also apply for DTS-MA or TrueHD? If it does do you suggest turning Dolby Volume off when listening to HD audio encoded tracks?

Thanks again, Bill

Dolby Volume has significant MIPs and memory requirements, so depending upon what other tasks the DSPs (2-DA710s) are doing, its processing is being done @44kHz/48kHz. If one is playing a loss-less HD stream @ 96kHz or 192 kHz (DTS MA or TrueHD)and wants the maximum resolution then one turns OFF Dolby Volume.
However...
Typical use cases for Dolby Volume would be when using the Cable HD Box or SAT tuner or late nite listening where the audio streams would be @ 48kHz or less..

Just my $0.015...
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post #133 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLKstudios View Post

I understand the idea of a limited variable comparison to various EQ-ing technologies. But, doesn't the amplifier section have an affect on the overall audio quality (more specifically its dynamic ability)?

Yes..
But the mentioned goal was to set up a review/evelaution process for ranking the Room EQ and Dynamic Range features. By using common amplifiers, there are less variables.

Quote:


In another thread, we "discussed" the high current label found on most HK's, and a few other models (Integra also lists a high current capable "spec" on some of their AVR's), including what high current means, and what it actually does.

Though it appeared no one could say for sure what makes an amp "high current" compared to any other amp, there did seem to be a consensus that it somehow "stores electrons" for those peak moments.

My point here, is that testing using the same amp, (although it accomplishes limiting one of the variables), also changes the overall design of a higher end AVR. In short, all the parts should be designed to work as a single unit, not just a bunch of random parts slung together to create an expensive looking box.

eta Found HK's definition:

High Current Design: An amplifier that is able to supply the electrical current demanded by a reactive, low impedance driver, while maintaining output voltage.

I would agree but if you don't remove the other variables and components, the final results would be random and not conclusive. This way the fixed performance specs of the common amplifiers are constant for all brands of Room EQ and Dynamic Range control. Also specific test measurements should be known/run for the common amplifiers, so when evaluating the final output results for each software test the influence of the amplifiers are known..


Just my $0.015...
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post #134 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Will DV do dynamic equalization w/o dynamic range compression?

Noah..
Dolby Volume has 2 components; the loader (EQ) and the leveler and there are adjustment thresholds for each. I recall the the loader can be switched out but not the leveler when Dolby Volume is activated....

Just my $0.015...
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post #135 of 1596 Old 09-01-2009, 11:54 PM
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Here's my personal version

High Current - Amplifier capable of driving a Quad ESL (57) without blowing up or going into protection mode....
(the old ESL's have an impedance curve that drops below 1ohm at some frequencies)
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post #136 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 12:51 AM
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I guess we'll have to wait for the new Onkyo's to hear a true A/B of Audyssey vs. Dolby Volume. I wonder if the Onk will have the same low sample rate limitation or if it will be able to perform at higher levels with 3 DSP's vs. 2 on the Harman.

ETA: So I was reading both the 7550 and the 5007 manuals and on the Onkyo it describes Dolby Volume: Half Mode

"The Half Mode parameter turns Dolby Volume Half Mode processing ON and OFF.
In OFF mode, Dolby Volume applies a bass and treble attenuation to the audio when the system gain exceeds
reference level. This enables a more perceptually flat listening experience as human ears are more sensitive to
bass and treble at higher levels. Some listeners however, prefer to have more bass and treble performance at
higher gain levels."

M-Code I couldn't find a reference to this mode on page 33 of the Harman manual, do you know if this option exists despite it being absent? Sounds like you can increase the effect to help cut those PITA hot commercials.


As an aside for Audyssey/Onkyo fans there is 2 new functions detailed on the page after Dolby Volume named Audyssey Reference Level and Audyssey Soundstage:

"Soundstage –3dB, –2dB, –1dB, Reference (default), +1dB, +2dB, +3dB
Adjusts the soundstage when using Audyssey Dynamic Surround Expansion™."

Sounds interesting, and would like to hear how they ultimately stack up against each other considering the pricing is very close.
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post #137 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 11:13 AM
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"I guess we'll have to wait for the new Onkyo's to hear a true A/B of Audyssey vs. Dolby Volume."

Aren't there several Onkyo's and Denon's already out that have Audussey Dynamic Volume and DynamicEQ?

Noah
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post #138 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I guess we'll have to wait for the new Onkyo's to hear a true A/B of Audyssey vs. Dolby Volume."

Aren't there several Onkyo's and Denon's already out that have Audussey Dynamic Volume and DynamicEQ?

The Denon AVR 3310CI has the Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ.
Thats the unit I compared to the 7550HD.

Just my $0.015..
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post #139 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 02:33 PM
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The new high-end Onkyo's will have both Audyssey Dynamic Volume AND Dolby Volume onboard. There is also the potential for the Onkyo to be able to process Dolby Volume at a higher sample rate since it has an additional DSP, for a total of 3 vs. 2 on the Harman.

My 3808 has Dynamic Volume and Eq that is nothing new. Point being that once the Onkyo's come out we'll be able to perform a true A/B comparison between the 2 volume processors. It makes the decision of which to buy easier since if you like one mode over the other, well there both there, so just use the one you like

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I guess we'll have to wait for the new Onkyo's to hear a true A/B of Audyssey vs. Dolby Volume."

Aren't there several Onkyo's and Denon's already out that have Audussey Dynamic Volume and DynamicEQ?

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post #140 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBDiver View Post

The new high-end Onkyo's will have both Audyssey Dynamic Volume AND Dolby Volume onboard. There is also the potential for the Onkyo to be able to process Dolby Volume at a higher sample rate since it has an additional DSP, for a total of 3 vs. 2 on the Harman.

My 3808 has Dynamic Volume and Eq that is nothing new. Point being that once the Onkyo's come out we'll be able to perform a true A/B comparison between the 2 volume processors. It makes the decision of which to buy easier since if you like one mode over the other, well there both there, so just use the one you like

# of DSPs is not the full story, you need to break out the type and MIPs.
For your info...
The Onkyo uses (3) 2 DA708 and 1 DA707, the HK uses (2) DA710s, however the DA710 has twice the processing power of a DA708.. So when calculating DSP power the HK has about 40% more processing power than the Onkyo.

Regarding the sampling rate..
Not a major point, as any Dynamic Range IP be it Audessey or Dolby is used for the compressed streams such as Internet Radio, Satellite Radio, iPod or TV audio from an HD set top box or Direct SAT tuner which are @ 44kHz... If one is going to listen to high sampling rate Blu-ray loss-less streams this feature should be turned OFF.

Just my $0.015...
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post #141 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 03:43 PM
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According to this info I found, it states the 708 and 710 have the same memory bandwidth with only an a 9 or 34 MHz upgrade in processor speed depending on which 710 model they're using. Then you have to add that the Onkyo has another 250 Mhz processor in addition.

"The new DA710 devices with 133 MHz memory interface are available now in an industry standard GDH package. The 300 MHz DA710 costs $21.63 each, while the 275 MHz DA710 costs $16.05 each, both in quantities of 10,000 or more. The 266 MHz DA708 with a 133 MHz memory interface is available in an RFP package and costs $13.52 each in quantities of 10,000 or more."

"The 250 Mhz DA707 rev.B"

Looks like the Onkyo has more power on paper, with 782 Mhz combined processing power vs. 600 Mhz (if Harman's using the 300's) onboard the Harman. Though ultimately it comes down to implementation which we won't know until the Onkyo is released and they can go head-to-head.


EDIT: I found a comparison chart on TI website, what looks interesting are the new 800 series chips with a DSP/Arm 9 processor combined that can handle USB, network, SD memory, and LCD graphics. Could make for some interesting devices.

Link to TI
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post #142 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 05:44 PM
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I think M Code was just pwned.
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post #143 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmax2k1 View Post

I think M Code was just pwned.

Except the 710 has a 32 bit interface and the 708 is 16 bit.

Quote:


Among the other notable differentiating features of the new units involves their external memory interface and high-speed interface. The DA710 has a 32bit external memory interface while the DA708 has a 16bit EMIF. The DA710 has a high-speed peripheral interface while the DA708 does not.

http://www.eetindia.co.in/ART_880038...P_3e0436ea.HTM

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post #144 of 1596 Old 09-02-2009, 09:57 PM
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Unless the interior design has changed since their first, or second (or third or fourth) prototype of one year ago (Sept. '08), the 7550HD has two TMS320DA710B's inside...

http://focus.ti.com/apps/docs/gencon...=14817&appId=1

...the basis is the 32/64 bit floating-point C6000™ DSP core.
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post #145 of 1596 Old 09-03-2009, 01:16 AM
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Well it looks like we won't even have to debate Harman's implementation of expanded EMIF or HPI, come to find out the specs M-Code listed for the Onkyo were off.

In fact the Onkyo 5007 has one of the new series DA8xx Dual Core ARM/DSP onboard along with 2 DA78x processors.

From Onkyo Europe: 32-bit Texas Instruments 'Aureus' DSP chips (1 x DA830, 2 x DA788)
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post #146 of 1596 Old 09-03-2009, 07:09 AM
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Honestly - for anyone that has spent a little time benchmarking computer systems, it is just not that simple!!

In days of yore I recall testing 2 (now museum pieces) computers an Apple II with Z80 CPU board running at 1.6MHz (if my memory serves...) against it was a newly release IBM PC running an 8088cpu at 4.77MHz (about 3x faster!) - The IBM also had faster RAM, and a newer OS....

We ran a Database benchmark using CPM DBASEII on the apple and MS-Dos DBASEIII on the IBM - to cut a long story short the apple would consistently wipe the floor with the IBM across a wide range of benchmarks.

The point of this vintage tale, is that CPU speeds don't tell you much and implementation is everything!

Given the same identical implementation with identical software and software versions - then CPU performance can become meaningful - but seing as none of us are about to try loading HK firmware onto an Onkyo box or vice versa, we will just have to test the end result - which is more meaningfull and satisfying anyway!

David
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post #147 of 1596 Old 09-03-2009, 01:08 PM
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This thread is beginning to sound like one about power output watts..

Suffice it to say that implementation is really the crucial factor, having the silicon DSP horsepower/headroom and memory are required as well..
If one is comparing processor speed they will know/understand the importance of memory interface, the DA710 having a 32 bit vs. the 16 bit (708) those can now understand its significance. The processor engine may be capable of doing a certain # of operations..
But..
If its memory interface is overloaded , gridlock time (like the 405 freeway @ 5:00PM) and the system slows down..
Or like trying to run Vista or Windows 7 on a 1 Gig Intel processor..

Another point is the # of DSPs, more is not always better..
Remember quality vs. quanitity, and if one does a search they will find a number of threads noting the significant latency issue within the Onkyo AVRs. Since the digital audio stream is routed through 3 different DSPs....
Basic reason 3 DSPs are used is cost...
The stepdown DSP (708) is significantly cheaper than a higher horsepower DSP (710)..

Now, lets get back to the primary issue...
Audyssey vs. Dolby....
Hopefully others will post their comments, even better a test lab will run an audible comparison with one of the new Onkyo platforms.....
Assuming their implementations are correct...

Just my $0.015..
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post #148 of 1596 Old 09-03-2009, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Now, lets get back to the primary issue...
Audyssey vs. Dolby....
Hopefully others will post their comments, even better a test lab will run an audible comparison with one of the new Onkyo platforms.....

The 5507 and possibly the 5007/3007 will have both Dolby Volume and Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Volume so a comparison would be much easier than swapping receivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code;17110637Regarding the sampling rate..
Not a major point, as any Dynamic Range IP be it [I
View Post

Audessey or Dolby[/i] is used for the compressed streams such as Internet Radio, Satellite Radio, iPod or TV audio from an HD set top box or Direct SAT tuner which are @ 44kHz... If one is going to listen to high sampling rate Blu-ray loss-less streams this feature should be turned OFF.

I do not see any mention in the 886 manual about Dynamic EQ/Volume having sampling rate limitations. Does Dynamic EQ/Volume have the same limitations as Dolby Volume? Onkyo might have decided not to mention it in the manual if in fact there are limitations.

You mention how one would want to turn off Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Volume when listening to HD audio on Bluray discs. I disagree with that somewhat as I watched State of Play the other day and had to keep the volume down. With Dynamic Volume on Light the dynamic range was much fuller opposed to not having it on and having to raise the volume for the same impact.

Dynamic EQ/Volume is a great feature for listening to ones system at less than reference level. So I can not see why one would not want to use it for late night listening or when high volumes are not possible with all audio formats.

Bill

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post #149 of 1596 Old 09-03-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

The 5507 and possibly the 5007/3007 will have both Dolby Volume and Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Volume so a comparison would be much easier than swapping receivers.



I do not see any mention in the 886 manual about Dynamic EQ/Volume having sampling rate limitations. Does Dynamic EQ/Volume have the same limitations as Dolby Volume? Onkyo might have decided not to mention it in the manual if in fact there are limitations.

You mention how one would want to turn off Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Volume when listening to HD audio on Bluray discs. I disagree with that somewhat as I watched State of Play the other day and had to keep the volume down. With Dynamic Volume on Light the dynamic range was much fuller opposed to not having it on and having to raise the volume for the same impact.

Dynamic EQ/Volume is a great feature for listening to ones system at less than reference level. So I can not see why one would not want to use it for late night listening or when high volumes are not possible with all audio formats.

Bill

Bill..
You need to check the thread back about 15 posts..

"Typical use cases for Dolby Volume would be when using the Cable HD Box or SAT tuner or late nite listening where the audio streams would be @ 48kHz or less.."

Regarding using either Audyssey or Dolby Volume full-time..
Even with loss-less Master Audio or TruAudio HD Blu-ray media.
One will lose some of the dynamics...
But the question is Is this loss audible to your ears?..
Also as mentioned when using the 3310 with Audyssey Dynamic Volume & EQ, the audible end-result to my ears was not good. To me, the entire collapse of the sound stage and loss of dynamics was not acceptable...

Just my $0.015...
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post #150 of 1596 Old 09-03-2009, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Bill..
You need to check the thread back about 15 posts..

"Typical use cases for Dolby Volume would be when using the Cable HD Box or SAT tuner or late nite listening where the audio streams would be @ 48kHz or less.."

Regarding using either Audyssey or Dolby Volume full-time..
Even with loss-less Master Audio or TruAudio HD Blu-ray media.
One will lose some of the dynamics...
But the question is Is this loss audible to your ears?..
Also as mentioned when using the 3310 with Audyssey Dynamic Volume & EQ, the audible end-result to my ears was not good. To me, the entire collapse of the sound stage and loss of dynamics was not acceptable...

Just my $0.015...

M Code,

When you listened to the 3310 what was the volume level? In your opinion there is a entire collaspe of the soundstage and loss of dynamics. At lower levels when Dynamic EQ/Volume is used I find the soundstage/imaging and dynamic range is better. If I am listening at close to reference level I turn it off.

Maybe the typical uses for Dolby Volume are as quoted above but I have seen no limitations by Audyssey on what Dynamic EQ/Volume should be used for.

I think you are missing my point and that is that Dynamic EQ/Volume a very useful feature at lower levels. Maybe it was not to your liking but many Onkyo/Denon owners with this feature seem to find it works quite well. You are the first I have heard mention that they find a loss of soundstage and dynamics when using Dynamic EQ/Volume. I actually find the results to be the opposite.

EDIT: I think I might know where I am misinterpeting your thoughts. With Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume working in tandem I was talking about using Dynamic EQ on its own as well as with Dynamic Volume. Have you tried Dynamic EQ on its own without Dynamic Volume on?

Bill

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