The "Official" Onkyo TX-SR876 Owners Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 5107 Old 12-10-2008, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekguy View Post

Remember though that we are speaking of reference a level in a theater, and clearly there is no agreement and much dis-agreement on the issue of whether that is a bit loud in the theater let alone in the living room. This is a difficult issue even without getting into questions about the mastering environment being different from both the theater and the home.

Moreover who made the engineer the arbiter of listening levels? One only has to play any of the more recent highly compressed uber-loud recordings to lose faith in the idea of intended levels having overmuch importance.

If we get overly concerned about listening at the intended levels we should likewise be concerned about viewing in the intended size. Not aspect ratio but size.

Having ranted all that, I do agree about the balance of lows and highs being conserved at lower levels. I think that rather than the absolute level is the key.

Yeah, I guess it is somewhat debateable, but I think the dynamic range coming from modern sound formats makes this an even more crucial issue. I have been watching movies at reference -9 or so lately and worry about my ears. But I hear detail that I simply don't hear at lower volumes. Things on the low end of the dynamic range, just don't get heard and/or have the impact when played at low volume (at least with my ears and setup).

The video comment is getting way OT, but I tend to look at the issue in regards to viewing angle. I try to match the viewing angle in my home to that of my favorite seat in a commercial theater. Yeah, my screen is a lot smaller, but the same amount of my vision's field of view is filled.

Have an Onkyo 805 receiver and having trouble setting up Audyssey? HERE is a mini how-to.Click HERE to check out my comparison review of 5 different projection screen fabrics.
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post #452 of 5107 Old 12-10-2008, 07:37 PM
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How are firmware updates done on the 876?
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post #453 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

jr.com usually lower than amazon.com jr $899(876B) amazon $915(876B)

Just got 876B at J&R: $836.07 delivered (after MS's live.com cashback)
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post #454 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad T View Post

... I think the dynamic range coming from modern sound formats makes this an even more crucial issue. I have been watching movies at reference -9 or so lately and worry about my ears. But I hear detail that I simply don't hear at lower volumes. Things on the low end of the dynamic range, just don't get heard and/or have the impact when played at low volume (at least with my ears and setup).

That is exactly why I like Dynamic EQ/Volume.
I can hear things at low voiumes that would only be heard at higher volumes otherwise.
I almost never listen at higher volumes than -20, late evenings watching TV,
I can use volumes at -60 to -50...
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post #455 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by russdog View Post

Just got 876B at J&R: $836.07 delivered (after MS's live.com cashback)

thats a steal how low can the prices go?
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post #456 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 01:03 PM
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My only question is what kind of freaks are you guys who have it set to Relative and not Absolute haha.

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post #457 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad T View Post

Yeah, I guess it is somewhat debateable, but I think the dynamic range coming from modern sound formats makes this an even more crucial issue. I have been watching movies at reference -9 or so lately and worry about my ears. But I hear detail that I simply don't hear at lower volumes. Things on the low end of the dynamic range, just don't get heard and/or have the impact when played at low volume (at least with my ears and setup).

The video comment is getting way OT, but I tend to look at the issue in regards to viewing angle. I try to match the viewing angle in my home to that of my favorite seat in a commercial theater. Yeah, my screen is a lot smaller, but the same amount of my vision's field of view is filled.

Yeah it was a bit much.

I think the concern for many of us is that when a movie or CD uses the full dynamic range it is hard to set a level that works for everyone, especially those who have a problem with dialog clarity. That said my wife who tends to run away from anything remotely loud, has asked me to raise the gain now that I am using Audyssey; she finds the dialog easier to understand and the higher average level less of an annoyance. What a deal, it works for both of us!

I have turned off the dynamic modes because of excessive boost at some frequencies (-20 db should not drive the sub to full excursion) but I hope to get help in the Audyssey thread.

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post #458 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 06:54 PM
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re: low prices.

I really like Vanns. They will always price-match other authorized dealers (like J&R). I love Amazon for most things, but would stay away from them for one of these.
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post #459 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ArnCapo View Post

How are firmware updates done on the 876?

It will be a miracle if we see firmware updates, but in the past Onkyo has required owners to ship (at their own expense) the units to a regional repair facility. Denver for example for those of us in the West. That would cost me $60.

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post #460 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hdtv00 View Post

My only question is what kind of freaks are you guys who have it set to Relative and not Absolute haha.

We are as a group, knowledgeable, well educated, cultured, suave boulevardiers with the savoir faire and emotional and intellectual depth to comprehend and appreciate the finer things.

We also understand logarithmic scales(or pretend to understand.)

Or we are geeks but I don't accept that!

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post #461 of 5107 Old 12-11-2008, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekguy View Post

It will be a miracle if we see firmware updates, but in the past Onkyo has required owners to ship (at their own expense) the units to a regional repair facility. Denver for example for those of us in the West. That would cost me $60.

What a cheap move! It might be enough to keep me from buying the unit.

Like an USB port and a firmware upgrade routine is a big additional expense to a $1700 AVR. It's forced obsolesce IMO.
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post #462 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by trekguy View Post

No you can watch them in 4x3.

Apologies but need to clarify - does the 875 pillar box 4x3 with grey bars or leave the sides black? Do you have to tweak the settings back and forth to maintain 4x3 while keeping 16:9 intact?

I read a comment on the 905 thread that said even the 906 had problems with 4x3 so I'm thinking I missed a nuance.

Thanks and Happy Holidays.

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post #463 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmaddock View Post

Apologies but need to clarify - does the 875 pillar box 4x3 with grey bars or leave the sides black? Do you have to tweak the settings back and forth to maintain 4x3 while keeping 16:9 intact?

I read a comment on the 905 thread that said even the 906 had problems with 4x3 so I'm thinking I missed a nuance.

Thanks and Happy Holidays.

The 876/906 works as designed with regards to 4x3.
For each individual video source input, you can specify a "zoom mode" for how
the video should displayed. So you could have "Full" set for DVD and "Normal"
for your cable box and so on.
What some people complain about is that the Onkyo's do not
detect what aspect ratio the source video has and then automagically adjust
the "Zoom Mode" accordingly. You have to adjust it manually in the menu.
Or make your video source pillarbox the material so you always get 16:9.
Any sidebars have been black from what I have seen.
See picture for zoom modes.
LL
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post #464 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 11:26 AM
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I have had the same confusion with the 4 x 3 material issue.

I just ordered an 876 to replace my 806 (because it was clipping BTB and driving me crazy while playing Call of Duty).

For something like my HD DVR, I'm assuming I can set my format on the HD DVR to "original" and then set my 876 to "Normal".

In this case, my 4 x 3 SD material will be displayed with black bars on the side in the correct ratio and my HD material will be displayed in 16 x 9. In other words, my HD DVR box will handle which ratio is sent to the 876 and the 876 will simply display the same without adjusting ratios.
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post #465 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 12:16 PM
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I had some troubles with the Zoom mode. I do now have it sorted, but it took me some time to figure out how I had to tweak my devices to get it to work properly. There was a 4:3 override setting in my Motorola PVR that needed adjustment. There was a setting in my Popcorn Hour A-110 that needed to be adjusted (however that setting was not there when I initially installed the PCH, it came in a firmware upgrade). I still have zoom mode issues with 4:3 SD DVDs played through my PS3, but that is incredibly rare, so I've never really fiddled with it.

Note that my experience has been that the 4:3 override setting in the Motorola PVR is reset to a default value every time the firmware in the PVR is updated. This has happened a couple of times for me, but it's obvious when it happens and easy to change it back.

The manual has an error in it as well as the picture linked above is fundamentally flawed.

Regarding the error in the manual: it indicates you can call up the Zoom menu in a quick way. You can't. This is an error in the manual. To get to the zoom menu, you have to go into setup. It's about a 14 click process that is not very accessible.

Regarding the flaw in the above linked picture from the manual: If you look at the picture the "full" diagram assumes that the 4:3 material is vertically distorted and using full mode will horizontally stretch it and make it appear normal. The reality is the opposite, the 4:3 material is fine but using full mode stretches it horizontally.

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post #466 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmaddock View Post

does the 875 pillar box 4x3 with grey bars or leave the sides black? Do you have to tweak the settings back and forth to maintain 4x3 while keeping 16:9 intact?

Paul, rickardl, accurately covers the issue. But there are variant approaches depending upon which device you select to do the deinterlacing. That is at the source device (player or DVR for example) at the receiver or at the display. The 906/876 will let you pass the program material to the display at the source resolution or up-convert it at the receiver.

The choice determines whether the bars are black, gray or if the image is distorted into 16x9.

I have elected not to change zoom settings on the 906, so depending on the source and whether is is HD or SD 4x3 it can be either gray or black bars.

I have an feed from the moto box to the PDP for those in the family who "just want to watch TV" and who like a full screen image. They get stretch-o-vision by default on SD channels. HD channels using black bars of course have black bars.

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post #467 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mmmccall View Post

I just ordered an 876 to replace my 806 (because it was clipping BTB and driving me crazy while playing Call of Duty)..

I just noticed this, and while I congratulate you on the 876, you will enjoy it, I'm not sure it will solve the clipping issue if you listen at a level where the loudest material drives the amp to max output.

The 806 and 876 have a tightly regulated power supplies that afford very little headroom.

The 806-- 130wpc vs. 150wpc "dynamic" an increase of only +0.62dB. That is not audible under most conditions.

The 876 -- 140wpc vs. 160 "dynamic" an increase of +0.57dB. That is likewise inaudible

The 876 compared to the 806: 140wpc vs. 130wpc is an increase of only +0.32dB and the dynamic rating difference is 160 vs 150wpc in increase only +0.28dB.

You might want to drop the gain just a bit.

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post #468 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekguy View Post

I just noticed this, and while I congratulate you on the 876, you will enjoy it, I'm not sure it will solve the clipping issue if you listen at a level where the loudest material drives the amp to max output.

The 806 and 876 have a tightly regulated power supplies that afford very little headroom.

The 806-- 130wpc vs. 150wpc "dynamic" an increase of only +0.62dB. That is not audible under most conditions.

The 876 -- 140wpc vs. 160 "dynamic" an increase of +0.57dB. That is likewise inaudible

The 876 compared to the 806: 140wpc vs. 130wpc is an increase of only +0.32dB and the dynamic rating difference is 160 vs 150wpc in increase only +0.28dB.

You might want to drop the gain just a bit.

will the 906 do the trick?
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post #469 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trekguy View Post

I just noticed this, and while I congratulate you on the 876, you will enjoy it, I'm not sure it will solve the clipping issue if you listen at a level where the loudest material drives the amp to max output.

The 806 and 876 have a tightly regulated power supplies that afford very little headroom.

The 806-- 130wpc vs. 150wpc "dynamic" an increase of only +0.62dB. That is not audible under most conditions.

The 876 -- 140wpc vs. 160 "dynamic" an increase of +0.57dB. That is likewise inaudible

The 876 compared to the 806: 140wpc vs. 130wpc is an increase of only +0.32dB and the dynamic rating difference is 160 vs 150wpc in increase only +0.28dB.

You might want to drop the gain just a bit.

Let me rephrase my statement cause I think I confused you guys...

The clipping is not in the audio, its the video. The BTB (blacker than black) gets clipped in the 806 even when running in "through" mode. It is a well known issue with the 806. I knew this but had never actually noticed it making a difference until I started playing video games like Call of Duty. During any scene in a dark tunnel, the really dark areas have blue artifacts in them. If i send my video signal straight from the PS3 to my display, the blue disappears.

Basically, what I'm saying is the 806 does not pass through video signals without fiddling with them somewhat and I expected more from a $700 AVR. So I decided to send it back and get an 876 for a couple hundred more from amazon. The BurrBrown and Reon chip didn't hurt either - HAHA
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post #470 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eggman51 View Post

I had some troubles with the Zoom mode. I do now have it sorted, but it took me some time to figure out how I had to tweak my devices to get it to work properly. There was a 4:3 override setting in my Motorola PVR that needed adjustment. There was a setting in my Popcorn Hour A-110 that needed to be adjusted (however that setting was not there when I initially installed the PCH, it came in a firmware upgrade). I still have zoom mode issues with 4:3 SD DVDs played through my PS3, but that is incredibly rare, so I've never really fiddled with it.

Note that my experience has been that the 4:3 override setting in the Motorola PVR is reset to a default value every time the firmware in the PVR is updated. This has happened a couple of times for me, but it's obvious when it happens and easy to change it back.

The manual has an error in it as well as the picture linked above is fundamentally flawed.

Regarding the error in the manual: it indicates you can call up the Zoom menu in a quick way. You can't. This is an error in the manual. To get to the zoom menu, you have to go into setup. It's about a 14 click process that is not very accessible.

Regarding the flaw in the above linked picture from the manual: If you look at the picture the "full" diagram assumes that the 4:3 material is vertically distorted and using full mode will horizontally stretch it and make it appear normal. The reality is the opposite, the 4:3 material is fine but using full mode stretches it horizontally.

egg

so egg, if I use the scenario I described above I should be ok right?
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post #471 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmccall View Post

Let me rephrase my statement cause I think I confused you guys...

The clipping is not in the audio, its the video. The BTB (blacker than black) gets clipped in the 806 even when running in "through" mode. It is a well known issue with the 806. I knew this but had never actually noticed it making a difference until I started playing video games like Call of Duty. During any scene in a dark tunnel, the really dark areas have blue artifacts in them. If i send my video signal straight from the PS3 to my display, the blue disappears.

Basically, what I'm saying is the 806 does not pass through video signals without fiddling with them somewhat and I expected more from a $700 AVR. So I decided to send it back and get an 876 for a couple hundred more from amazon. The BurrBrown and Reon chip didn't hurt either - HAHA

To late now but couldn't you just set the ps3 to the correct video levels instead of trying to output pc monitor levels. I mean even pc drivers now have selection for video level or pc level blacks and whites.

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post #472 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hdtv00 View Post

To late now but couldn't you just set the ps3 to the correct video levels instead of trying to output pc monitor levels. I mean even pc drivers now have selection for video level or pc level blacks and whites.

your right and I probably have my lingo mixed up. My PS3 is not set to RGB if thats what you were referring to. All my settings are correct, I had my set calibrated by David Abrams from Avical.

I probably mixed up my lingo. My point was, the receiver has been known to clip out the "blacker than black". Now the problem I had could have been something different than that, but I thought they were related.
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post #473 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mmmccall View Post

so egg, if I use the scenario I described above I should be ok right?

Well.. hehe.. I can only say that base don my personal experience I was able to make adjustments to my Popcorn Hour A110 and my Motorola Dual Tuner HD PVR (can't remember the model #) that I now get 4:3 material displayed in it's intended aspect ratio (full height with black bars down the sides) and 16:9 material displayed in it's intended aspect ratio without having to manually adjust the Onkyo zoom settings.

I set the 4:3 override to "OFF" in the Motorola PVR to achieve this.

I was a bit confused by this at first because I made the change in the Motorola menu, it worked, then the next day it reverted from OFF to "480i". However it turned out that there was a firmware update from my CableCo and it seems that particular settings is reverted to the 480i default when there are firmware updates (has happened once again since then).

Once I figured that out and got the PCH A-110 settings sorted I am very happy with the zoom issue and the 876 in general (it really does sound superb imo and the SD scaling by the Reon is very good).

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post #474 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmccall View Post

Let me rephrase my statement cause I think I confused you guys...

The clipping is not in the audio, its the video. The BTB (blacker than black) gets clipped in the 806 even when running in "through" mode. It is a well So I decided to send it back and get an 876 for a couple hundred more from amazon. The BurrBrown and Reon chip didn't hurt either - HAHA

Oh! I wondered what movie you were talking about, but decided not to ask.

Still you received a free and, even if I do say so myself, masterful, explanation of a problem you did not have.

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post #475 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

will the 906 do the trick?

Many tricks and now we know it is not the issue, but what the heck and for those who might care--

906-- 145wpc and 180wpc dynamic which is +1.5dB of headroom, and that is a almost a meaningful difference.

Compared to the 806 150 vs. 180 the difference is +0.79dB.

Is that important? Supply your own answer, using the examples provided.

My opinion is though, that every little bit helps, but that a really meaningful amount of headroom or reserve would be >1.5dB, +3dB to +6dB would be both good and uncommon in receivers; even those that brag about high current or understated power. My elderly power amp can produce +6dB of dynamic headroom for much longer periods than the small fraction of a second used by most makers today.

The 876/906 would need to output in the area of 550/600wpc to have +6dB of headroom.

Does anyone need that? Another one of those that depends questions that will be addressed by somebody else.

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post #476 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 05:29 PM
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I understand the dual HDMI outputs on the 876 will not display simultaneously.

But how easy it it to switch outputs? Suppose you have it set to display on TV1, which has been turned off, and you want it to display on TV2. Is it necessary to turn on TV1 so you can select TV2 in the onscreen menu? Somebody on another web site (I don't remember which) posted a comment that seemed to mean that. Is it true, or is it easy to switch displays via the remote without having to look at a menu?
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post #477 of 5107 Old 12-12-2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

I understand the dual HDMI outputs on the 876 will not display simultaneously.

But how easy it it to switch outputs? Suppose you have it set to display on TV1, which has been turned off, and you want it to display on TV2. Is it necessary to turn on TV1 so you can select TV2 in the onscreen menu? Somebody on another web site (I don't remember which) posted a comment that seemed to mean that. Is it true, or is it easy to switch displays via the remote without having to look at a menu?

It's not as easy as it should be. I had to use an Onkyo 905 profile for my Harmony in order to easily switch the outputs. That had a discrete code for the outputs. The 876 and 906 profiles did not. Otherwise the only way to change the outputs is via the menu system.

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post #478 of 5107 Old 12-13-2008, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by trekguy View Post

Paul, rickardl, accurately covers the issue. But there are variant approaches depending upon which device you select to do the deinterlacing. That is at the source device (player or DVR for example) at the receiver or at the display. The 906/876 will let you pass the program material to the display at the source resolution or up-convert it at the receiver.

The choice determines whether the bars are black, gray or if the image is distorted into 16x9.

I have elected not to change zoom settings on the 906, so depending on the source and whether is is HD or SD 4x3 it can be either gray or black bars.

I have an feed from the moto box to the PDP for those in the family who "just want to watch TV" and who like a full screen image. They get stretch-o-vision by default on SD channels. HD channels using black bars of course have black bars.


OK - I'm sorry to be dense but remained a little bit confused about the combined variables of zoom and scaling/de-interlacing will do on an 876. Can I ask if I can reach these states:

4:3 hardware images at 480i - s-video connections - Directtv Tivo R10, s-vhs VCR, pioneer 606 laserdisc - would like to upscale to 1080 or 720 and leave as 4x3 - preferably with grey bars but dark bars are good too
16:9 hardware at 480p - pansonic DVD changer - component connections - just upscale to 1080p (betting this is a no-brainer)
16:9 hardware at 1080i - hdmi connections - DirectTV HR20-700, DirectTV HR10-250 - upscale to 1080 but leaving at 1080i is OK
16:9 hardware at 1080p - hdmi - Samsung Blu-ray 2550 - leave the signal completely alone (a major reason I had to jump up from the 806 in my considerations)

Thank you so much for your patience and feedback.

Happy Holidays,
Paul

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post #479 of 5107 Old 12-13-2008, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by pmaddock View Post

16:9 hardware at 480p - pansonic DVD changer - component connections - just upscale to 1080p (betting this is a no-brainer)

That probably won't work. The MPAA in their overzealous anti-piracy campaign bullied manufacturers into a ban on upconverting DVDs to or from component cables.
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post #480 of 5107 Old 12-13-2008, 01:26 PM
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Well, after reading what seems to be an overkill of information, I am about to pull the trigger on a brand new 876 for our first HT system. I originally was going w/ a refurb 875, but for only $200 more, I can get a brand neww 876, it seems like a no brainer.

I do have a couple of quick questions, though, fellas. And please remember that I'm a noob when it comes to HT's in general:

1)The 876 has 2 HDMI outputs...I don't really see what the need for the 2nd output is...I guess you could use 2 tv's, but is that really common? I feel like I'm probably missing something obvious, other than the (2 are better than 1 kinda thing ).

2) How difficult is the 876 to actually learn to use. I mean, most AVR's nowadays have 3,048,439 different options and it can be quite intimidating. So, for us youngish folk who are competent at following directions, is the setup and different modes a reasonable learning curve?

Thanks and I can't wait to install out system!
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